 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: woodwind650
Date: 2004-09-29 16:55
anyone out there have any thoughts in these horns. i currently play buffet festivals and i've been pretty fed up with the tuning scale, especially on the middle D and E. tried out one of my students Concerto Model and was blown away at how much easier it was to play in tune, especially on the notorious middle D. any thoughts would be appreciated.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2004-09-29 19:01
Leblancs are generally easier to play in tune. Concertos and Opus models are famous for this positive characteristic. You might do a search on this board for comments on the Concerto and the Opus--there have been dozens upon dozens of long threads concerning these two instruments--including some on the Opus II.
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Author: William
Date: 2004-09-30 14:45
Briefly, I play LeBlanc Concertos because the A is so much easier to play in tune than my Buffet R13 and the scale is more even. I play the Concerto Bb because the key design matchs the A better than my Buffet R13. There is a slight difference between the sound of the LeBlancs and the Buffets, but once you "get over it", the LeBlanc sound is quite acceptable to most ensemble colleges and audience members in general. If you liked the way your students Concerto played, then you will also like the Opus or OpusII models as they are accoustical twins--key design being the only differencies.
BTW--my only regret, in switching to LeBlancs, is that I did not chose the Opus model and the auxillery Eb/Ab lever. I have it on my new Buffet Prestige bass clarinet and it is "soooo nice". The Concertos do not have this extra key (grrrr)--other than that, they are great instruments.
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Author: Don Gross
Date: 2004-09-30 15:05
HELP!
Sometime during a rehearsal, the lower throat G# pivot screw on my Leblanc low C paperclip contrabass (Bb) clarinet hit the carpeted (industrial grade) floor. Four people on hands and knees couldn't find it. Leblanc sent me the "current" replacement screw which had a pointed pivot screw-- not the original rod-shaped pivot screw that fits into the bottom of the hollow G# rod.
Since then, with Leblanc's new ownership inplace, the company now refuses to do business with individuals even to the point of not even putting me in contact with a technician (the tech I talked originall has lost his job) to see if they have the older type of pivot screw.
I'm pretty sure I can have one fabricated by a local precision machine shop, but that's gonna cost big $$.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2004-09-30 15:08
Screw fabrication shouldn't cost more than $20.
Max bench time is 30 minutes.
A good machine shop could build one of these, too.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2004-09-30 15:59
I agree about the Opus, William. A good Opus is a truly beautiful instrument--not just physically, but acoustically as well. But I also own a Concerto Bb that is a very, very nice instrument with even intonation and very smooth key action--smoother than my last R-13.
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Author: OpusII
Date: 2004-09-30 16:43
I'm still in love with my OpusII, great sound and SuperB keywork. I've tried different brands but this was the best instrument form me!
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Author: LeOpus1190s
Date: 2004-09-30 16:57
See I disagree.... I played on leblancs and even if they have better intonation, they still don't have the quality that buffets have... That's why I switched to Buffets.
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Author: OpusII
Date: 2004-09-30 17:25
LeOpus1190s,
What exactly didn't you like on the leblanc?
Eddy
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2004-09-30 18:31
So, LeOpus1190s, does this mean you will be changing your name?
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Author: William
Date: 2004-09-30 20:54
Yikes!!! Why don't people just use their own names--as I do-- so that when equipement switches happen--like with me (quite often)--the name stays the same. Just wonder'n........
William
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2004-09-30 23:07
I understand where LeOpus1190s is coming from. We both agree that when you play on Leblanc, your mind is going "I'm playing on a Leblanc" the whole time. They also have a very set tone - it's not quite as maleable as Buffet.
However, I've been on Leblanc Concertos for over a year now and I no longer feel this way - I've found setups that fix these problems.
In MY opinion, in my youth orchestra, my tone is better than the 2 other clarinetists playing on Buffet. They are usually sharp, have stuffy and faint throat notes, and don't have as much definition in their sound, which is why by the time their sound reaches the audience in a concert hall, quite frankly it's mush.
