 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Bennett ★2017
Date: 2004-04-29 18:21
Any one have a clue as to the relative popularity of A vs. Bb clarinets? For every A clarinet sold/rented/played, how many Bb's are sold/rented/played?
Also, how much more expensive are A's than Bb's? If a Bb goes for $X, a similar A goes for $X + what percent of X?
Just curious.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2004-04-29 20:24
On a similar note, why are there relatively few solos written for A clarinet (compared to Bb)? I don't have a total count, but from what I've seen, this seems to be the case. Any reasons?
DH
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RAMman
Date: 2004-04-29 20:25
I have no idea of specifics...I'll hazard some guesses though!!
The number of b flats must far outstrip the number of A clarinets sold. An A (usually) is a later purchase, when a player has reached a certain stage and starts to work on the repertoire that requires one (Mozart, Brahms trio and quintet, orchestral works).
I have never heard of anyone starting on an A. For a start, the feel is different and some would say the A is harder (articulation, altissimo playing)
If an A and B flat are got together as a pair, the discounts applied by most dealers (certainly in the UK) will mean that the prices are pretty much equal. A clarinets are more expensive, but I think this is mainly because of the fact that less are sold. The amount of extra material and workmanship in an A is negligible when you think about it.
For example, a pair of Tosca clarinets just purchased over here, the A and B flat were the same price, even though the A was bought later.
Ratios? Shall I make a formula??
I'd say at least 4 or 5 b flats sold for every A.
E flats? Probably more like 50
Basses...I dread to think!!!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: larryb
Date: 2004-04-29 20:58
The A makes up in quality of solos what it lacks in quantity. I've long believed that if I had to keep just one instrument, it would be the A clarinet (transposition aside):
Mozart quintet & concerto
Brahms quintet
Nielsen concerto
etc...
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-04-30 00:56
Quote:
For example, a pair of Tosca clarinets just purchased over here, the A and B flat were the same price, even though the A was bought later. Well, for the price of a Tosca, is it even really fair to make you pay EXTRA for that extra inch of wood? It'd be like rubbing salt in your wallet's wound . . .
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Phat Cat
Date: 2004-04-30 14:27
I have followed thousands of ebay clarinet auctions and can offer the following observations. I think it is reasonable to say that ebay represents a statistically significant and accurate sample of the distribution of clarinets in the US, provided we factor out all the “brand new, $99 special” trash that is listed constantly but rarely sold. Also, as you’d expect, student model clarinets constitute the majority of listings, but let’s factor them out too since 99% are Bb.
Considering just intermediate and professional models, I would estimate that the ratio of Bb to A is probably something like 20:1, if not higher. For example, as I write this there are over 1000 clarinet listings on ebay, perhaps 200 of which are intermediate to professional. I counter fewer than 10 listings for A instruments, which is actually as many as I can remember seeing at once; sometimes there may be only one or two
In general, a used A in good condition from one of the big 4 makers commands a premium of at least 10-20% over a similar Bb. In the case of R-13’s, where the Bb is quite common on ebay, the A premium is greater.
FYI, the ratio for Bb to Eb is probably more like 75:1, if not higher. And Bass clarinets are more numerous than A sopranos, possibly due to the fact that they are common in bands.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: D Dow
Date: 2004-04-30 20:14
I much prefer the resonse and warmth of tonal colour one can derive from playing the A...the Bb clarinet is a far more tempermental beast in terms of tuning in many regards.
The scale of the A clarinet is far more even and cleaner in terms of response....
the Bb clarinet suffers from over production in a few regards. I just don't know how people like Buffet and Leblanc can offter so many models without sacrificing something.
David Dow
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-04-30 20:31
Out of curiousity, (after reading D Dow's post), would the tone and 'darkness' of a typical A clarinet be comparable to that of a Full Boehm (including low Eb) of a Bb clarinet? And would that then mean that a FB A clarinet (such as the Amati ACL 675) would have a 'darker' color than that of a normal A?
