 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: nickma
Date: 2004-12-16 07:54
Some people talk about older clarinets potentially being 'blown out', implying that after a long while a pro level instrument may lose its original qualities.
Could someone explain to me exactly what this term covers, how it happens and why?
I can certainly see how one could ruin a clarinet by 'cleaning' it with those horrible wiry things that shops used to sell in the '70s: I can't imagine any instrument surviving a regular scouring, but somehow, I don't get the impression that this is what people mean....
Nick
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-12-16 10:26
I am certainly no expert...but it's early morn and so I'll give you my thoughts. With time wood,pads and adjustments change and these may cause a change in how the instrument plays and some describe this as being blown out. Whether such an instrument can be brought back depends at least partly on the expertise of the tech you take it to.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-12-16 11:00
Do a search of this forum on the term, and you will find a lot of discussion.
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2004-12-16 11:44
I now believe 'blow out' is possible. My 9-month old A clarinet is just starting to blow in. It's an amazing phenomena, I can't really explain it, it's just loosening up, it's not so resistant, but it's maintaining it's qualities. I had always heard people talking about it previously, but had never experienced it.
Therefore I believe it may one day 'blow out'. Which is sad because it's an incredible instrument... And to think that according to IMS, it was Brannenized and then a professional rejected it. And thus I didn't pay for the Brannenizing!
__________________
Don't hate me because I play Leblanc! ![[down]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley23.gif) Buffet
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Author: joeclarinet
Date: 2004-12-16 13:34
I find that they feel "loose" after a while. Probably from the wood changing at the entrance points (the top of the upper joint) from wood rot.
Scientists don't believe in it, the real players DO.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-12-16 14:31
Perhaps not all "Real Players" do, Joe, IMVHO, its me, not the cl !! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: joeclarinet
Date: 2004-12-16 15:21
Bores change over time. Sure players change too, but the bore changes more. I discussed blow out with Backun and he agrees that the bore changes. He even measured my Clarinets so that I can see over time just how much.
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Author: William
Date: 2004-12-16 16:24
Blown out is sometimes called, "swabbed to death". Many clarinetists believe that over the years, the swab will cause a change in the clarinets bore configuration and it no longer "plays the same"--often worse. However, I am a non-believer and think that is more a result of the natural aging of the instruments wood that produces bore change and not so much the constant playing/swabbing process. Many "blown out" clarinet bores can be restored by an experianced accoustician--but, then again, doesn't "blown out" give the clarinetist (with the "bucks") just the right excuse to pick out a new set of clarinets that have those shinny new keys and that great "new clarinet" grenadilla smell.........yum!!! (hmmm......I feel a trip to IMS come'n on)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-12-16 19:27
LeWhite wrote, "I now believe 'blow out' is possible. My 9-month old A clarinet is just starting to blow in. It's an amazing phenomena, I can't really explain it, it's just loosening up, it's not so resistant....."
I would say that in this case, and almost EVERY case of instruments 'blowing in', It is the player that has changed. The player has learnt to compensate for the irregularities - in design and adjustment - in the new instrument, both by embouchure/breath pressure, and/or by pressing keys harder.
A lot of repair experience has taught me that adjustment problems exist on almost every new instrument. They almost always involve pad sealing of the normally-open keys, and these adjustments ALWAYS get worse rather than better as the instrumnet is played. However the player is taught by the clarinet, to subconsciously press the poorly adjusted keys down harder.
Post Edited (2004-12-16 19:29)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-12-16 19:41
Unless an ageing clarinet has been overhauled by a superb technician, and then found to be seriously wanting, then it cannot be justifiably labelled "blown-out".
Even then, if there are slight bore discrepancies, they may well have been there since the instrument was made, and that the particular instrument has ALWAYS been 'substandard'. Note all the differences buyers claim between new instruments when they are choosing from a group of the same model. Is it fair to label the 'duds' as having blow-out even before they were blown? No!
Another factor is that the player who has been used to an instrument for a long time, has had it overhauled, and then still claims blowout, it could well be that he is getting older and subconsciously less inclined to make the effort to accommodate the instrument's idiosyncrasies, or his expectations have altered. Certainly, a set of design compromises on another instrument may appeal simply because of the grass-on-the-other-side-of-the-fence-is-greener syndrome.
With this huge array of factors, may I suggest that perhaps almost every case of blowout is NOT a case of changes in the body/bore of the instrument.
