 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Johnny Galaga
Date: 2003-07-30 09:24
When I used to play clarinet, I had the ability to "copy" other musicians. Someone could play a scale or a simple phrase and I could play it right back after hearing it just once. I had perfect pitch, and the reason for this is because I was able to associate a unique emotional quality with every key and even every note.
In my opinion every single note and every musical key has its very own special emotional characteristics. To me, there is a VERY big difference between playing the Mozart Concerto in Bb versus A Major for example, and especially the second movement in Eb instead of D Major. It's only a half-step difference, but to me, they are WORLDS apart !
This is partly because when I first started playing clarinet, every time I learned a new note, it stuck out in my mind. If I was playing something in concert Bb Major, and I had to stop and learn accidentals such as Eb or F#, that note would sound suddenly "wired" or "different," allowing me to "remember" what that note sounded like. Playing during the ensuing years allowed to develop thoughts or emotional ideas about each key. And of course, it's all a matter of personal opinion, because what one note or key means to me emotionally, might be completely different for another musician.
My curiosity is about composers. What thought process do they use to decide what key to write music in ?
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Author: Tom A
Date: 2003-07-30 11:33
I love this stuff, but I'm not an expert. From what I've read, there are a number of diffferent reasons.
*Apparently, many composers (and perhaps even listeners without realising) have a certain emotional response to certain pitches. This can cause a composer to choose a key as the tonal centre of a work.
*Some keys are preferred in orchestral writing because of the combination of open strings in the scale. D Major is considered "bright" because the tonic, dominant and subdominant can all be played on open strings, with a resultingly clearer sound overall. F minor is rarely the centre of an orchestral work because of it's "darkness", only the 2nd note of the natural minor scale is open string. Maybe this is why Tchaikovsky used it to open his fourth symphony.
*Facility on the instrument. Weber knew what he was doing when he wrote his clarinet works in E flat (F Major for the clarinet). D Major is quite a popular key for violin concertos for this reason also. A lot of shorter keyboard works are in five-flat keys, as the combination of white and black notes makes it easier.
*In days of old, Bach wrote the "Crucifixus" of his B minor Mass in F sharp minor. It seems that this was an "out-of-tune" key on the instruments of the day, especially on the harpsichord before equal temperament was introduced. This dissonant quality suited that part of the mass, describing the Crucifixion.
*And my personal favourite, some people feel or perceive colour in different keys. Rimsky-Korsakov and Scriabin made lists of the colours effected by the 12 Majors. Some in the two lists are similar, some very different.
One account I've read notes the fact that Mozart (who apparently had this gift) would hear his C Major Symphony actually in D flat Major if he were around today because of changes in customary pitch. What colour would he perceive?
Messiaen had the gift of synaesthesia, meaning he perceived colours with sound. While rehearsing one of his works with an orchestra, one of the trumpets asked if he was playing a certain section in the right style.
Messian replied, "Could you play it a little more greenie-orange?"
There, you got me started and I couldn't stop. Hope I've left some things for others to contribute, maybe others who actually experience these things rather than having to read them like I do!
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Author: Dan1937
Date: 2003-07-30 11:48
Johnny,
Other very important considerations in deciding on key are (1) the maturity and experience level of the performer or group [ability to handle key signatures with multiple flats or sharps, etc.], (2) the effect of different keys on the placement and range of notes the performers would have to be able to play or sing. Often (particularly when writing for young groups), a composer must abandon the key which might sound best to his/her ears in favor of a key which would enable a young ensemble to perform it effectively.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-07-30 13:20
Johnny, that's an amazing talent. I don't know the answer to your question but it sure is an interesting one.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-07-30 14:54
There have been many treatises in music history related to the relationship between color and key.
Here is Christian Schubart's from 1806:
http://www.wmich.edu/mus-theo/courses/keys.html
Whether one thinks these theories are bunk or actual emotional reactions to notes and keys, it does give a different perspective, certainly subject to debate.
BTW - 2 of the composers that William mentioned in his posting above on musicians and color (Scriabin and Tchaikovsky), both had, during their lifetime, serious mental health issues ...GBK
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-07-30 15:21
Velly interesting - Mainly musical-"sound" reasons-for-key-choice so far? Knowing little of vocal music, but having seen Amadeus several times, wasn't much of it "fashioned" for individual singers,vocal range, ease of performance, brilliance and other reasons? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Ralph G
Date: 2003-07-30 15:41
I remember studying briefly the relationships between keys and colors, and the one that sticks out most is F major being associated with green. Hence Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony is in F major to suggest verdant pastures, majestic flora and fauna, all that great tree-hugger stuff (I even burned a copy of the symphony onto a green-colored CD).
