 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: jim S.
Date: 2004-11-21 23:34
I just heard Don Byron playing Giant Steps on NPR. What a disappointment! I had always heard that he was phenomenal. All I heard was thin tone, bad technique in places, and bad intonation in the altissimo.
The treatment of Giant Steps didn't knock me out either. Did something happen to him or has his rep been overblown all along?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-11-21 23:53
Most people left early during his performance at Clarinetfest this year. Unprepared, badly mixed, squeaks, squawks, and from the audience, groans.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-11-22 02:10
I heard him about 5 years ago just when he was getting into his "bug music" era.
It was crap. That's really unfortunate as he used to be a monster player. My brother-in-law went to NEC with him and he was a really hot player.
When I went all I heard was a lot of atonal B.S.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2004-11-22 02:44
Wow, David, I didn't think the stuff on the "Bug Music" cd was at all atonal B.S. Maybe he had already recorded the Bug Music stuff and was then getting into the atonal stuff, which did come a little later.
Have you heard the recording(s) he did with the Klezmer Conservatory Band?
Katrina
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-11-22 02:48
Actually bug music was "normal". So I guess it was the period after that one.
Yes, his klezmer stuff was great!
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Author: Steve Epstein
Date: 2004-11-22 04:57
I heard the same show on NPR. It's one of those things. The guy was playing avant garde and you either liked it or you didn't. I liked it. I thought, well, if he is controlling every pop / squeek / noise that comes out of the horn, then he is phenomenal. Of course, if not, then it is BS. But I gave him the benefit of the doubt. It was obvious from his style and that of the pianist that this was not a "standard" kind of jazz performance.
Steve Epstein
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-11-22 05:01
Actually, Bug Musik is my favorite of his albums. And he wasn't bad on the Kansas City soundtrack.
I'm not sure whether he's slipping, or whether it's the fact that so much of his material and style is a real challenge to the instrument. Makes me wonder what Eric Dolphy might've done on the regular B-flat clar.
I was playing something on a combo gig the other night that put me in concert A-flat and G-flat Dorian, and I've gotta tell you that I was being VERY careful and anything but free and loose--and wishing all the time that I had a sax handy! The pinkies are still trembling.
It's hard for me to imagine running Giant Steps on clarinet, even just doing standard patterns like 1-2-3-5 or the like. Sounds like a good exercise to chew on, though.
Allen Cole
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2004-11-22 05:51
I saw Don Byron live once in "Mahler In Jazz" and I remember I liked him. That was quite a few years ago though so I don't know what happened since.
David you kind of make it sound like atonal and avangarde music is bad, but you only meant that it was bad performed by him right?
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Author: FrankM
Date: 2004-11-22 16:27
How does one judge?......How do you recognize bad, poorly performed avant garde atonal music?...I mean, how are we, as listeners, to know what the performer was trying to do?...I'm unfamiliar with Byron's new stuff, but I was thinking of Coltrane in the mid to late 60s....
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Author: CPW
Date: 2004-11-22 16:33
"If it sounds good, it is good"
Problem is deciding if it sounds good....to you.
Subjectivism is reality, at least in music
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-11-22 16:58
Clarnibass, some is good, some is bad. I've heard good atonal jazz and garbage. But his performance didn't have the ensemble tightness that I would expect
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Author: Gardini
Date: 2004-11-22 18:15
I saw Byron perform Bug Music a couple of years ago and I loved it. I have taken up clarinet late in life (after 40) - having spent my adult life as an "avant guard" visual artist. My musical tastes somewhat parallel with my tastes in visual art. I love the classics, but am more interested in "new” work, and raw ethnic works. I am old fashion in that I believe that good - or more importantly; appropriate technique is necessary for good art. What I really like about Byron is his creativity - he is doing things on a clarinet that few, if any others have ever tried. Not all of it succeeds, but hey, he is creating art, not just interpreting it. I don't think that the same standards can be used for judging someone's interpretation of Mozart's K.581 as Coltrane's "Giant Steps". I would have loved to hear Byron's version, hopefully I can find it on NPR's site.
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Author: frank
Date: 2004-11-22 19:16
I have been a Don Byron fan from the beginning. I also know him personally and share some mutual friends with him. I felt I should respond to this post in defense of Don and the music. Firstly, everyone is entitled to their opinions and I respect that. It does sadden me though to see a certain bias towards his type of evolving music with some of you. I was at Clarinetfest as well... and I thought the performance was great! Making "squeaks and squaks, etc..." doesn't mean a thing. It's not like he was playing Mozart or something. He was making a statement musically, not trying to be "clean". To top it off, I don't remember hearing that many squeaks either. Never judge pop music (or jazz) with classical ears. It simply isn't the same. One shows their ignorance with making that sort of comparison. Music can be touching even if its not perfect. I thought the crowd at the Fest that night was lame, uptight, overly stiff, closed minded, and rude. Was the crowd expecting to hear Don play dixieland or something? The band was first rate. The pianist is a monster player, as was the rest of the group. Don has a unique sound. It is HIS sound. It isn't Marcellus, nor would he want to sound like that. It's a great jazz sound. Why? Because it is UNIQUE!!!! That is what jazz is all about.
