 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-06-21 21:59
After having spent a restless night tossing and turning, I finally gave up at 3:30 am and turned on the radio ... just in time to catch a recording of A Midsummernight's Dream with the Boston Symph (Tanglewood Women's Chorus) and Judy Dench (sp?) as the narrator.
Wow ... the playing was, really, faultless. Ozawa seems to be able to milk an almost silken quality from the strings and faery-like delicacy from the winds. The clarinets in the scherzo were breathtaking ... I noticed their articulation in the groups of 6 16th notes was always first two slurred and other four tongued, flutes tongued the whole lot.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-06-21 22:02
The piece is one of my alltime favorites.....but a much older recording done by one of the East Coast orchs. and choral group. Don't recall the names just now. Also the very old movie with James Cagney and Mickey Rooney!!
"Ah, what fools these mortals be." Puck
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2004-06-22 16:48
If your in for the Midsummer Night's Dream music, the recording I always loved(although not complete) is the Philips recording with the BSO and Colin Davis...from the 70s...
.being a former student of Harold Wright I may be a bit biased, but this is simply put one of the most homogenous sounding interpretations of the piece...the winds are incredible....
David Dow
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Author: JessKateDD
Date: 2004-06-22 17:30
Slurring Mendelssohn? Definitely beatable and not breathtaking. I don't like that on the Szell recording either. The Scherzo is staccato - any quality player should be able to tongue those passages well into the 90s. And if it goes even faster, switch to double tongue - Gigliotti once told me the Minnesota section double tongued it when a conductor decided to go 110 (in his later years, Tony became a huge advocate that every clarinetist should learn to double tongue). Any bassoonist who cannot tongue the Beethoven 4 solo at 160 is unemployable. The same should be true of clarinetists in about 10 years - there are too many kids in high school and college now doing what the older generation simply cannot or will not take the time to learn.
It's not just Boston, either. I have a recording of the Chicago Symphony playing Galanta Dances - a studio recording mind you - and it's a trainwreck in some of the exposed tonguing passages. It really annoys me to hear these supposedly great players killing stuff that a hack like me can toss off with ease.
On the other hand, I've always loved the BSO - undoubtedly one of America's finest orchestras. I just hate hearing that our friends in the clarinet section are not pulling their weight.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2004-06-23 01:05
The Davis recording is with the written articulations...haven't heard the Szell or Ozawa version. I am sure Munch too would insist on what is written...
David Dow
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-06-23 22:09
I have never heard a complete recording of the work, and my full score has music in it (often covered by loads of dialogue) that I can only hear in my mind's ear. Obviously designed with its original intention: orchestra in the theatre providing the music as the play is in progress.
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Author: CPW
Date: 2004-06-24 00:14
Has anyone been in Phila's new hall since Morales started there?
How does the woodwind sound carry?
You dont hear too much about phila anymore.
Or am I jest imaginin' it.?
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-06-24 01:41
Philadelphia ... such a wonderful orchestra, makes me smile thinking about them.
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Author: Keil
Date: 2004-06-24 16:51
Jess those are some very strong opinions. It might not be a question of whether or not the players CAN articulate up to tempo but rather or not the conductor wished them to do so. You can trust that the players in the BSO are highly trained and quite capable of doing whatever the music calls for. If the recording to which diz is referring is the same as the one i have then Harold Wright is playing principal clarinet, trust me... he could handle it. What you must realize also is that now there is a greater push towards technical facility. With the brainy new compositions and composers out there the question of musicality has reached an even greater level of subjectivity. Quite frankly clarinetist today are expected to be able to do things the clarinetist of yesterday were not expected to do, that however, does not mean that they could not do them, they simply did not have to. I am a very big advocate of artistic license as well as a great supporter of the BSO of that era. You will find some of the most beautiful wind playing in that orchestra... i dare say it champions that of the Philedelphia Orchestra to whom we have marketably donated the term "leaders of the american style of woodwind playing." If you ask me the interpretation of the Mend. Scherzo with the slur is a very beautiful one. In saying that it isn't simply because there is a slur where you would prefer articulation would be juvenile. Trust me "our friends in the BSO" are definitely pulling their weight... orchestral playing is not a competition with trophies and triatholons it is an art form... enjoy it as such.