________________
Artistic talent is a gift from God and whoever discovers it in himself has a certain obligation: to know that he cannot waste this talent, but must develop it.
- Pope John Paul II
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Author: Benni
Date: 2003-07-30 16:35
From the link GBK posted: "F# Major
Triumph over difficulty, free sigh of relief utered when hurdles are surmounted; echo of a soul which has fiercely struggled and finally conquered lies in all uses of this key."
I remember experiencing these same feelings the first time I got through some F# major etudes . . . 
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Author: Ron Jr.
Date: 2003-07-30 18:24
I have a friend who is a pianist composer and in his mind all key signatures have distinct emotional feeling. He says that Db major, 5 flats, is the most physically comfortable for hand position. When he's improvising he'll say to us "name a key" and depending on the key we can get something very upbeat or something very lugubrious (mournful).
Ron Jr.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-07-30 20:39
Until the recent adoption of equal temperament each key had it's own character because of the differences in tuning of the intervals. Now all keys sound the same to most of us.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-07-30 20:40
Maybe that's one reason why composers don't write in a "Key" anymore?
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2003-07-30 21:21
As a composer who doesn't use keys, there are many reasons not to use a particular key, for me...
1) I like to change "keys" (tonal centers, whatever you choose to call them) a lot, if I have one at all, so it's pointless to use a key signature.
2) there are so many rules that are hammered into our head in theory classes about what chords you can and can't write... for me, I'm going to write whatever chords I feel like (depending on the sound I'm going for), and using a key signature is too mentally constrictive (brings back horrible nightmares of theory 1 rules...)
Also, I personally have never really noticed a distinct emotional characteristic of each key... I admit that the Mozart sounds better in A than Bb (when played close enough together that I can compare theM), but if you just played me one and didn't tell me which key it was, I couldn't tell you.... I personally think that the emotional/expressive aspects of a song come more from the relations the notes have to each other. I find it hard to believe that the same song transposed into 12 keys would give you 12 different emotions.... (though I will admit that some might seem to "fit" better if all 12 were compared).
Don
Question - since many people can't recognize the alleged emotional characteristics of certain keys/notes... do these characteristics exist in and of themselves and those who can't hear them just are missing something, or is it just a personal thing, with everyone sort of intrepetting what they hear in their own way?
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Author: ned
Date: 2003-07-31 05:48
Was it George Gershwin who played [and presumably composed] everything in Gb on the piano?
Apparently he was not a trained pianist by any stretch of the imagination and this key was seemingly easy for him - they say anyway!
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-07-31 06:02
Actually, John, Gershwin was in great demand as a pianist for years because many thought him to be a superior player. However, to my ear, I heard nothing he played that sounded superbly done to me (Gershwin made a number of Duo-Art piano rolls).
And Ron Jr., I recall the ease of playing the Db major Rachmaninoff "Moment Musicale" on the piano. While it requires a quite wide spread, the hands just seem to flow easily across the keys.
Regards,
John
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Author: Benni
Date: 2003-07-31 07:27
John Kelly - I'm not sure if it was Irving Berlin you're thinking of, but I remember seeing a documentay on him in which they said he originally only knew one key and used a transposing piano for other keys.
Larry - Ah, yeah, I guess I wasn't thinking of that little catch at the time . . .
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Author: ned
Date: 2003-07-31 08:45
Yes Benni - now that you mention it - I think it WAS Irving Berlin - doesn't mean we have play everything he wrote in Gb does it of course.
Although there ARE some purists who would say that one should play in the composer's original key I don't subscribe to that line of thought. I can't imagine how long it would take me to learn to play something in Gb [concert that is] on the clarinet.