__________________
Don't hate me because I play Leblanc! ![[down]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley23.gif) Buffet
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Author: OpusII
Date: 2004-10-01 06:14
LeWhite,
I've done the same discovery as you have....Tone is better and the intonation off course very good (and I still play a standard B40). It does also project more than a Buffet... If you play a festival first and then a OpusII, you can't really tell witch one projects more. Most lekely you will say that the festival projects more.....but just ask the audience what they feel of it!
Woodwind650,
If you like the sound and feel...then just go for this beauty!
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2004-10-01 13:24
Actually, re-reading what I wrote in my last paragraph, I feel I must clarify:
The things I mentioned are not entirely due to the instrument, I feel that the aspects mentioned are more difficult to acheive on Buffet, but come more naturally on Leblanc. The downside is that Buffet is more flexible whereas Leblanc is not. It's a trade-off and you have to work at both of them if you want to be a good clarinetist eventually, so I say a clarinet is a clarinet and that is that!
NB. I don't have much experience with Festivals so I can't compare, however, I played on a friend's Bb Festival and thought it was excellent.
__________________
Don't hate me because I play Leblanc! Buffet
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Author: OpusII
Date: 2004-10-01 14:16
LeWhite,
I found the Festival also a great instrument...and a good alternative for the OpusII.
Eddy
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2004-10-01 15:05
William, I agree. Of course, if one took the name of instrument parts, like say...keyman, mouthpieceguy, padlover, ligaturegirl, etc., they could keep their name longer.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2004-10-01 20:37
In the last few days I've tried many clarinets, including both Bb and A Buffets and Leblancs. From Leblanc I tried the Opus and Concerto models, and from Buffet I tried the R13 model. First I have to say that almost all Buffets and Leblancs were excellent. Intonation was very good on both Buffets and Leblancs. Overall I prefered the Buffets for their sound but that is a matter of taste. The best was a Buffet R13 nickel plated.
You can read it all in my clarinet review thread that I will write soon.
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2004-10-01 22:41
It's funny you mention the best one was nickel plated - I was incredibly disappointed when I received my Concerto A - it was nickel plated. I nearly sent it back without even trying it. Needless to say, I tried it and instantly loved it.
A friend of mine has a pair of concertos that are nickel plated and they are fantastic instruments too.
Just a funny thought. Theorise as you wish!
__________________
Don't hate me because I play Leblanc! Buffet
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Author: Carmen
Date: 2004-10-03 00:10
I own a concerto II. I have had it for about a year and a half. It provides really great response in all registers and the intonation is rather excellent. I really like these features because something so subjective as tone can be changed and worked on by the modifications of one's embouchure/tongue position/air flow, or reeds mouthpiece and ligature. I think also the new key designs make it very comfortable in my hands. I really enjoy buffet clarinets as well, especially the rich and powerful sound that they seemed to help me with...HOWEVER! Tone quality is but one facet of playing and something that really comes only from the perseverance of the player. So I would much rather play on an instrument whose intonation, response, and ease of playing I felt are superior, even if I am dissatisfied with the tone in comparison to another only ever so slighty. Tone, I feel that I can change easily by modifying my reeds or "chops".
***...so do all who seen such times, but that is not for them to decide. All you can do is decide what to do with the time that is given to you.***
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Author: LeOpus1190s
Date: 2004-10-04 19:14
sorry for the late reply,
I can't come up with a new screen name! I have tried but nothing fits just yet. It's a work in progress
I really feel that that the Leblancs take away flexibility from what I need to do. Now I know i'm just a "student" but I know that most professional buffet players feels the same way. My Opus did have some pitch issues but the horn was so stiff that I couldn't adjust things the way I needed to.
Lewhite -
Perhaps the reason those two players that play below you youth orchestra have those issues because they don't know their clarinets well enough to fix those things. For the most part I have learned that intonation, tone, response all of that for the most part is in control of the person. I heard one professional say this (its contraversial and I didn't come up with this). That if you were to put a leblanc in the hands of an inexpierenced student they would probably sound better on it than a buffet, but when one is at a truely advanced level, the leblancs inability to be flexible can truely hold the advanced player back".