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: chuck
Date: 2004-05-01 04:59
This is not really a question of popularity; rather it is a question of necessity. I "needed" an A for orchestra, some chamber music--and a job with a C/W band. But consider how many times that work is confronted by the many who play in only HS, College, Service and Community Bands. Here, the majority of works are scored for the Bb . . and where do the majority of clarinetists play? Chuck
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2004-05-01 06:20
if you consider all clarinets bought i think the ratio is something like 100:1 at least if not higher. think how many kids buy a Bb clarinet but then stop playing or just never buy an A clarinet.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: CheezyClarinetist
Date: 2004-05-02 02:08
I have just learned to transpose everything that is written in A; it saves me money and I love my Bb so much, all of the A's can hardly compare.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mw
Date: 2004-05-02 02:26
CheezyClarinetist: It has been said (here & elsewhere) that "the choice of key and clarinet is relevant to the sound that the composer had in mind."
Do you think that the sound of your Bb transposed to play an A Clarinet part is exactly equal in sound to an A Clarinet playing the music as written?
The fact that you have learned to transpose "fluently" tells us that your education & understanding are strong - you have developed skills. Congratulations to that end. I do understand that if you don't have access to an A Clarinet, transposing is the only alternative @ hand.
The point remains .... what about the SOUND ?
Post Edited (2004-05-02 16:24)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: LeOpus1190s
Date: 2004-05-02 09:41
Someone asked if i twas really fair to charge for an extra inch of wood, here is my response. YES because if you have tried the R13A's vs the R-13 Bb's the A clarinets are crap right now. It is harder ot make a good A clarinet, and it isn't just a matter of making a slightly longer clarinet.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mw
Date: 2004-05-02 16:33
LeOpus1190s said:
"It is harder (to) make a good A clarinet, and it isn't just a matter of making a slightly longer clarinet."
----------------------
OK, I'll bite. Tell us why "its harder" ?
Professional Clarinet pricing in any Key is directly related to the number of Clarinets in Key being produced. That is the law of manufacturing coupled with supply & demand.
Is it harder to make an Eb Clarinet than an A or Bb. Harder to make a C versus an Eb ?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: allencole
Date: 2004-05-03 09:03
Has anyone tried the Buffet E-11A? I just got hooked up in a Western band, and need something I can play freely in guitar keys. (currently borrowing a Selmer Series 10) I play an R13 Bb, but have always liked the free-blowing feeling of the E-11.
Allen Cole
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2004-05-03 09:53
I really love the sound of an A when somebody else is playing it. Being initially a military band clarinettist later bassonist and saxophonist, I find the A clarinet the most frustrating horn ever invented. I don't mind the C melody sax or even the C clarinet but the A clarinet leaves me in the cold.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2004-05-03 15:03
When I was a young pup (early 1960's), I participated in a series of blind trials with the same music (transposed so as to avoid any transposition errors "on the fly") with both A and Bb clarinets. This was done at a local university by a number of interested clarinet players.
The players were behind a screen, the selections (about twenty in all) were handed out randomly to the players, and the rest of us (all relatively seasoned clarinet players) were to judge whether we were hearing a A horn or a Bb horn. There were no "low Es" played in the music, the better to mask the A horns' extra half step of range.
The results were conclusive enough for me to maintain the following position, which I will stand by until someone comes up with a similar test that shows otherwise:
"To the listener, there is functionally no difference between the tone/sound/timbre/whatever of the A clarinet and the Bb clarinet."
Having said that, there's no exclusion of the player's differing sensations when playing the two horns. Finger spacing is wider on the A (for one very obvious difference) and the break seems to respond differently (at least in my mind). Air pressure issues are different as well.
The "A is mellow" sensation (I think) exists solely in the minds of the player who, when fingering a particular note but hearing a note a half step lower than they do on the "normal" Bb horn, respond with the natural "h'mm, this is a little different from what I expected" sensation. Ditto the "The C clarinet is shrill" sensation. This is my feeling on C clarinet playing (not included in the above trials), although I've only played C horns on a very limited basis (a year in the 1960's in Springfield MO and once or twice since).
I've never met a player who spent as much time on the A horn as on the Bb, but it would be interesting to hear their input. (And, see below) For the record, I used to spend about 5% of my time on the A soprano horn, but since fronting a Vegas style band has become my main musical interest, I hardly ever put the A horn together any longer.
