 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Lisa_UK
Date: 2003-06-09 15:28
I'm having a few problems playing notes clearly in the clarion and altissimo on my Selmer CT. They don't sound "clean".
The only way I can think to describe this is a very short kind of "harmonic" sound before the actual note "kicks in". Once the note forms, it sounds fine, but there's a delay with this funny sound. I especially notice this if I'm slurring up from a note in the lower register. I wish I could find a more eloquent, technical way to describe this.
Is this likely to be down to my quite out of practise technique (maybe the way I'm touching the register key?) or a problem with the instrument?
Lisa
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Author: William
Date: 2003-06-09 16:07
You are most likely experiancing the subtone syndrome that affects of us in the clarineting world. It has to do with oral configuration, tongue action and breath support (what else is there?) Try arching the back of your tongue as in producing a cats hiss. This will help focus the air stream toward the reed tip. Then try various articulations (ex: ta-ta-ta-ta) slowly, downward on a scale starting from high C (C5) to as low as you can go--using you octave key only for the first note of each set. Then, try playing a descending C scale totally without the register key. But do not forget to arch the back of your tongue and give steady breath support.
When you can reach D5 and tongue a couple of notes clearly without the register key, your subtone problem may disappear.
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Author: Benni
Date: 2003-06-09 16:23
Or, if your voicing is OKeh, then the problem may be in the register key itself. I also own an older Selmer, and I'd been having some problems w/ subtones . . . I found that it was because the register key was coming off the hole just a little too far and temporarily fixed it by by putting a little roll of tape underneath the key. I think I'll take it into the shop someday and have a fatter piece of felt or cork put on.
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Author: Lisa_UK
Date: 2003-06-09 16:36
Benni, I'd wondered if it was something to do with the Selmer register key, as it's not a problem I've had before even with my relative lack of playing recently. It's actually going into the shop tomorrow for something else, so I'll have a word with the repairer about it. William, thanks for the suggestions - I'll see what the repairer says and if I have no luck there I'll give that a go.
Lisa
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2003-06-09 17:05
Lisa, one way to verify if Benni is correct is to find a problem note with the pre-subharmonic sound and while playing a series of quarter notes, begin to pick up your thumb slightly so the register key will begin to descend towards the hole. If it disappears at a point before closure, you have your answer. I agree with Hiroshi, that the register key should open between 0.6mm to 1.0mm.
On my Vito V40, I had to reduce the register key opening drastically to eliminate the subtone before the actual note in the clarion region.
Let us know about your play test results, OK?
Good luck.
Dan
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Author: Henry
Date: 2003-06-09 17:36
This is uncanny! After reading Lisa's post, I became aware that I may have the exact same problem on my Leblanc LL. In a previous post, I described it as a "grunt" (not very accurately, I am afraid). I got several suggestions then but all of them had to do with my embouchure, NOT with the mechanical aspects of the horn. Whatever I tried, it didn't go away. Benni and Dan gave me another thought. Sure enough, my register key opens up more than 1.0 mm; I would say as much as 1.5-2.0 mm . After I put a small loose piece of cork under the key, the problem was gone! Slurs from the chalumeau to the clarion are also much easier now. This is a repair job I can probably do myself!
Thanks guys!!! This is a wonderful BB!
Henry
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Author: Lisa_UK
Date: 2003-06-09 17:46
Henry, "grunt" is exactly the term I was thinking of to describe it too. Horrible noise, isn't it?
I just took a look at my register key, and even with my untrained eye I could tell it was opening up way, way more than 1.0mm. Probably closer to, or even over 2mm.
I dont have any cork handy so I folded up a piece of paper and stuck it under the key to test the theory and - problem solved!! I'll get the repairer to put a bit of cork on there for me tomorrow.
Thanks everyone - this place really is great, you learn something new every day.
Lisa
Post Edited (2003-06-09 17:46)
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Author: Henry
Date: 2003-06-09 20:40
A quick status report. I have made the repair by glueing an extra ~0.5 mm of cork sheet under the register key with contact cement. Even though I'm not sure that the register key now opens to its optimum height, the result is amazing. What a joy! The Rose studies I was having trouble with this morning, especially the large slurred intervals across the break, are so much easier now!
Thanks again, everyone, for the excellent advice.
And, Lisa, good luck! Let us know how it works out.
Henry
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Author: Richard
Date: 2003-06-09 20:58
Lisa
I responded to your previous thread about having to build up your embouchure and starting out with 2-1/2 reeds.
Again, I had the same problem until my embouchure built up. G5 up was very 'thuddy' but it went away after a time. I attributed some of the problemt to the soft reeds and the mouthpiece I was using. Just have patience.
Another observation. I tryed several 2-1/2 reeds with my HS** - the one I think you use - and, yes they play somewhat flat.
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Author: Henry
Date: 2003-06-09 21:04
Richard:
I'm sure that building up one's embouchure never hurts but there are problems that a good embouchure can't solve. I believe that Lisa's is one of them. We'll know tomorrow, when she hopefully reports back to us on the effect of her repair. In my case, at least, it worked perfectly.
Henry
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Author: Lisa_UK
Date: 2003-06-09 21:08
Hey Richard,
You're probably right, it probably is contributing to it, but I did notice a big difference after the piece-of-paper trick.
I'm just an impatient Aries, I guess - but I'm always willing to consider the possibility that it's not just my bad technique causing problems.... ;-)
You're close with the mouthpiece - it's a Selmer D. Tuning wise, if anything, it's playing sharp, but that wasn't really having an effect on the problem I was having with the register key, I don't think.
I'll get there eventually!
Thanks for all your responses.
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Author: Todd W.
Date: 2003-06-09 22:30
Lisa --
I know cost is a concern, but you might check into Ed Pillinger's mouthpieces, especially since he is in your corner of the world, and (from his website) appears to be familiar with large bore instruments. A personally fitted mouthpiece could be worth the cost in increased enjoyment of your instrument.
Todd W.
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Author: David
Date: 2003-06-09 23:25
If you're shopping, give Morgan mouthpieces a whirl.
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Author: Lisa_UK
Date: 2003-06-10 14:53
OK, CT repair tech visit update.
He agreed that the register key was opening too much, so he adjusted that, and the subtones and grunts almost disappeared. The key action was also very high, so he put a thicker bit of cork on the - not sure of the technical term - the piece that you line up between the upper and lower joints. I'm sure this part must have a technical name! That also helped alot. He did some whizzy things to individually tune the notes that I was having problems with, and it's now playing alot better.
And on the mouthpiece issue - I settled on a 5RV Lyre with a Rovner lig and now it's playing better than ever - I've updated my mouthpiece thread with the details. Subtones totally gone now with the combination of the adjustments and the new mouthpiece.
Thanks everyone,
Lisa
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Author: Richard
Date: 2003-06-10 15:06
Thanks for sharing your findings Lisa; this is excellent information for all of us.
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Author: Lisa_UK
Date: 2003-06-10 15:11
Richard, you're very welcome.
I just wanted to clarify something after re-reading my post. The high key action I was referring to was the finger holes on the bottom joint - not the register key - I thought it best to clarify. Very high and "clacky". Once he added the extra cork to bring these closer to the tone holes, alot of the sharpness disappeared.
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Author: Henry
Date: 2003-06-10 20:50
Lisa: I'm glad to hear that the changes in the register key, together with some other modifications, paid off. Good luck with the band! (I joined a swing band on alto sax a year and a half ago after a 25-year lay-off and things have been going very well. Less than a year ago I added the clarinet to my "repertoire". Still learning but making quick progress.)
Henry
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