I used to think alot about clarinets before, especially in high school, now I just have my clarinets and I assume that every issue that I have is because I am not doing something, not because of the buffet's that I use.
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2004-10-05 00:13
Haha sorry let me clarify once again - I think their issues are because they don't know their instruments so well, as you said. The Buffets they play on simply expose this.
And yes I believe that's true about Leblanc's inflexibility, but given the right setup and of course lots of practise and hard work, I can work my way around that (As I have already).
I think I've said this before but I I'll say it again: One day I'm going to ask Leblanc to make me a pair of clarinets with NO markings on them. Then I'm going to have someone copy the Buffet logo onto it, and put Buffet rings on it. So even from a moderate distance no-one will havy any idea!
Then, after a huge successful orchestral career, I will tell everyone I was playing on Leblanc all along!
Hehe if only...
A lot of people talk about getting varying tone colours out of your instrument. And initially on my Leblancs after moving from Buffet I found it hard to get varying colours out of it. What I soon realised was that before, on my Buffet, I didn't really know what I was doing: I changed things without realising. On Leblanc, I have to work out HOW to make a tone colour and WHEN and WHERE I'm going to use it and HOW MUCH. I think this makes for a more thought-out and subtle performance.
__________________
Don't hate me because I play Leblanc! Buffet
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-10-05 00:37
..."So even from a moderate distance no-one will havy any idea!"
I don't have to look at the logo to tell Leblanc apart from a Buffet even from a moderate distance.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: OpusII
Date: 2004-10-05 06:12
LeWhite,
Quote:
A lot of people talk about getting varying tone colours out of your instrument. And initially on my Leblancs after moving from Buffet I found it hard to get varying colours out of it. What I soon realised was that before, on my Buffet, I didn't really know what I was doing: I changed things without realising. On Leblanc, I have to work out HOW to make a tone colour and WHEN and WHERE I'm going to use it and HOW MUCH. I think this makes for a more thought-out and subtle performance.
I feel exactly the same about this...
LeOpus1190s,
Quote:
That if you were to put a leblanc in the hands of an inexpierenced student they would probably sound better on it than a buffet, but when one is at a truely advanced level, the leblancs inability to be flexible can truely hold the advanced player back".
I'm sorry to here this, so you think that Eddie Daniels/Eddy Vanoosthuyse/ Larry Combs etc…. all could have been better when they are going to play on a buffet?? Are you angry when I'm going to laugh now......?
Post Edited (2004-10-05 06:36)
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2004-10-05 08:42
Oh Vytas.... Whatever.
__________________
Don't hate me because I play Leblanc! Buffet
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Author: oxfeely
Date: 2004-10-05 10:48
I had a nice pair of Leblanc Opus (the first Opus) A and B-flat. I played them for a few months professionaly in my orchestra. I agree with some of the earlier observations that have been made here about Opus intonation - they do have a much easier "out of the box" intonation - in fact one of the difficulties I had switching from Buffet was that I really had to retrain myself NOT to adjust in different registers for intonation. Also the resistance is very even.
However, I finally went back to my Buffet R-13's. There is something I felt to be lacking in the sound of the Opus - - too vanilla with no zing in the core of the sound, not the kind of ring in the sound that I love in a good R-13. Incidentally I find this "ring" to also be lacking in Buffet Festival clarinets. To get even more specific, I find that the nickel plated R-13's seem on the whole to give the most of this ring than the other Buffet clarinets. For some reason even Silver-plating the keys seems to change the sound a bit. Also, on the Prestige models, I feel that the metal tennon-caps have a detrimental "deadening" effect on the vibration of the wood. That's just a theory, but I really havent found a Prestige that I would take over my nickel R-13's.
It's the same sort of reason, on another level, that I keep my 70's era Selmer bass clarinet - it has a directness of tone and that super-something right in the core of the sound that I can't find in newer bass clarinets.