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Author: JessKateDD
Date: 2004-06-24 18:49
Keil,
I am simply stating the obvious. The reason the flutes tongued and the clarinets slurred is because the clarinets were incapable of correctly articulating the passages. And regardless of your "interpretation", and whether or not you think insisting on correct articulation is "juvenile", I am one of those odd sorts who believes you should play what the composer wrote. Obviously the written notes are not as important to you - if you can subjectively "improve" on what a composer has written (a practice that was quite common in the 19th century), then you seem to support it. But your view is an uncommon one currently. I will stand by my previous statement - in 10 years, failure to articulate passages such as those in the Mendelssohn will result in an immediate "Thank you" from the panel.
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Author: Ben
Date: 2004-06-24 19:57
An immediate "Thank you"....perhaps, but not necessarily.
I don't know if Tom Martin (assistant principal clar. in Boston) was playing on this recording, but if he was, I KNOW the slurs were not due to him being unable to play it as written. I have heard him play the scherzo in a couple different master classes, and both times it was flawless...at about 88-92 to the bar, with NO added slurs. Most clarinetists would be glad to play it as well as he can on an off day!
Oh, ever notice how L. Combs plays the scherzo about 82 on his excerpt recording? Well, I am sure he can also play it much faster, but realizes that is won't necessarily add much to the music. In fact, I remember him telling me a while back that soon after they got a new principal flutist, they were playing the scherzo on tour at about 108, so the flutist could be showed off some! The clarinets had to add some slurs, he said, but so what!
Articulation and tempo are two huge components of interpretation and taste, or the lack of it. If someone played the scherzo in an audition with a couple slurs, yes it is walking a fine line, but so what. Do we only want robots that only play what's on the page (with who knows how many typos), or do we want to want to pay $15+ to hear a different and perhaps interesting interpretation? I also prefer the scherzo without added slurs, but I don't get bent out of shape when I hear someone adding a few. I am more impressed when I hear great rhythm, clean and light articulations, appropriate dynamics and phrases, good intonation, AND a beautiful tone! If an orchestra panel really wants to hear some fast tonguing, with or without slurs, they will say so; they can either ask you to play something at THEIR tempo, or ask for a different excerpt, etc.
Additionally, I think BIG part of being a fine musician is being one who can be flexible enough to make great music at many different tempos, with different articulations, and who is not boxed into one 'best' interpretation. If you can't be flexible enough to keep a job, it matters little how many auditions you win. However, lack of flexibility is also very apparent for auditions panels for orchestras of this level. Why else would they wish a few final players to each play a little with the whole orchestra (like the recent Phily audition, Riccardo won)!
Anyhow, one of my favorite recordings of MSND is a recent one with the Berlin Phil. and C. Abbado. The Boston one is good, too.
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Author: Keil
Date: 2004-06-24 21:03
Jess,
for you to say that the reason the clarinets did not articulate the passage as written because they were incapable of doing so is absolutely ridiculous. You know not their reasons for not articulating the passage as written and if adhering strictly to what printed music states is your claim to fame then i would rather enjoying hearing your "interpretation" of the Mozart Clarinet Concerto as written in the Baerenritter *sp?* edition in which very few articulated passages are marked as such and yet there are many famous, world renowned clarinets who have placed their own spin on the passage, whether it be to show off their articulation abilities or to do the reverse, it matters not... the bottom line is all interpretations are valid ones if one wishes to dream them up, regardless of your schooled knowledge. You also went on to say that, "in 10 years, failure to articulate passages such as those in the Mendelssohn will result in an immediate "Thank you" from the panel." I disagree. There are many instances in which people have played orchestral excerpts perfectly, made it to the final rounds and even won the audition and were refused the position, likewise I'm sure there are people who had a decent audition with minor flaws, and went on to receive tenure by proving within the musical context that they are valid and conssumate performers. Maybe in an audition playing as written is the key, but as Ben so poingnantly pointed out one's lack of flexiblity could result in losing a job as well. Double tonguing is a relatively new extended technique added to the clarinet repetoire. To not know how to do it does not mean one cannot win a job, it simply means that one is in a better position to play articulation nightmares that today's composers are pushing more towards. Also, remember we can never truly play what the composer wrote because interpretation is endless. What is forte? What is staccato? all of these concepts are relative to what preceeded it. Unless the composer is sitting there dictating to you the precise way he/she hears their composition we are all left to interpret for ourselves what the music says. As far as articulations go, for centuries players have been modifying to suit there own personal needs... that does not make them any less a musician.
Check out a recording of Frank Cohen playing the Mozart Clarinet Concerto... i'm sure it will baffle your mind.
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-06-24 22:05
For god's sake - let's drop the slur discussion, I merely pointed out an interesting interpretation ... I did not for one MINUTE suggest that an American orchestral musician would not be up to the challenge ... heaven forbid that I should be so unwise in a venue like this. I'm afraid you've taken my comment completely out of context and imagined a meaning (what a surprise).