Being free, improvising, having a voice. Mark, how was what he played unprepared? Maybe we were in two different concerts. He likes to keep it light and intimate onstage. Maybe that is what you meant. It was loud in there though. I wouldn't argue with that. The crowd was filled with mainly classical people and the elderly. Certainly not a great demographic of cutting edge jazz listeners. Don and I were hanging out a day or so earlier and he talked to me about what he was going to play. He didn't want to water anything down and he KNEW that most of the crowd would probably not dig his music. He thought the fest was very uptight and discriminating. I have to agree with him on that. I respect that he was true to himself. That is a real artist. Not a player, but an artist. He also wondered why that he has never been invited to a Fest in the 10 or so years he has been consistently winning the clarinet poll in Downbeat, made numerous critically acclaimed recordings, has played with everyone and everywhere. He is a sensitive man and it does affect him to a degree. He wants to be embraced by the clarinet community, which has yet to fully happen.
Secondly, never judge a player on one live performance. I didn't hear Don play Giant Steps on NPR so I can't comment. Everyone has a bad night sometimes. Each of our tastes are different in regards to sound, style, etc. Don has had a long career and played with some the most important people who are alive today in the world of jazz, klezmer, latin music, and some classical. He did not get where he is by being a hack. Anytime I have been critizied for anything or have seen criticizms take place, I do one most important thing... I consider the source. I am not a huge fan of crazy, avant gard, pointless music either. Don is out there sometimes, but there is always a melody or theme in his music. It is never mindless. Talk to him for 10 minutes about music and then see what you think. That dude knows music! He loves the clarinet, but he loves music more. When you are on that level, the clarinet is secondary. There have been many times where I didn't like certain type of music or a piece on first hearing. Octandre by Varese was one of them. I love that piece now and have performed it many times. I am always open to the idea of being convinced otherwise. Closed mindedness is a sickness and often enough, there is no cure. Most of the great players I know are not closed minded at all. They are smart enough sometimes to know that just because they may not understand something at that time, it doens't make it bad. Bonade said the same thing in his articles in the woodwind magazine.
The source in this thread is considered and it is amatuer at best.
Post Edited (2004-11-22 19:23)
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Author: jim S.
Date: 2004-11-22 19:36
Yes, I am an "amatuer", but I still have ears. "Bug Music" sounds great to me (have just listened to a snatch of it on my computer), but this performance as I heard it over the radio just amazed me with its poor tone quality and flubbed technique in places. For those who want to listen on the internet, the site is:
http://www.nextbigthing.org/
For some reason, the performance on my tinny computer speakers didn't sound as bad as it did on my better speakers. They seem to filter out some of the awfulness of his current tone and technique. Granted, jazz is not about tone and technique, but Byron seems to have it all when he wants to. I don't think he is practicing.
Maybe it doesn't matter. After all no one seemed to criticize Miles for constantly going sharp when he used his mute. It grated on my "amatuer" ears nevertheless.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-11-22 20:23
Hello Frank.
Just a little background on me.
I played jazz (progressive) on bass for some years professionally - it was a a good portion of my income. I'm not afraid to listen to good music, avante-garde or otherwise. I've enjoyed "Bug Music". Classical music came to me in my 40s; prior to that it was more jazz & rock than anything else.
What I heard at Clarinetfest from Don was, in my opinion, not worth hearing again.
But that's my opinion. Others may disagree.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-11-22 20:41
I just listened to the giant steps on the internet. I didn't have a problem with it at all - was good! The live performance at Haverford College (jeez, it may have been 12 years ago come to think of it) I didn't like.
But I wouldn't ride him for the NPR Giant Steps as it was pretty good playing. If it were symetrical and perfect it wouldn't really be jazz.
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Author: frank
Date: 2004-11-22 20:52
I would never tell someone their opinion is wrong, because that would negate the idea of having an opinion in the first place. There are misguided, uneducated, and unthoughtful opinions though. Also, there are plenty of amateur players who listen to and understand more music than some professional caliber players. That was not my point at all with the amateur statement. An amateur tends to not understand the ins and outs of daily playing and performing for the public. Out of 100 concerts a year, you are bound to have (hopefully not often) squeaks, bad technique, bad sound, mistakes, and some unexplainable things happen when you play. Live performances aren't always as perfect as recordings make them out to be. Sometimes they are better. Most of the time, they cannot measure up to the technical perfection of an engineered recording.