The term is an unfortunate one, because it inherently suggests that a clarinet is systematically irrevocably destroyed by the quantity of playing it gets. As such it is misleading, and the myth aspects of it tend to be perpetuated by people who have latch onto it without consciousness of the many other possibilities for a clarinet becoming disappointing.
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Author: Robert Moody
Date: 2004-12-16 19:54
Personally having never experienced a "blown out" clarinet, I might suggest that any person who feels that their clarinet has been "blown out" allow another person of similar or higher ability play on it. If they, having no previous experience with your particular instrument, describe and explain the same issues you feel, then there may be merit to the issues existing. If not and they claim it feels normal or great, then maybe it is just you that is "blown out". *shrugs* Go buy another clarinet for you.
JMHO
Robert Moody
http://www.musix4me.com
Free Clarinet Lessons and Digital Library!
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-12-16 20:08
Do you believe in the Easter Bunny?
Do you avoid walking under ladders because it's 'bad luck'?
Do you avoid anything with the number 13?
Are you expecting Ed McMahon to knock on your door any minute with a ten million dollar check?
If you answered "yes" to any or all of the above questions, then you should also believe in that dread syndrome, the #1 killer of clarinets more than 3 years old..........
BLOWOUT!
Better go buy a new Buffet today before your R-13 "blows out" right in the middle of an important solo or audition!!!!
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-12-16 20:38
One of my Very OLD "statements of wisdom" [my terminology] was in the antique musical, Finian's Rainbow. remember it?, "and then there are those who believe in STORKS", Appro-pro [sp?]. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2004-12-16 21:42
I think people are just going with the majority now. Suddenly this thread has turned anti-blow-out.
__________________
Don't hate me because I play Leblanc! Buffet
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Author: Snowy
Date: 2004-12-17 01:39
LeWhite wrote:
> I think people are just going with the majority now. Suddenly
> this thread has turned anti-blow-out.
>
And is the truth or otherwise of the proposition to be determined by majority vote or is it able to stand on its own two feet ?
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-12-17 03:27
"Blowout"! How romantic. How scary! How horrible! It's well on the way to being movie material. Let's nurture it!
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2004-12-17 06:58
GBK that is exactly what happened to my clarinet... I don't know wyh he got this face...
Seriously, I agree with David Spiegelthal.
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Author: Igloo Bob
Date: 2004-12-17 07:34
So if blowout exists, it wouldn't effect a Greenline at all, would it? Unless it got Travolta'D, of course.
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Author: graham
Date: 2004-12-17 08:03
Bore warping, which can happen just as cracks happen, would most notably affect intonation. My understanding of what people call "blow out" is that, even if obvious things like intonation are still OK, the clarinet has lost life and resonance etc.. Somehow the wood has just, in some indefinable way, lost the plot.
In reading the various posts on this, no-one has ventured a real explanation of this. Just as no-one has explained the equally surprising concept of "blowing in".
When I was a kid I used to think that a vital aspect of a clarinet was the smoothness of the bore. Brymer wrote that it had to be mirror finish or the clarinet would sound dull. That has a good deal of logical appeal to a non-scientific person like myself. But I heard Planas and others say that it was, in fact, irrelevant that the bore was shiny smooth. So, if it is not to do with the smoothness of the bore, exactly what can it be?
I think it would help if the blow out believers explained more about the nature of their phenomenon. I don't mean statistical evidence of the effect, which might be impossible to obtain. I simply mean an explanation.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-12-17 13:25
An explanation: Clarinet manufacturers select the wood so that the top of each section is from the top-of-the-tree location of the billet. This allows the natural juices of the wood to flow back toward the root and also keeps the grain closed. Blow out occurs as a result of bell to barrel swabbing direction which opens the grain which, in turn, impedes the flow of the juices.
Bob Draznik
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Author: jjclarinet
Date: 2004-12-17 14:01
So it could be cleaned out? I still think that it's the dimensions of the entrance bore at the top of the upper joint which changes over time (wood rot). Completely drying out the tops of the joints helps a lot and as backun suggests to change the rag used for it. Do not use the swab for that work. Face makeup circular cotton pads are great for it.
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Author: hans
Date: 2004-12-17 14:04
IMO Gordon has addressed every aspect of this issue to the point of exhaustion.
I particularly liked his excellent criterion for defining "blown out", but it creates a problem for those who want to justify buying a new instrument on that basis: they will need to get the old one overhauled first.
Hans
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Author: graham
Date: 2004-12-17 15:01
Ken is right but that is not "blow out", since it is reversable. To change instruments because the tone holes have filled with debris is the equavalent of buying a new car because you have filled the ash tray.