That core quality I have found to be what can really project to an audience - not just at fortissimo, but more importantly at super-soft dynamic levels.
I suggest that anyone who is curious about Leblancs (and who has the cash to spare) should not hesitate to try them - unfortunately I believe the only way you will ever know if they are for you is to try them for an extended period of time "on the gig" whether that be a pro gig, or community band or at school or wherever you play.
Having said all this, I will freely admit that you can definately find amazing players, some of my very favorites, who play on all manner of different brands. John Bruce Yeh on his Yamahas, Eddie Daniels on Leblancs (although on Breakthrough he's on a Yamaha, and for the next 4 or 5 albums is on Buffet), Larry Combs on Opus. I have heard great players sounding amazing on Rossi clarinets. Ricardo Morales is one of those players who could sound like the best of us all on a plastic Armstrong clarinet - he sounded great on Opus, great on Buffet Green-Lines, and great on the Selmer Signature.
I think it is good to be forthcoming about our own personal experiences trying different horns - I hope that by giving my account of my experience with the Opus that I don't get labeled as a "Leblanc Basher" or something like that. Try them for yourself. And try the Selmer Signature. And the Yamaha. And whatever else you can get your hands on.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-10-05 12:58
oxfeely wrote:
> I find that the nickel
> plated R-13's seem on the whole to give the most of this ring
> than the other Buffet clarinets. For some reason even
> Silver-plating the keys seems to change the sound a bit.
Highly debateable.
It has never been shown, proven or substantiated...GBK
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Author: LeOpus1190s
Date: 2004-10-05 21:17
OpusII-
Now I realize this is pointless to argue because you are an Opus II user and you have an ego to protect, so I really don't blame you.
Of all the latest semi big to big clarinet auditions in the US, they have been buffet players. Now statistically speaking 90 percent of clarinetists use buffets (this could be wrong now) so it makes sense that there would be a greater probablility of the winner being a buffet player. Nevertheless... if these leblancs give you superior intonation, and tonal consistency shouldn't this possibly give you a better chance than say those people with their buffet horns that are out of tune and inconsistent? Once again, it's been buffet players winning the jobs.
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Author: OpusII
Date: 2004-10-05 21:57
LeOpus1190s,
Quote:
OpusII-
Now I realize this is pointless to argue because you are an Opus II user and you have an ego to protect, so I really don't blame you.
Of all the latest semi big to big clarinet auditions in the US, they have been buffet players. Now statistically speaking 90 percent of clarinetists use buffets (this could be wrong now) so it makes sense that there would be a greater probablility of the winner being a buffet player. Nevertheless... if these leblancs give you superior intonation, and tonal consistency shouldn't this possibly give you a better chance than say those people with their buffet horns that are out of tune and inconsistent? Once again, it's been buffet players winning the jobs.
I play the Leblanc OpusII and Buffet Crampon RC both....and I've always found them both great instruments, so don’t let yourself get carry away by my nickname!![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
But statistically speaking you're surely right, and you made a good point at the end. Only I think the player has to create the music and could sound good on basically every instrument (if it’s in a good shape of course), but with the right setup. I'm not trying to convince you, I just think everybody is entitled to his/hers own opinion.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2004-10-05 22:45
LeOpusll90s wrote: "Nevertheless... if these leblancs give you superior intonation, and tonal consistency shouldn't this possibly give you a better chance than say those people with their buffet horns that are out of tune and inconsistent?"
I'm not sure what you are talking about when you say out of tune and inconsistant Buffets. As I've stated above, I recently tried several new Buffets and Leblancs and both brands were quite consistant and very much in tune.
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Author: Bradley
Date: 2004-10-06 00:08
Post Edited (2016-10-03 07:46)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-10-06 00:23
Dear boys & girls,
Please keep it from getting personal; we all have our likes & dislikes, and most of us chose what we have becuse we felt it was the best for us after considering quality & price.
If you can't keep from each other's throats, please do it in private.
