 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: wjk
Date: 2004-11-09 16:22
I spend a great deal of time in my car---so I am considering upgrading its audio system. I do notice a lot of road noise and buzzes/rattles that detract from the listening experience. Do others have this? Would shielding the door panels where the speakers are eliminate resonances and quiet down the cabin?
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-11-09 17:32
Hi,
Unless you have a Lexus 400 or a similar luxury car, there is always a bit of road noise to contend with in most automobiles. I'm sure there is a point of diminishing returns but I'd approach it from the other end and use a bit more volume so those dbs cover the road noise.
I'm pretty discriminating as far as car tunes and for what I listen to, the stock Bose Acura TLS system is pretty good (a purist would disagree). Car sound systems have come a long way in the last decade.
HRL
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2004-11-09 18:16
The auto industry term is "NVH" - "noise, vibration & harshness". Is the root cause the quality of your current stereo or the NVH?
Your listening experience will be better with the stock audio system in a car with fewer noises. Otherwise, the music will have to be louder to cover the other noises - not the best idea for your hearing.
|-(8^)
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-11-09 18:18
The solution to all your problems if you are willing to put the work in:
http://www.dynamat.com/
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Author: LeeB
Date: 2004-11-10 00:48
Here's something that some of my fellow audio engineer friends have tried...
Do you happen to own a pair of custom made, high-quality hearing protectors? They're a good thing to have in lots of situations (loud concerts, plane trips, loud noise environments, etc.). Lots of musicians and engineers get the type that's custom molded to your ear, and have interchangeable attenuation capsules that cut down sound incrementally. The capsules are designed to attenuate sound in a flat manner across the frequency spectrum.
Anyway, if you have this type of hearing protector, they can improve your listening experience in a less than perfect auto environment. Simply wear the hearing protectors as you drive. With the hearing protectors in, road noise and other extraneous noise will be cut down significantly. Then, simply turn up your car's audio system to the level you desire. The result: your ratio of music to road noise will increase.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-11-10 00:51
Wearing anything that blocks sound to both ears may be construed as illegal, depending on local laws.
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Author: ned
Date: 2004-11-10 03:44
''Simply wear the hearing protectors as you drive. With the hearing protectors in, road noise and other extraneous noise will be cut down significantly. Then, simply turn up your car's audio system to the level you desire.''
This sounds like quite a dangerous practice to me!! I'd rather be able to concentrate on the road when I drive - you don't live near me I hope. It's illegal for a driver to use a mobile phone in a moving car in Australia too - as equally distracting as your suggested practice too, I suspect.
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Author: Jim E.
Date: 2004-11-10 03:49
Though very common, the doors are a terrible place for speakers. The door compartment adds noise to the sound, and even piercing the trim panel will allow sound from inside the door into the cabin. Also, the doors get wet, and the constant slamming can damage sensitive speakers. On top of that, most aim the sound into your knee.
Check for factory locations on the back shelf (sedans) or the back pillars (wagons and trucks) as well as the dash, but be VERY careful in air bag equipted cars (most since 1994, and some before that.) Use foam baffles behind speakers in doors and trunks.
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Author: VermontJM
Date: 2004-11-10 10:50
I have decided that the rattling noises are best dealt with by turning up the volume. I have found a few places where a well placed nickel or penny (jammed between one rattling part and another) solve the issue quite well. That's my "poor music teacher/music student" fix on a lease vehicle that I will lose money on if I upgrade...
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-11-10 10:52
Hi John,
While I am not an acoustical engineer, I'm not certain that using the sponge ear plugs (the ones that you knead into a thin, rolled cylinder and then insert in each ear before they slowy expand) are all that dangerous. In avaition training, we use them all the time because of the excessive amount of noise that is present in the cabin of a non-pressurized airplane.
The result is extremely clear radio hearing - granted, the volume must be raised - and clearer understanding between student and instructor (you do need to raise your voice a tad). Often when flying on a prop-driven commuter airplane, such plugs are passed out to passengers.
I tried a little experiment once. Using the same ear plugs in my car, I listened to the stereo and it was very clean sounding. I rolled down the window and could hear cars passing fine but there was no road or wind noise.
I have used the same ear plugs while in a hotel. I sleep much better since I do not hear certain frequency sounds like people walking the halls, elevators running, etc. The alarm, telephone, and my wife's voice come through just fine.
Exactly which part(s) of the audio spectrum is/are blocked, I do not know but the things I needed to hear were there so...
