 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: glin
Date: 2004-08-13 04:13
Observation: The new line of Yamaha CSG clarinets have no metal bell rings on the end of the bell. Ditto for Rossi, Peter Eaton, Buffet Elite, Buffet Tosca, Wurlitzer reform-boehm.
Question: Is there an acoustical advantage in eliminating the bell ring? What does the bell ring really supposed to do? I thought it was there to protect the bell from any accidental chips or breaks. I also suspect that some of these clarinets mentioned above have a carbon ring inside the bell much like Morrie Backun's barrels.
George Lin
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-08-13 07:05
Yes, it certainly is interesting, the claims made or imagined re bell rings.
I recall some advertising in a Yamaha catalogue that claimed that in their top model they had an acoustic advantage by fitting the bell ring with very high compressive forces. This compression of the timber, of course, improved the tone.
That is a very far cry from how having no bell ring!!!!
A marketer has a licence to say anything, and unfortunately, most buyers seem to believe it. Every change in a clarinet has been claimed to be an significant improvement, yet a current model clarinet is very little diferent from one of several decades ago.
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Author: Phat Cat
Date: 2004-08-13 11:45
Except for a few notes in which the entire length of the clarinet body is sealed by fingers/keys, negligible acoustic energy emerges from the bell since the standing wave terminates slightly beyond the first open tone hole. On the “long” notes, the geometry of the bell has been demonstrated to have an effect on the resulting wave form, much as the shape of the interior cylinder in other locations affects the intonation and overtone series of “short” notes.
Since the jury is still out on whether there is any conclusive proof that the material of the entire clarinet body has any influence on the sound (e.g., earlier posts by F. Kloc of Buffet say that their tests show it does not), it is pretty far-fetched to propose that the material or tension of the bell ring will have any significant difference. Of course, the truth has never been a constraint for sales/marketing.
This bell ring business reminds me of the “spinner” wheels that some cars are now sporting. They certainly are flashy, but do you suppose they influence the performance of the car?
Post Edited (2004-08-13 11:48)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-08-13 13:11
Hi,
There are several links on the BB about bells in general but this one, plus the further link by GBK, is worth looking at for more information.
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=96020&t=95987
Also, the Mazzeo bell was shaped uniquely to improve the long notes as well as to lighten the weight. While some might think that bell weight is not significant, any weight saving at this point will decrease the moment around the fulcrum at the mouthpiece or at the thumb (wt x arm = moment).
HRL
PS There is a comment in one link that talks about Moennig weighing barrels and finding as much as 1 to 1 1/2 oz. differences. FWIW, such differences were said to have an effect on the tone (lighter = darker).
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-08-13 13:18
Phat Cat wrote:
> This bell ring business reminds me of the “spinner” wheels
> that some cars are now sporting. They certainly are flashy,
> but do you suppose they influence the performance of the car?
The spinners do - in general, a negative & measurable difference in handling and stability due to higher unsprung weight than specified by the manufacturer.
Any wheel whose weight exceeds some upper limit voids the warrantee on new cars as related to breakage of axle or wheel components.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-08-13 16:25
I have done much switching of various bells between various clarinets down in my Secret Basement Clarinet Laboratory ---- including 'ring-less' Boosey & Hawkes bells and other brands which have had their original bell rings removed. I have discerned no acoustical effects from the presence or absence of bell rings. But then again, I'm just a former rocket engineer and not a professional clarinet virtuoso. Your mileage may vary.
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Author: Phat Cat
Date: 2004-08-13 17:30
Mark:
Good point. I should have said "improve the performance."
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-08-13 18:05
Phat Cat wrote
"Since the jury is still out on whether there is any conclusive proof that the material of the entire clarinet body has any influence on the sound (e.g., earlier posts by F. Kloc of Buffet say that their tests show it does not..."
I've done a search on 'kloc body material' with only one hit that is not it. Am I using this search facility inappropriately?
Can anybody link me to this info from Kloc?
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-08-13 20:12
Phat Cat,
Could you please direct me to Mr. Kloc's post? I think, I've read all of his posts and never found him talking on this issue.
****Since the jury is still out on whether there is any conclusive proof that the material of the entire clarinet body has any influence on the sound (e.g., earlier posts by F. Kloc of Buffet say that their tests show it does not)****
Quite contrary, I've got the impression that Mr. Kloc believes that material does make the deference.
Here's some of his thoughts:
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For R13 and RC model we are using the side of the center of the tree which is less dense than the center, it will make the wood respond quicker and so far it is what most of the player like. The Prestige line come with the wood we take from the center of the tree which is denser and will have to have little bit more air pressure to respond than the less dense wood. The rest is a taste of the player and for that everyone is different and it is what makes this world so attractive to me. We don't use less quality wood at Buffet and I doubt that any other companies use less quality wood. Francois Kloc.
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WOOD
The difference between the appearance of grenadilla and rosewood is first the color. Grenadilla is dark black and sometimes has clear flaming. Rosewood is clear brown and can be dark brown with a lot of fiber. With respect to one another, rosewood is less dense than grenadilla wood. I don't know about the North American market, but in Europe, rosewood and other "precious" woods are used rarely with a few exceptions. One is being chamber music because of the matched tone and sound color with the other woodwinds like bassoons, flutes, and French horns. I know you asked about clarinets, but there are also oboes made of rosewood and other materials that are used for the same purpose. This wood comes from Honduras, generally, and also Brazil. Francois Kloc
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For the wood it is not really a quality question we cannot use not good quality wood or instrument will sound like a cream pot if we did that. We use different wood density which is the center of the tree is used for the Prestige Line because it's very dense. Around we the center will be the R13 and RC models, which will be less dense of course. Francois Kloc
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Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Phat Cat
Date: 2004-08-14 12:58
To those of you looking for a reference for my F. Kloc citation. One disadvantage of being senile is that you never can be quite sure of things. I thought I remembered a post from Mr. Kloc, possibly in the context of Buffet’s Greenline clarinets, in which he said that Buffet’s tests had shown that listeners could not hear the difference between the different body materials. It was a few years ago and I don’t recall whether it was on this Bulletin Board or on the Klarinet list.
Being unable to locate the post after using various search keywords, I contacted Mr. Kloc directly and asked him if he might have made such a post. He said that he does not recall.
So, for the record, I most humbly retract my assertion regarding Mr. Kloc’s posts. However, the jury is still out on whether the body material has any effect on the sound produced.
Did I mention that one disadvantage of being senile is that you never can be quite sure of things?
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