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Author: oxfeely
Date: 2004-10-06 02:21
GBK . . .
You wrote:
"Highly debateable.
It has never been shown, proven or substantiated...GBK"
Actually what I said is that "I Find" that the nickel has more ring - - you think that it has never been shown, proven or substantiated that "I FIND" the nickel instruments to have more ring??
You seem very sensitive and quick to defend silver horns against this observation. I wonder why . . .
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-10-06 03:05
oxfeely wrote:
> You seem very sensitive and quick to defend silver horns
> against this observation. I wonder why . . .
Huh?
I read GBK's comments to read "there's been no substantiated difference in the sound between keys plated by different metals". I didn't read anything about any "silver horns".
Have you substantiated a difference, or are you relating just anecdotal evidence (your own)? I think that you have come across something which should be measurable, not debatable, and I've yet to see any sort of testing showing any difference in sound.
Feel, yes, sound no.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-10-06 03:24
oxfeely wrote:
> You seem very sensitive and quick to defend silver horns
> against this observation. I wonder why . .
I didn't say or imply any such thing...
I own a number of R-13's, with both silver and nickel keywork. The feel of the horns is definitely different in the hands. Few would argue that observation.
The sound being different? There are far too many variables in the construction of a clarinet to clearly determine any sound differences specifically due to key work.
One would have to have two absolutely identical clarinets to even begin to test your theory regarding key plating.
At this point, manufacturers cannot even make two absolutely identical mouthpieces, let alone two identical clarinets...GBK
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2004-10-06 14:20
Ah well. At the end of the day, I sound good on my Leblancs, so Leblanc it is for this 1%.
A clarinet is a clarinet.
__________________
Don't hate me because I play Leblanc! Buffet
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Author: mkybrain
Date: 2004-10-06 23:36
what happened to certain clarinets(and the MP and etc...) being good for certain people? We're all different, thats make makes the world go 'round. peace dudes
sorry for sounding like a hippie, i never talk like this in person, just thought i might lighten the mood a little.
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Author: Igloo Bob
Date: 2004-10-06 23:45
William said:
Quote:
Yikes!!! Why don't people just use their own names--as I do-- so that when equipement switches happen--like with me (quite often)--the name stays the same. Just wonder'n........
Or perhaps in my case, I may not live in Alaska forever. For college in Texas, what should the new username be? Rattlesnake Bob? Cactus Bob? Or if we use my real name... Country Dance Lance! Yeah, that'll be it.
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Author: oxfeely
Date: 2004-10-07 01:27
Sorry everyone if I seemed too harsh - and sorry GBK especially. When I read your post, I took it to mean that you thought my observation over the years that there seems a subtle difference in tone between R-13 nickel and silver plated horns to be nonsense. I thought you were basically saying "no, you're completely and absurdly wrong".
Every season I purchase quite a few clarinets for my students - to do this I probably end up trying maybe 40 or 50 R-13's a year. About half of those are nickel and half silver. I always buy some of each as some of the parents of my students don't want the loss of face of having their child playing on a horn percieved to be of a lower grade by non-clarinetists (its a cultural thing, like the obsession with gold-plating in Korea). Over the years I have found some great horns of both types, but I consistently prefer the nickel plated horns. Many professional players feel this way, as do many well established teachers. Perhaps it's all pschological, or we're being to old fashioned one might argue. Doesn't matter - many players prefer the sound of the nickel horns. I have talked to Buffet about it - they would much rather not make nickel horns at all to streamline production - they're only really sold for the U.S. market. Everywhere else even the C-11, 12 and 13 student horns are silver plated. But there is a market in the U.S., a large market, that continues to seek out the nickel plated R-13's. There are too many great players who love these horns to explain this away by saying they're all too old-fashioned to switch to anything different.
Also over the years I have come to feel that in general the horns Buffet was producing in years past were better overall than now. I have had particularly good luck with horns made in the early eighties . Other people prefer to go back further than that. Of course this observation also cannot be scientifically measured or verified.
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