HRL
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2004-11-10 11:46
I drive 95 miles (153km) a day on the freeway with ear plugs in, and I have to be careful. I have tried a lot of different brands of plugs, and they all have similar issues, including the custom-fitted ones. They tend to cut certain frequencies and not others. When I am in a really noisy environment, I will put in the foam plugs, and wear muff-style ear protectors over them - this will kick out both highs and lows. (NB: It is illegal to wear muff-style hearing protectors while driving in my state.)
If I crank the volume up with the plugs in, my ears will ring just as if I didn't have them in. This is true for audio, and also in my case for 2-way radio. I set the volume for a comfortable level, and then knock it down a notch. The vehicle in question, a Dodge Stratus, is my middling choice between comfort and economy. Its replacement, whenever that will be, will probably lean more on the side of comfort.
Once again, either fix the rattles or get a quieter car, then keep the volume level moderate - your ears will thank you.
|-(8^)
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Author: LeeB
Date: 2004-11-10 12:17
<<''Simply wear the hearing protectors as you drive. With the hearing protectors in, road noise and other extraneous noise will be cut down significantly. Then, simply turn up your car's audio system to the level you desire.''
This sounds like quite a dangerous practice to me!! I'd rather be able to concentrate on the road when I drive - you don't live near me I hope.>>
Not dangerous at all. The hearing protectors merely attenuate road noise. It would be no different than driving in an expensive, quiet, sound-isolated automobile. Think about it. Someone driving a top-of-the-line Mercedes is going to have a harder time hearing outside sounds (police and emergency vehicles, etc.) than a person driving a cheap economy model. Do they ban fancy cars and mandate driving with open windows in Australia?
The loudness level is relative. You don't have to crank things up as loud as they'll go.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-11-10 12:45
LeeB wrote:
> It would be no different than driving in an
> expensive, quiet, sound-isolated automobile.
Not correct.
> Think about it.
> Someone driving a top-of-the-line Mercedes is going to have a
> harder time hearing outside sounds (police and emergency
> vehicles, etc.) than a person driving a cheap economy model.
I work for a car company, and have some knowledge of the NVH problems. A "quiet car" is not designed to eliminate outside sounds completely, but to bring down objectionable noises to a psychologically insignificant level (it's a lot more complex that just db levels). If you've ever been in a luxury automobile with the windows up, you'd find that you can easily hear horns and sirens, but can converse at normal volumes.
By design.
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Author: LeeB
Date: 2004-11-10 13:55
<<If you've ever been in a luxury automobile with the windows up, you'd find that you can easily hear horns and sirens, but can converse at normal volumes.>>
I imagine there's a high degree of engineering applied to the problem. I'd still maintain that windows on a cheap car that don't seal properly would let in more siren sounds and horn honks than a hermetically sealed luxury car. Wind noise, mechanical noise, etc. would all be factors influencing the amount of important noise to nonessential noise. There would be many variables. For instance, a cheap car at a stoplight would most likely have a higher ratio of siren/honk to road noise than the expensive car. As speed and wind conditions increased, the expensive car would have more of an advantage.
Regarding hearing protectors, you can still easily hear horns and sirens with quality units.
In the context of this thread, I'd say both cases are probably moot. If you have an impressive sound system in your car and listen at significant sound levels (as people who spend lots of money on fancy car sound systems do), sirens and horns will be significantly masked. Driving with no music or talk radio playing is definitely safer from an awareness standpoint (providing you don't get bored and doze off).
(For the record, I personally drive a Ford Econoline van and listen to progressive AM talk radio with no hearing protectors. It keeps me PLENTY awake these days, and I never miss a siren or honk.)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-11-10 15:00
Don't forget also that the sounds come from different SIDES of the car. As mentioned above, Dynamat is used under your carpeting. It makes the floor a little thicker which (A) helps keep the road noise (from the tires, and anything else underneath you) down, and (B) helps shield some of the heat from your transmission (which can really toast up your car!).
I (for a brief amount of time) had a car without a carpet at all. And I sufferred from increases at both.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: TeayotaSoupra
Date: 2004-11-10 16:30
Actually you can buy dynamat in many forms.. for your door, trunk, floor as you stated and now they also have something like it all in a spray can that you can use anywhere..
It is a good form of quieting things down but can get a bit expencive..
Upgrading your system could work too because a factory system only produces so many sound waves. Units such as Alpine have a feature that you can use that widens the range of frequencys. Upgrading the speakers (in most cases) allows the sounds to come out more crisp and clear. Your stock speakers are normally made from cheap paper like material.. that keeps the speakers from flexing to produce the sounds as good.
so many options..
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Author: Stepan
Date: 2004-11-10 17:44
OH MY GOD!!!
It must be evident that you will hear NOTHING from outside a car when you wear hearing protectors and listen music over it!!!