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Author: Benni
Date: 2003-07-31 15:49
Could you imagine a bunch of beginning band students trying to struggle through "God Bless America" in concert Gb? hehe
Some songs seem to be commonly transposed anyway, such as "Star Dust," which I believe was originally written in Gb, but is often seen in C. Come to think of it, I've heard a lot of jazz standards in more keys than I can remember. At a jazz festival I was recently at, I heard "Dinah" (originally in G, I think) several times, and in a different key just about every time! (No, I don't have perfect pitch, I happened to be close enough to hear the bandleader . . .  )
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-07-31 16:17
I just heard a perf. of Mozart's G Minor [#25-6?] on PT of NPR, which was characterized by the common-tater as tragic [with similar adjectives] it did sound a bit "dull" as compared with other works. Thinking of M etc, I tried [apparently unsuccessfully] above to make a "funny" re: vocal music and "other reasons" in Amadeus! Dern! Missed again, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Allie
Date: 2003-07-31 17:13
"And my personal favourite, some people feel or perceive colour in different keys."
That's interesting. My Dad, who has perfect pitch, also associates keys with colors. I had never heard of anyone else doing that, and my family would just laugh at his talking about "the green key," or Ab sounding "sort of purple." Makes me wonder if there's something there.....
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-07-31 17:17
Benni said:
>such as "Star Dust," which I believe was originally written in Gb
Are you sure?
The original sheet music for "Star Dust" (published by Mills Music in 1929 - list price $.35) of which I have a copy, is in C major.
Carmichael's original piano manuscript (which I now believe is in the Library of Congress) was in D major ...GBK
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-07-31 17:42
We always played it in Db, believe our pianists said it was orig., tho, isnt that an all black-key key [redundant?] for piano. Next time for a BG, AS, GM tape, I'll see what they did! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Benni
Date: 2003-08-01 00:01
GBK, thanks for the correction.
I've seen it published in Gb, Db, and C . . . interesting to note that the original manuscript was in a sharp key, however. So, if I play "Star Dust" from a copy in C major and do not transpose, then I am hearing it in the original key of the piano manuscript (if I figured that right)!
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-08-01 02:25
Benni asked:
>So, if I play "Star Dust" from a copy in C major and do not transpose, then I am hearing it in the original key of the piano manuscript
Yes, if you play it on a Bb clarinet ...GBK
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Author: Johnny Galaga
Date: 2003-08-02 12:39
Yes ! Colors ! I didn't say anything because I thought I was just sick. I definitely associate colors with musical keys or even single notes. I didn't realize it was that common. This has turned out to be an excellent thread.
GBK wrote:
"BTW - 2 of the composers that William mentioned in his posting above on musicians and color (Scriabin and Tchaikovsky), both had, during their lifetime, serious mental health issues ...GBK"
Haha, now that's funny GBK. So exactly what are you trying to say ?' LOL
Liquorice wrote:
"Until the recent adoption of equal temperament each key had it's own character because of the differences in tuning of the intervals. Now all keys sound the same to most of us."
Ouch ! I'm sorry to hear that.
...and...
"Maybe that's one reason why composers don't write in a "Key" anymore?"
Good point. I never liked 20th Century. But even there I still think it's possible to hear bits and peicees of major or minor sounding phrases.
Benni wrote:
"I remember experiencing these same feelings the first time I got through some F# major etudes . . . "
Concert E major is a really neat key in my opinion. If you can get out of the rut of recognizing it's technical difficulty, and instead recognize it's emotional beauty or uniqueness, you might see what I mean.
And this brings up another question. How do composers decide whether to use sharps or flats for the larger key signatures ? Gb Major versus F# major ? Five flats versus 7 sharps ? Why is the 2nd half of the Bb clarinet part in Elsa's Precession To The Cathedral (Wagner) written in 6 flats instead of 6 sharps when it's in concert E Major (4 sharps) to begin with ?
theclarinetist wrote:
"1) I like to change "keys" (tonal centers, whatever you choose to call them) a lot, if I have one at all, so it's pointless to use a key signature. "
And when you change keys, doesn't the mood or emotion of the music suddenly change ?
"...I admit that the Mozart sounds better in A than Bb (when played close enough together that I can compare theM), but if you just played me one and didn't tell me which key it was, I couldn't tell you.... "
So why do you think A Major is beter than Bb ? Is it the physical tone of the instrument, or the emotional quality of the key ?
...and...
"I personally think that the emotional/expressive aspects of a song come more from the relations the notes have to each other."
But there's also an emotional quality or color that goes with simply playing a scale or even a single note. Granted, it's only a scale, but what makes it special is its uniqueness from all the other scales.
...and...
"I find it hard to believe that the same song transposed into 12 keys would give you 12 different emotions.... "
Oh, but it does !! If I was smart enough to be a composer, choosing the key would be a BIG consideration.
"(though I will admit that some might seem to "fit" better if all 12 were compared). "
Exactly ! That's the whole point.
