 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: graham
Date: 2005-12-06 07:37
I played the bass in Rach 2nd Symphony at the weekend, and he leaves the bass out of the last seven bars of the piece. Just as the orchestra is straining to produce the most climactic ending, a massive tutti fortissimo, the bass just sits silently. It seems he forgot to write a part for it at that point.
It reminds me of the bass/clarinet part in Mahler 1st. The bass plays some quite exposed stuff early in the first movement but then sits with nothing to do for the remaining 20 minutes. It seems Mahler forgot to use it.
I have never played the Alpine Symphony, but went to a performance by the LSO recently that was terrific, but it seemed the bass was heavily involved for only half the piece and then sat silent (with the exception of perhaps three notes) while crashing storm scenes went on around him, with every other player blowing or scraping flat out.
Why do composers forget the bass? Are there any other examples?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2005-12-06 11:37
I would like to address this as a purely musical issue. I have had the opportunity to play arrangements where the "arranger" uses the lowest notes of the Contra Bassoon and the Bass Clarinet as much as possibe simply because it is possible. The end result to my ears is that it comes off sounding just like that....."just because." If a composer has the sensitivity to render a moment sans bass, it may be because the moment just doesn't call for it.
Alpine Symphony is simply amazing.
By the way I heard a recording of Alpine under the direction of Loren Mazel that made me take back every horrid thing I ever said about him...... well, almost everything.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: graham
Date: 2005-12-06 13:46
If the "moment" is a fortissimo tutti it is hard to see what refinement the composer can be aiming for.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-12-06 14:01
Not even being a [dis]arranger, let alone a composer, I'd suggest playing, for ff and fff passages, to help support cellos, basses, including tubas, with the lowest notes. Just AM thots. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-12-06 14:05
A few years ago I was playing bass clarinet with a good community orchestra and we were doing Albert Roussel's Sym. #3, which is a very interesting piece of music and has a bass clarinet part that comes in sporadically thoughout the piece --- but whenever it is called for the rest of the orchestra seems to be playing fortissimo. I listened to a couple of professional recordings of the piece and was never able to detect the sound of the bass clarinet until the very last few bars of the symphony (and believe me, I can hear a bass clarinet needle in a haystack). When I questioned the conductor about the necessity of my showing up to rehearsal every week to play a part that couldn't be heard, he blew up, and actually ridiculed me in front of the group, accusing me of having some sort of a bad attitude.
Since then I have been less than eager to play for this guy.
I still think my request was reasonable.
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Author: bass9396
Date: 2005-12-06 16:45
I say play louder. There are folks out there who could drop(by drop I mean bury) a professional orchestra with their Bass if they wanted to. Most people just choose not to. Moreover, you just kinda have to be at rehearsal. That's just the way it is. Even if it sucks.
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Author: graham
Date: 2005-12-07 08:19
David, perhaps he thought you needed practice counting your bars rest. This raises the other side of the coin: composers who use an instrument because they feel they ought to but actually have no worthwhile use for it, and just bury it in loud tuttis.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-12-07 16:38
It's bad enough playing bass clarinet in concert bands where, in 75% of the music, every note one plays is doubled/tripled by someone (bassoons, euphoniums, trombones, tubas, tenor sax, etc. etc.) --- but when I'm hired to play an orchestral part, I must presume that the composer intended that the unique tone color of the bass clarinet be HEARD. This is the essence of my lifelong (and only partly tongue-in-cheek) bass clarinet philosophy of "every note's a solo".
What I forget to mention in my anecdote a few posts up is that these orchestral rehearsals were a fairly long drive for me to get to (more than an hour in each direction), and I played on no other pieces that concert -- so my attendance was merely to play the 'loud tuttis' on the one piece. That's why I requested some rehearsal relief from the conductor.
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Author: bass9396
Date: 2005-12-07 19:09
Now that I understand. If it's a long way to go that's pretty different. On another note, when I was in youth orchestra and college orchestra I played "assistant associate 2nd Clarinet." It was a good way to play and be involved and not get in the way. My youth orchestra conductor gave the chair that title and welcomed it. He thought it was cool that I wanted to be involved, and he thought Asst. Assoc. 2nd Cl. sounded funny.
Maybe in a pro or semi-pro orchestra that may not fly, but if it does, then you've got something cool to do.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-12-07 19:44
bass9396: I fail to see what a silly made-up "title" has to do with efficient use of one's time at orchestra rehearsals -- please elaborate.
When a volunteer group asks me to play for them, I expect them to be at least somewhat considerate of my schedule, in return for my 'gratis' musical services. Now if I were PAID to sit there and count rests, or play parts that nobody can hear, fine --- I'll take the money and keep my mouth shut.
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Author: bass9396
Date: 2005-12-07 20:45
I found it to be quite nice that he was willing to include me in the orchestra as opposed to sitting there doing nothing wasting time and ability. He was building a relationship with me rather than acting like a self-righteous jerk. He included .....not excluded. I play 250% every time anyways, but he definitely got more out of me than he would have had he simply cast me aside.
BTW - if you're volunteering, the group is still a bigger issue than just you. Pay or no pay, you have to be as respectful to the group as you expect them to be to you Sometimes you have to suck it up and deal with it. That's just life.
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Author: ClariBone
Date: 2005-12-07 21:14
Perphaps the composer doesn't want the bass clarinet to play because he doesn't want it to play... I mean, THEY do know what they're doing. They know what kind of sound they're striving for and maybe the bass clarinet doesn't fit into that picture. Just a thought though!!!