I wish LeeB (and others who need it) to find themselves in situation when they desperately need someone to hear their hooter and that IDIOT in front of them will hear nothing because he wears hearing protection and listenes music and has happy smile on his face!
Post Edited (2004-11-10 20:23)
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2004-11-10 18:11
I agree that it is good to be able to hear what is going on outside the car.
But it is scarcely essential to safety. I don't know what the law might be in the USA or Oz, but in the UK it is perfectly legal for deaf people to drive.
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2004-11-10 18:16
Those of us who drive convertibles with their tops down as often as possible put up with a lot of wind noise, but have no problem hearing sirens.
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Author: wjk
Date: 2004-11-10 20:19
Is it really too much for me to hope that the inside of my car have Carnegie Hall acoustics as I am tooling down the Long Island Expressway?
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-11-10 21:59
wjk wrote:
> as I am tooling down the Long
> Island Expressway?
Tooling? Only if you call 15 mph (24 kph) tooling.
Me? I'm usually crawling down the LIE.
I often wonder where everyone is going at 3AM ...GBK 
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2004-11-11 21:21
To quote my mentor,
"For a slight additional charge, anything is possible."
We should start with some fundamental descriptions to provide salient help;
What vehicle are you driving?
What is the overall condition?
What tires do you have on the vehicle? (This is where I would start, to reduce overall road noise.)
Do you have effluvia rolling around in the back seat?
It's amazing how much noise two soft drink cups generate when rattling together in sympathy.
What gear have you already installed?
Are you considering purchase of a new, or newer vehicle?
The Nissan Maxima and Scion have superior factory sound systems...
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Author: LeeB
Date: 2004-11-11 22:10
Synonymous Botch wrote:
> Do you have effluvia rolling around in the back seat?
"Effluvia" almost sounds like a name parents would give their daughter during the 1800's -- maybe call her "Effy" for short. That, of course, would put a different spin on your query.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-11-11 22:14
"Do you have effluvia rolling around in the back seat?"
I thought that was the thing in the back of your throat that hung down :-).
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Author: ned
Date: 2004-11-12 02:13
No, that's the uvula, ''a conical projection from the posterior edge of the middle of the soft palate..........'' Stedman's Medical Dictionary 27th Edition, Lippincott Williams & Wilkins, 2000
It's useful for making the growl effect on the clarinet, if you have the need.
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Author: wjk
Date: 2004-11-12 13:10
The car is a new Volvo S80---I believe Michelin tires are stock.
Part of the problem may be that service had to remove door panels to fix locks and window systems (shouldn't have to be done on a new car in my opinion). This introduced a buzz in the door panel that they are trying to resolve......
"said wjk on his quest to hear Marcellus with pristine clarity on the Long Island Expressway."
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Author: Malcolm Martland
Date: 2004-11-12 13:52
How do you play the clarinet while driving? I find the steering wheel gets in the way, especially on corners! Manual gear changes in right hand drive cars are something else too. I suppose in left hand drives you could gear shift when playing with just the left hand - would need good timing though!
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Author: wjk
Date: 2004-11-12 14:41
I wanna hear Coombs with clarity
and clarinet car stereo sounds that are clear and true
On the way to the Hamptons
For lessons with "you know who" !
Post Edited (2004-11-12 14:42)
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2004-11-12 15:51
Okay, so now the picture is clearer...
I would recommend a trip to your friendly neighborhood Car Audio installer for some professional sound tweaks... there is a product called Dynamat that is applied inside door panels (and elsewhere) to dampen noise and rattles.
The S80 has a decent stock system, so lowering the noise floor should help.
If your Michis are M+S rated - they're pretty loud. Try Nokkian or Gislaved tires this Winter for best grip and a quiet ride...http://www.nokiantyres.com/
they're very soft, so get them changed out prior to 50 degree (f) weather.
FYI - I have just installed MBQuart aftermarket speakers in place of my ageing stock speakers in my SAAB and it was a marked difference.
If you spend more than 2 hours in your car, each day - the investment in aftermarket gear may make the ride more tolerable, if not pleasant.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-11-12 16:25
To quote my mentor,
"For a slight additional charge, anything is possible."
Rock of ages cleft for me,
for a slightly higher fee?
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Author: wjk
Date: 2004-11-12 20:38
P.S. Went to the dealer, had insulation placed in door. Now, cabin is quiet and I can enjoy Marcellus. However, door actuator now does not function. I have a quiet car that has a dysfunctional door actuator. Back to the dealer....
.....said wjk on his endless quest for a quiet car cabin......
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The Clarinet Pages
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