"do these characteristics exist in and of themselves and those who can't hear them just are missing something, or is it just a personal thing, with everyone sort of intrepetting what they hear in their own way?"
I feel it's definitely personal interpretation, so I don't think you'd be missing anything. What one musician thinks about one key is not what another might think.
John Kelly - Australia wrote:
"Although there ARE some purists who would say that one should play in the composer's original key I don't subscribe to that line of thought. I can't imagine how long it would take me to learn to play something in Gb [concert that is] on the clarinet."
Wow ! Sacrificing technique for a potentially unique emotional experience is a shame ! When I played in band in school, I HATED the fact that we never got to play in keys like that, because we were missing an entire realm of musical quality. I hated playing "arranged" parts that were "B-flattenized" for beginners.
And how good at clarinet do you wanna be ? Practicing those difficult keys will improve your technique to the point that you won't so be bogged down worrying about fingerings, and you can instead appreciate the uniqueness a half step can bring.
Benni wrote:
"Could you imagine a bunch of beginning band students trying to struggle through "God Bless America" in concert Gb? hehe"
Absolutely. But I'm talking beyond technique here. I'm assuming you have experienced musicans playing your works. The key DOES make a difference.
Technique is a whole other topic . . .
This has been a very interesting discussion. Thanks to all !
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Author: Bennett ★2017
Date: 2003-08-02 23:48
Excellent article on synaesthesia in the May 2003 Scientific American:
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=0003014B-9D06-1E8F-8EA5809EC5880000&pageNumber=1&catID=2
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Author: ned
Date: 2003-08-03 23:19
" John Kelly - Australia wrote:
"Although there ARE some purists who would say that one should play in the composer's original key I don't subscribe to that line of thought. I can't imagine how long it would take me to learn to play something in Gb [concert that is] on the clarinet."
Wow ! Sacrificing technique for a potentially unique emotional experience is a shame ! When I played in band in school, I HATED the fact that we never got to play in keys like that, because we were missing an entire realm of musical quality. I hated playing "arranged" parts that were "B-flattenized" for beginners.
And how good at clarinet do you wanna be ? Practicing those difficult keys will improve your technique to the point that you won't so be bogged down worrying about fingerings, and you can instead appreciate the uniqueness a half step can bring. "
I do practices in all keys [slowly in the hard ones] but I don't see the point in PLAYING in excessively difficult ones. Many times that I play in a band [jazz] I don't even ask which key the number is to be played in I generally wait for a half bar to pick that up - it's not a problem with our music actually. So I don't really have any hangups about keys.
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2003-08-04 01:06
"1) I like to change "keys" (tonal centers, whatever you choose to call them) a lot, if I have one at all, so it's pointless to use a key signature. "
And when you change keys, doesn't the mood or emotion of the music suddenly change ?
--- I would have to say that the "mood" of the piece does not change every time I change tonal centers. I've written pieces that change tonal centers numerous times yet have a a very consistent mood (that being the one I have created used harmonies, melodies, and rhythms, regardless of what "key" a particular gesture is in).
In regard to changing keys and which "fit" better... during my composing, I'll sometimes transpose a measure or group of measures (or sometimes the whole song if I find it easier to transpose the piano part instead of the instrumental part). I often find that the newly transposed piece or section sounds odd at first (having the original key still in my mind), but after a few listenings the new key sounds right and when transposed back the original sounds "off". I think it's all just relative to what you're used to hearing.
As for the Mozart (which is a good example), as I said... I play the exposition piano part in Bb then play it in A RIGHT AFTERWARDS, the a sounds better... but if I've heard it in both keys on separate occasions and I honestly couldn't tell you the difference even if I tried. I guess it just goes back to my relative to what you're used to...
I certainly can't speak for everyone, but this is just what I've experienced. If it's all personal interpretation, then I guess we're all correct.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2003-08-04 01:26
It's a fascinating discussion. Some people feel that keys such as F# major are grating and abrasive compared to the more common keys such as C, F, G, etc. Could it be that our ears just become more used to the common keys and the resolutions into those notes that we naturally feel more comfortable with them whether or not we have "perfect pitch". People without "perfect pitch" can recognize notes and keys as being familiar without being able to name them by ear.
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Author: Johnny Galaga
Date: 2004-01-22 04:15
Playing a key change is like suddenly looking at a woman who appears a little different than the others, but is still beautiful in her own special way.
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