My issue was with the flippant way Don Byron's playing and life's work was "judged". There are many levels out there. I would regard the opinions of musicians like Jack DeJohnette, Cassandra Wilson, Bill Frisell, etc. - all of whom Don has played/recorded with over the years - over a amatuer or local jazz club player. And... Byron has been written about and featured in nearly every jazz/music magazine and major city newspapers in the world for at least 10 years. Plus... television like the Tonight Show. Apparently he is doing something right. Legendary performers DO NOT play with hacks. I highly doubt DeJohnette or Cassandra Wilson were put off by Byron's "squeaks" and "bad technique". This is the reason why I posted in the first place because in my opinion, most of the "opinions" I've heard are not up to snuff. I feel his playing was and is being judged on a classical jump off point. In the end, you either like someones art or you don't. That is something nobody can argue with. Check out his website if you are interested. See what he has done for jazz and the clarinet. You might be amazed. BTW, I am a classically trained clarinetist with an interest in jazz. I make a living solely on playing my ax.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2004-11-23 00:33
I listened to the performance and found it very enjoyable. It sounds to me like the guy has good chops. I have always admired his playing as an original and I think that he is a very fine versatile musician. I really appreciate the fact that Byron is always experimenting and pushing the boundaries. (Of course, I am sure Don is not staying up nights worrying about what I think) He seems to find something new to explore on each new project and does each with conviction. It is great to hear someone playing the clarinet as a contemporary instrument with great expressive possibilities and range.
I wonder if there is anyone who has not suffered squeaks and squawks? It is one of the dangers of the instrument, especially when you push some things a bit. I have heard some really great classical players do the same. Within the last year or two, I heard one of our legendary clarinet soloists play the Copland in Carnegie and let out a couple that a middle school student would envy. Is that the only judge of who is or is not a good player? On the other hand, Charlie Parker could squeak with the best of them. Listen especially to some out takes.
I think that too often we are guilty of trying to fit square pegs into round holes. I think that sometimes we have to look beyond the clarinet and listen to the music. Sure, I suppose there are always areas you could criticize, but I think that we could grow much more as musicians when we look for what an artist has to "say".
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Author: frank
Date: 2004-11-23 00:37
I just listened to the recording of Giant Steps. Please tell me where the technique is bad? When he starts rippin of runs at the end? the lyrical section? I personally didn't hear "bad technique" in that performance. I thought it was a pretty unique and interesting version of the classic Coltrane tune. Also, he sums up why he played it like that at the end. Did you listen to that? Like I said without even hearing Don say it: he is playing music HIS way and trying to be different in sound and style. I think his playing speaks for itself.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-11-23 03:44
Hmmm...now that I know Giant Steps is available online, I'll try to google it.
I think that an important point her is that of being more in love with music than with the clarinet. A while back we were bandying about the world "Clarinetism" I think.
Don Byron often plays some outside and angry stuff. A friend of mine saw him a a clinic 5 or 10 years ago at Virginia Union University. Don was getting visibly annoyed with some kind of question that seemed more like a statement than a question.
He then launched into a piece that sounded like catfight at supersonic speed. My friend recognized the chord changes as "Can't Help Myself" (Four Tops).
Expressing anger through the instrument is one thing that is much better accepted on the sax than on other instruments. Ugly noises go hand in hand with this, and it's hard for some of us to take. I recently attended a masterclass in which Richard Stoltzman talked some about this issue and tried to get a very reluctant student to make that horn sound violent. I remember a friend in college trying to get that rage in a certain solo from Petrouchka without crossing the line of good technical performance.
As with Stoltzman, I don't care much for Byron's work, but that's more a matter of my taste than of his ability. My hat is off to anyone who can blow clarinet on Giant Steps, so I'll look forward to hearing that. He may well have been lousy on the live thing. Stoltzman didn't go over well at his performance following the masterclass that I mentioned.
Allen Cole
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2004-11-23 07:03
I just listened to the Giant Steps recording and I didn't like it at all. In the last few days I listened to some stuff by Don Byron and really liked it, but this Giant Steps is not good. The version by Coltrane is so much better, and there was nothing original or new in Byron's version that made it interesting. His playing was still great on the clarinet, and from listening to what he says and also how he speaks in general he sounds like a great and modest person. Everyone has a bad day and I guess that was one of them. A lot of other things I heard from Byron were original, interesting and worth listening to.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2004-11-23 14:12
I think one thing for sure, it is easy to get bogged down in comparing to Coltrane...remember the idea is to be original/not a clone!
As to Coltrane, I like the piece but really find Coltrane's saxophone sound not my cup of tea..he has a very thin upper register.
Coltrane on Soprano saxophone is among the worst sounds I have ever heard..love his ideas but not his sound. As an improviser Trane was a genius...