For the record, I started on a _A_ Buffet bass clarinet (Albert System) that was the last residual of my grandfather's set of A and Bb soprano and basses that were brought over from "the old country" post World War I. (They left in a hurry during the post-war Red revolutions, and all of value that was portable was the jewelry and the horns.) When it became time for little Terry to go into music, someone recalled that Grandpa (who hocked the A and Bb sopranos and Bb bass but could not move the A bass) had a old horn kicking around the attic, and that was that.
After a complete overhaul, there I was, the youngest bass clarinetist in the city. Following a year of "reformed notation" (I just learned the transposed note for the fingering) and finger stretching (the bass has wider spacing than a soprano, and the Albert horn had wider still), I switched over to an intermediate Boehm soprano horn and moved forward. And, no, I have absolutely no idea what became of the horn...it was part of the trade in for the soprano and is probably in someone's collection.
Since transitioning back to the Boehm System, I've always kept my hand in with Albert horns (and now Oehler as well). I still think that the Albert bass clarinets that I've played were "sweeter" horns that the Boehm ones. I'd love to get my hands on a quality Buffet or Selmer from the period, but all that I've seen in the last twenty years have been cracked and beaten to death instruments.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Liquorice
Date: 2004-05-03 15:58
Terry, that was a really interesting experiment. I can't say that I'm that surprised. I agree that the difference in feel when playing an A or B-flat is probably a lot more than the difference in sound to the audience.
"I've never met a player who spent as much time on the A horn as on the Bb"
I have. As a student I realised that I felt more comfortable on my Bb than my A. When I thought about the fact that many of the most important classical solos are for A clarinet, I decided to change things. I started practising scales, etudes, etc. exclusively on my A. After many years I now actually feel more comfortable on my A clarinet than my Bb! Perhaps it's time to balance things a bit more evenly now.
I'm not sure I agree that its only the "feel" of the C clarinet that makes it sound different to the Bb. I've played quite a lot of C clarinet. I do believe that it would be easier to recognise the C from the Bb in a blind listening test. But that remains to be seen (or heard!)
Regarding the quote that "the choice of key and clarinet is relevant to the sound that the composer had in mind." This is hardly relevant when playing classical and romantic music on modern instruments. The A clarinet (or Bb) of Mozart's time sounded so different from modern clarinets that it is certainly not the sound he had in mind!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mw
Date: 2004-05-04 18:30
"This is hardly relevant when playing classical and romantic music on modern instruments. The A clarinet (or Bb) of Mozart's time sounded so different from modern clarinets that it is certainly not the sound he had in mind!"
-----------------------------
... and what of the Bb? Is a transposed (modern) Bb exempt from comparison?
I have included a link below to Dan Leeson's article on this subject.
http://www.ocr.woodwind.org/articles/Leeson/leeson5.html
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GBK
Date: 2004-05-04 18:49
"...I've never met a player who spent as much time on the A horn as on the Bb..."
I have and continue to do so.
Every time I practice I only use the A clarinet. The Bb clarinet is briefly picked up at the very end of a practice session.
Many of my professional colleagues do exactly the same thing.
The more hours (days?, weeks?, years?) you have logged on the A clarinet, will make it feel that much more comfortable when you have to make a sudden switch of clarinets in orchestra...GBK
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-05-04 20:41
With the two "A" clarinets I've owned, I've yet to notice a significant difference in sound, response, or intonation tendencies compared to my Bb clarinets. I can practice/perform interchangeably on either one --- but then again (a) I don't play at a particularly high skill level and (b) my "A" clarinets were/are somewhat unusual, being older hard-rubber "off-brand" horns and not the shiny-new, expensive, stuffy, perpetually out-of-tune R-13s y'all are constantly complaining about.......
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mw
Date: 2004-05-04 22:20
"my "A" clarinets were/are somewhat unusual, being older hard-rubber "off-brand" horns and not the shiny-new, expensive, stuffy, perpetually out-of-tune R-13s y'all are constantly complaining about......."
------------------------------------
Actually I hear a fair amount of complaining about "off-brand" clarinets constantly getting out of adjustment.
Come now, the market for "stuffy, perpetually out-of-tune" clarinets is NOT controlled by the Big 4 or custom manufacturers. No one has a corner on this end of the market - definitely equal opportunity for all !
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