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
Post Edited (2004-06-24 23:20)
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2004-06-25 18:31
IMO, double tongueing on the clarinet distorts the beauty of the sound. I have yet to hear anyone do it and maintain the clarity and focus in the tone. I would much rather hear a real musician who can play with artistry than some "hack", to use a term thrown out previously, double tongue with some awful spread and ugly tone. Marcellus made a coment once to my previous teacher that there was nothing in the orchestral literature that needed to be double tongued. I am sure that he had a fast tongue, but would not hesitate to add a slur if it would help musically. On my recording of Beethoven 6, he slurs all of the descending passage in the scherzo. Surely Jess wouldn't consider Marcellus a "supposed great player killing stuff" like the CSO musicians for this. Maybe Jess should get in touch with Larry Combs or Greg Smith and offer some of his "hack" services and instruct them in the proper way of "pulling their weight".
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Author: larryb
Date: 2004-06-25 18:36
Is it true that Mike Barnacle once sat in with the BSO for a performance?
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-06-25 18:52
larryb wrote:
> Is it true that Mike Barnacle once sat in with the BSO for a
> performance?
The same Mike Barnacle that was fired for plagiarism by the Boston Globe? ...GBK
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2004-06-28 17:16
In a short reply to Dave, I just wonder which orchestra he performs with and where he thinks that Marcellus is so great he played everything perfect...in fact that is a total myth. I remember an awful sqwauk that Mr. Marcellus let out one year at the Banff festival during an open rehearsal at the Banff festival...in fact I have little regard for anyone who feels that everything thing by everyone can be single tongued because as humans we are all different...so some people simply have slower tongues.
As to recordings we are mentioning there is very little to criticize...
I seem to remember the wonderful job Mr. Kalmen Bloch did of double tongueing with Bruno Walter the Beethoven 4 Finale with no loss of sonority...in fact he just sounds wonderful!
I think to just make a blanket statement that everything can be done single tongued is ridiculous...when and where did Marcellus say this? I would also add that I could never do all staccatto Flight of the Bumble Bee without double tongueing...its simply to tiresome and unclear.
Pricipal Clarinet
Symphony NB
David Dow
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2004-06-28 18:49
To D Dow:
I never said I thought Marcellus played perfectly. In fact if you listen carefully to the second solo in Cappriccio Espanol he kind of squawks a little at the beginning of it. Anyway my point was that playing beatifully is far more important than tongueing every single note as in the case of Harold Wright's Midsummer Night's Dream.
As far as Marcellus making the comment that nothing in the lit required double tongueng? Well that was HIS opinion expressed to my former teacher during a lesson.
My post was really a response to the absurd post by JessKateDD.
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Author: JessKateDD
Date: 2004-06-28 21:24
I was going to let this thread die and ignore the mean and stupid things said by Keil and Dave. Perhaps I should do like my old friend Senza (one of the finest clarinetists in America) and just withdraw from the discussion. But now that it is bumped up, and Dave has taken another swipe at me, I'll respond.
Mr. Cohen's Mozart does not "baffle my mind". An original copy of Mozart does not exist, so there is no definitive version that is known correct. Additionally, soloists play by different rules than orchestral players. The latter group is supposed to play each note as written, if possible. The fact that Boston and Cleveland added slurs tells me that they could not do justice to the music as written. That assertion is not "absolutely ridiculous". More absurd would be the notion that the players in those orchestras consider themselves musically superior to the composers who wrote the notes. Some of you may believe that Misters Wright and Marcellus ARE musically superior to Mendelssohn and Beethoven, but I do not. I do not accept their changing articulations as equally valid with what the composers wrote. I stated what for me seemed obvious. I did not know either of these esteemed musicians, but I'd like to think that between themselves and Beethoven they were willing to admit that they were mere servants to the music and not editors making it better.
Equally true is that technique is always spiralling upwards. What was acceptable 40 years ago will not work today. Every generation of players is technically more proficient than their predecessors, though I freely admit that they may not be better musicians otherwise. Increased tonguing speed is no exception. And if Dave believes that double tonguing cannot be done effectively on the clarinet, then he needs to listen to more players. It is becoming commonplace.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-06-28 22:46
This thread is one that, while on-topic, has morphed over to something that I don;t quite understand anymore. What would have seemed an innocuous (and factual) statement by Diz has been so taken out of context at this point that this thread must now be closed.
Read before you react.
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