As to Byron..some players have good and bad days...I like Byron's Bug Music a good deal though.
David Dow
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-11-23 15:07
BTW, can't find that Giant Steps performance. Can someone post a link?
Allen Cole
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2004-11-23 15:09
DDow I disagree with you on Coltrane's sound, but that is your taste I can respect it. I even know someone who simply doesn't like the sound of saxophone at all. I persoanlly like Coltrane's sound.
Maybe you missed that I wrote: "The version by Coltrane is so much better, and there was nothing original or new in Byron's version that made it interesting."
You replied: "remember the idea is to be original/not a clone."
So you can see I totally agree with you on this. I never said he should sound like Coltrane. What I meant is Byron's version didn't really add anything new or interesting to this song. If he sounded like Coltrane that would be even worse, but in that performance he did nothing special.
Just to add so I don't give the wrong impression, I usually really like Don Byron. Only that specific performance was bad.
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Author: Ron Jr.
Date: 2004-11-23 15:50
I heard that same piece on NPR. At the time I didn't know that the clarinetist was Don Byron. This morning I just commented to a co-worker (an oboist) on this "lousy piece of jazzish music that I just heard on NPR. The notes were all over the place and the clarinetist's intonation was really bad." Now after discovering that it was DB I don't know what to say.
I have one of his albums, Romance with the Unseen" and while I don't love it, I can appreciate his technical skills. He has also recorded extensively with Cassandra Wilson and at the time I enjoyed his playing very much. Sometimes he provides textural background for Cassandra's silky voice, sometimes he takes a temporary lead role, and sometimes he sounds like a tropical bird - very cool.
However, because Cassandra is the lead vocalist, she tempers DB's flamboyance and keeps it musical. I think that when DB plays as a soloist, he becomes too much, too intense, too all over the place, and too annoying. Kind of like solo drums: after a while you just want it to stop and you're thankful when it does.
I pride myself for being open minded musically and often listen to music that I don't at first like but want to learn to like. One time while listening to DB's music with the idea "well since he is one of the leading Jazz/Avant garde Clarinetists, I should listen to this." When my friend arrived for dinner he said: "WHAT is this music!??" I said, "Yeah. I've been meaning to turn it off for a while now." And I did. What a relief.
Ron Jr.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2004-11-25 18:32
Coltranes Soprano sax work is awful...I just can't get over his sound..it is gross!
David Dow
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2004-11-26 06:15
Again I have to disagree, but you have to agree that he was one of the best musicians and players ever. I have a CD of coltrane on soprano and the music is so good, that even you would have to ignore his sound (which I think is great by the way). Without Coltrane I bet 90% of soprano sax players wouldn't be playing soprano. I'm also sure he chose his sound on purpose, because it fitted the music he made, it's not that he couldn't get a different sound.
Who do you lie on soprano? I bet even they would say Coltrane was better 
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Author: Ed
Date: 2004-11-26 12:45
I agree Coltrane's ideas were great, but also found his tone on soprano abrasive. For beauty of tone on soprano, Branford Marsalis is hard to beat. He's a damn good player too. Wayne Shorter and the late Steve Lacy would be good examples as well.
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Author: Eileen
Date: 2004-11-29 21:24
I've seen Don Bryon play live several times. The first was with his "Latin Jazz" album (forget the title) in a small club. Also saw him play with a silent film at the Museum of Contemporary Art in Chicago and as part of an avant-garde ensemble at the Chicago Cultural Center. I have enjoyed his performances (even the more squawking ones) and have picked up a few CDs. He does flit from style to style (part of what makes him interesting) and I have taken a pass on a few CD's/performances which sounded tedious. His eclecticism may account for his reputation. If you hated this manifestation, just wait for the next transformation.
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Author: John Morton
Date: 2004-11-30 21:15
I am another whose favorite Byron is Bug Music. I came away from the latest DB show with increased respect for (and interest in) this guy. It was my first chance to hear him, and fortunately I arrived an hour early for the lecture/inteview which preceded the show.
The theme of the current group (called "Ivey-Divey") is Lester Young, a favorite figure of mine. I had some trepidation about going to see them, knowing that the last thing Byron would do is play like Lester Young for 2 hrs. DB listened to (and sang along with) two recorded examples of LY, and spoke informally at great length. I was taken by his sincerity and evident depth of knowledge, but of course his credibility hinged on his resume and the concert that followed.
The music was thoroughly modern, a trio playing as co-equals (Jason Moran, piano, Jack DeJohnette, drums) from three generations of age. It was left as an exercise for the audience how it all related to Lester Young, but for me the treatment of "I Cover the Waterfront" made the evening. The introductory talk definitely helped me to see DB's qualifications for this undertaking, and my "retro" preferences in jazz never got in the way of enjoying the music.
John Morton
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