As for the "juices" theory, I don't want to sound too much like a nagging child, but exactly why does this juice flow affect the sound?
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-12-17 15:22
I know MY sound is adversely affected if the juice I had for breakfast that morning flows the wrong way. Maybe that's what BobD meant.
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Author: sbbishop
Date: 2004-12-17 15:40
In order to relieve any stress on clarinetists who have a "blown out" instrument, I will accept any "blown out" clarinet sent to me and will assure that it will find a good home, with loving care, until it finally expires.
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Author: nickma
Date: 2004-12-17 21:44
Brymer makes the point of insisting swabbing is done from barrel/ top joint down, not from the bell. I didn't know what through. I guess I do know.
Clearly blowout isn't a 'sit on the fence' kind of issue. Personally, I didn't get the blowout thing, 'cos even with little nicks on the bore itself instruments seem to play fine. Glassy smooth makes me feel better/ less insecure about owning a clarinet I will admit, but I'm not sure it's the prerequisite for great sound that some people make out.
Knackered I can understand. Split, abused, scoured, and spoiled as a result. Overused, the blow that broke the camel's back, the puff that blew the heart and soul out of that poor old billet of wood....well, it's tough to swallow isn't it?
Nick
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-12-17 23:12
And then there is the story about oboe players dragging steel wool through the bore to roughen up the surface to make a new instrument play better.
Regarding the nature of the surface...
We must remember that the actual flow of air down the bore is very slow, and almost certainly irrelevant to the sound. The flow is a waste product of the means of creating the sound at the reed, and even with no flow at all, and a different way of setting the air column in vibration, the sound would probably be the same, all other parameters equal.
Apart from this irrelevant air flow down the bore, what happens inside the bore?
In the bore there is a longitudinal wave - see http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/Demos/waves/wavemotion.html for animated description - travelling down the bore, at the same time as an identical wave (having been 'reflected' from the lower end of the air column) is travelling up the bore. The end result is a 'wave' that is not travelling at all - a 'standing wave'. See "Two sine waves travelling in opposite directions create a standing wave" at http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/Demos/superposition/superposition.html
or at http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/gbssci/phys/mmedia/waves/swf.html
In a standing wave, some regions in the air column ("nodes"), the air is stagnant. In others (e.g. especially near the reed, but also to varying lesser degrees in MOST of the air column) there is rapid oscillating change in air pressure, from above 'atmospheric' to below.
Now just imagine this... A short cylinder of air, say 1/2" long, within the bore, where the air pressure changes from higher to lower, to higher, to lower.....etc, very rapidly. Just how far does one have to stretch the imagination to believe that microsopic changes in the surface that contains this cylinder will have a dramatic effect on that oscillating air pressure?
Any acoustician present, corrrect my notions if they are wrong.
On the other hand, if I polish my bore to a mirror finish, and perhaps spend hours doing it, and spend those hours working up a BELIEF that my time is not wasted, and that the sound must be better when I have finished, then by the time I get to test-play the instument, I have subconsciously programmed myself to get embouchure etc the best it can possibly be, and I will indeed play better, or at least BELIEVE that I do.
Any psychologist present, please correct my notions if they are wrong. :-)
Not that there is anything WRONG with making ourselves feeel good through our belief systems.
Any theologian present, please correct my notions if they are wrong.
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Author: ken
Date: 2004-12-18 02:26
I recall a past poster (probably experts GBK or Ken Shaw) attributing the "blow out" phenomena to a build up of calcium-like film or plaque. Over time, the matter forms and binds to tone hole walls like contact cement. This condition in turn, presumably causes a dull, lackluster tone, response and flattened pitch. However, if routinely scrapped/scooped out, the affects are neutralized and the horn returns to its previous playing characteristics.
I actually took this advice a year ago by servicing my 1973 B-flat Buffet. I scraped copious amounts of a mysterious white powder from tones holes and register vent. And, when playing, the instrument did improve and "seemingly" revert in time; specifically, a less edgy 3rd register, high C to double C and generally freer blowing, particularly in throat tones. Also, all B-flat vent standard/alternate fingering combinations cleared up nicely.
I'm not completely sold, but no longer the militant "blown out" pro-advocate I used to be. I think one of the reasons this subject continues to remain a hot topic is the "feel factor" and/or "I know what I know" arguement but can't readily define it. And, further confounding the masses are world-class players on both sides of the issue, particularly those who promote the notion by swapping out their horns every 5-7 years. v/r Ken
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-12-18 05:11
The reference is probably to the post near the end of the thread:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=61660&t=61064
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