Clayton
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-12-07 21:20
If composers always know what they're doing, why were so many parts written for the virtually non-existent bass clarinet in "A"? Or parts written having notes below low-Eb before the low-C extension was even invented? Sorry, very often the composer (or maybe the copyist or publisher) is just plain WRONG. Or at least guilty of poor orchestration.
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Author: ClariBone
Date: 2005-12-07 21:40
David
Just because they don't know EVERYTHING about the bass clarinet (i.e. low C extension invention date, range, rare instruments like your A bass clarinet) doesn't mean they don't know what sound they are striving for. They are humans, and can't possibly know every little technical detail associated with every instrument. However, if the timbre is something they want to incorporate, then they will make it so IMHO.
Have you ever met a composer who after writing a piece commented "Oh shoot. I forgot to add the bass clarinet!!". I can honestly say that to date, I haven't.
Clayton
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Author: bass9396
Date: 2005-12-07 22:13
I agree. I have a friend who completed an entire symphony for winds without writing a sax part. He said he just didn't hear saxophone. I've heard the same story about John Corigliano.....he ended up writing a part, but is was antiphonal and they sat in the balcony. Apparently, he commented "I don't know what to do with saxophones" at least he was honest about his abilities and what he wanted.
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Author: Maarten
Date: 2005-12-08 07:43
this thread reminds me a lot of my feelings when playing The Schoepfung recently. There are a first and second clarinet part and the first has some very exposed solos. They both play along in some of the tutti, but in many tutti the clarinets are silent. IIRC the clarinet plays only in like 8 out of 32 parts. While it is also a great piece to listen to, I was glad there were only 4 rehearsals (It took me also about one hour to get there). So it's not only the bass clarinet!
Maarten
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Author: Markael
Date: 2005-12-08 15:22
"'They' do know what they are doing."
Pretty broad and sweeping generalization.
There may be some special works that have been conceived through such ethereal inspiration and crafted with such care that every instrumental part, every note, is destiny.
Contrariwise, there must be lots of random mundane reasons why composers wrote certain parts one way and not another.
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Author: graham
Date: 2005-12-08 17:32
Of course, there is nothing wrong with leaving the bass out altogether, but it is strange that they specify it and give it plenty to do for much of the time, but in some sections leave it out when you would have expected them to give it some work to do.
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Author: Tyler
Date: 2005-12-09 18:08
Maybe if bass clarinet sounded good......................
;)
-Tyler
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-12-09 18:54
Bass clarinet, in the wrong hands, can certainly be used as a WMD (Weapon of Musical Destruction), with its only saving grace being that it isn't as loud as, say, a badly-played baritone sax.
In capable hands, though, it's the greatest sound in the known universe, and should be accorded commensurate respect and consideration by composers, arrangers, and copyists.
IMHO.
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2005-12-09 20:22
I have to agree with David, different composers don't know what to make of the Bass Clarinet. Is it another saxophone, a 4th or 5th clarinet, a reedy low brass instrument, or a mellow bassoon? In an orchestral setting, the confusion only increases with Cellos to think about. From a more positive perspective, different composers think of the instrument very differently, but its clearly a challenge for many of them. All of this makes seating the Bass Clarinet section a particular challenge for band directors though.
The late great Josef Horak really did start a little revolution, though. Its not every day that a new instrument enters the repertoire, and honestly the Bass Clarinet is on its way to wider acceptance in the orchestra than Adloph Sax's other inventions.
More and more composers are thinking of the bass clarinet as a unique instrument with unique capabilities, but it IS a unique color and other than being reedy and sinister or a warmer-colored foundation of a woodwind choir moment compared to the saxes or Bassoons its a challenge to integrate into the ensemble. You can't blame a composer for not straining to make us feel welcome as opposed to concentrating on making music and using the tools he or she really understands.
OTOH, I know how frustraing it is to feel musically underutilized - its even worse with the contra clarinets. Its not technically the musical director's job to make us feel good either, and I can understand them being frustrated with whining, but its also their job to keep the talent in place to make the music happen.
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2005-12-09 20:28
IMHO, I see the bass clarinet’s major drawback being its sound blend too well in ensemble. When the entire band plays tutti, one can still hear clearly the saxes, trumpets and trombones, but good luck hearing the bass clarinet no matter how hard I blow it. It doesn’t stand out enough, it blends too well.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-12-09 20:57
BassetHorn, I must respectfully disagree. For example, a penetrating bass clarinet sound such as Ron Reuben's (Philadelphia Orchestra) can easily be heard through the entire orchestra playing forte --- I have a recording of the Shostakovich 6th which demonstrates that. I also have a fabulous recording of the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic under Libor Pesek, playing Suk's Asrael Symphony, in which the wonderful bass clarinetist (wish I knew his name!) can be distinctly heard playing his lyrical passages with the full orchestra. It isn't volume per se that projects, but emphasis of the bass clarinet's unique harmonic structure that makes it stand out.
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2005-12-09 21:05
Dave, I certainly hope so, I hate to think that my efforts lay in vain. It’s just that sitting next to 4 trombonists I have a hard time hearing myself.
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Author: bass9396
Date: 2005-12-09 22:45
Bassethorn,
I must also disagree. I've been given the "hand" far too many times to count because the instrument blows so well OUTSIDE the ensemble sound. I have students who can be clearly heard on a marching field, as I was before them. In my community band we've(all the low woodwinds) been termed as "atomic". We have a hard time paying attention for long stretches and become 'atomic' inadvertently. It's so much like Saxophone; if you're not careful, everyone will hear you.
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