 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Benni
Date: 2003-04-16 20:47
This is just out of curiosity - how many people on here know their Meyers-Briggs type and/or the type of famous clarinetists?
I'm an INTP, and if I were in a room full of clarinetists, I probably wouldn't ask this (or anything else, for that matter), but there's something comforting about basking in the warm glow of my monitor. 
For those of you not familiar w/ the types, an INTP is Introverted iNtuitive Thinking Perceiving with Jungian preferences of introverted thinking and extraverted intuition. And if that made no sense to you, check out this page . . . http://personalitypage.com
Also, you can get a rough idea of your type for free here: http://humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp
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Author: Henry
Date: 2003-04-16 21:35
Benni: I have no idea about my own type but my wife tells me she is a strong ESTJ. I am afraid that would make me an INFP!!!! (Not too different from your type.)
Henry
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Author: Ralph G
Date: 2003-04-16 21:46
At my old job we took the MBTI and I was the only INTP in a room full of ESFJ's.
To hell with all the those goofy alphabet-soup tests, though. The results only mean what you let them mean.
I have no idea how this applies to clarinets. How about, "You can't spell clarinet without INTP, except for the P."›
________________
Artistic talent is a gift from God and whoever discovers it in himself has a certain obligation: to know that he cannot waste this talent, but must develop it.
- Pope John Paul II
Post Edited (2003-04-16 22:48)
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Author: Benni
Date: 2003-04-16 21:51
Henry -
Well, as they say, opposites attract!
One of my best friends is an INFP, and we're pretty similar except when it comes to dealing w/ others. She is always afraid of hurting someone's feelings or letting them down, while I usually tell it like it is. One thing we definately have in common: our organizational skills (or lack thereof)! Is your desk messy, too?
As the P type relates to clarinet playing: Do you leave reeds you don't like on the floor, your music stand, etc.? And have you amassed dozens of the plastic things the reeds come in and leave them in a pile, hoping you'll do something with them someday?
Ralph -
Love the saying! ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
Post Edited (2003-04-16 22:53)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-04-16 22:13
Velly interesting, BennI, made it into the INTP "classification" even tho finding myself in the middle of some questions. I am a retired engineer! TKS, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-04-16 22:36
Hi Everyone,
I was the advisor for a thesis some years ago and had a student survey about 100 pilots during their training for the private pilot certificate. Many of these people are now airline pilots. We used the 16 PF Inverntory which is a pretty standard test which measures 16 different personality traits.
The null hypothesis was "There is no significant difference between the personality of the pilot group and standard population means." We expected that traits like resourcefulness, leadership, and all those things that we would want to have an airline pilot possess would be elevated. Quess what?
We accepted the null hypothesis. There was no significant difference. Pilots are just about the same as the average person.
IMHO, we can probably make the same generalization to a population of clarinet players. Although we would like to think that we are in some way different, we are more alike than one would expect.
HRL
PS The student is now the president of a company that trains airline pilots. I am on her advisory board and we still talk about these findings.
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Author: Benni
Date: 2003-04-16 23:38
Interesting observation, Hank . . . I can see how the null hypothesis makes sense, especially when you consider that anyone in any kind of specialized field is in some degree exhibiting learned behavior. I mean, none of us just picked up a clarinet and played Mozart's clarinet concerto. (Well, at least I hope not!) So, if you look at the whole thing from a behavioral standpoint, anyone can play clarinet successfully, it's just a matter of teaching them.
From the other side, though, most clarinetists I know (as well as everyone who has replied to this thread so far) are introverted and/or iNtuitive. Of course, I might find the same thing if I asked a group of trombonists, or professional cowbell players, or whatever.
Ah well, this is just for fun anway! 
Don -
Wow! Yet another INTP!
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Author: hans
Date: 2003-04-16 23:49
I'm sorry to be a wet blanket, Benni. Meyers-Briggs is not good psychology and I don't believe that it is supported by "main-stream" psychology. Dr. Walter Mischel at Stanford University says: "Typologies are appealing because of their simplicity, but it is their simplicity that limits their value. Generally an individual's behaviors are so complex, diverse, and variable that he cannot be sorted usefully into a simplistic category or slot", in his text on Personality.
For example, people behave differently in different situations: an introvert in one situation (e.g., while playing a solo in front of an audience?) can be an extravert in another (e.g., while writing to a BB?).
In one study (Ulrich, Stachnik, and Stainton, 1963), 57 students were given *identical* personality interpretations based on their psychological assessment test results. The vast majority indicated that it successfully captured their personalities, with 93% rating the accuracy excellent or good; i.e., subjects seem to accept the results of their assessments easily even when they are meaningless, which contributes to the success of tests like Meyers-Briggs.
Its main advantage, as Dr. Mischel says, is that it is easy to understand. It is therefore easy to sell to those who are looking for an easy-to-use tool, so that Myers and Briggs can make lots of money out of BS.
Judging from the responses, clarinet players are generally not very easily taken in by invalid tests.
Hans
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Author: Jerry
Date: 2003-04-17 00:56
In the business community, MB is used most often to give employees insight into how to understand the motivations of and work better with others, whether customers or co-workers. It may not be perfect psychology, but it helps an awful lot of people understand one another's tendencies and predispositions - how they are most likely to react given various circumstances. Those who are most perceptive of others' preferences, fears, loves, etc. are likely to be most successful in working with or for those people. It may not be the perfect device, but it is a worthwhile tool given its primary purpose.
I am an INTJ. Am I in my profession in part due to my INTJ tendencies, or do I have INTJ tendencies because I am in my particular profession? I don't know and I don't think that matters. What matters is the tendencies we have at the moment, and the tendencies of those we work with at the moment.
I wonder how many professional instrumental ensembles (symphony orchestras and the like) have retreats where the MB is taken to help with better "teamwork" in those types organizations?
Jerry
The Villages, FL
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Author: Benni
Date: 2003-04-17 01:02
I'm not a psychology expert by any means, but I've taken a few classes in it, and the MBTI was introduced as one of many different personality theories. Like any other theory we learned about, there are few people in the "real world" of psychology who subscribe solely to it, but it was offered as one of the more widely known theories. Jung's theory was a little limited - the MB extended it.
Plus, different people take their results to different extents . . . I'm not the type to go around making sure that all my friends are of one type and all my romantic interests are of another so they match perfectly with me. I do think there's something to the general concept of it, though, as the system makes sense.
"For example, people behave differently in different situations: an introvert in one situation (e.g., while playing a solo in front of an audience?) can be an extravert in another (e.g., while writing to a BB?)." - OKeh, here I must differ: Just about ANY theory of personality will say that no one is completely one way or the other. For instance, I'm introverted around strangers, but extraverted around friends or in situations where I don't have to speak directly to people (online, for instance).
"Judging from the responses, clarinet players are generally not very easily taken in by invalid tests." Ouch - no one said I was taken in by an invalid test. As I've said before, I just put this up here out of curiosity. I knew there are a number of people out there who know about the test, and I thought it might be interesting to see if there was a trend, or quite possibly no trend at all. I thought it would just be interesting to see what people had to say. What you said is like criticizing someone who starts a thread about where everyone is from by telling them that there is no correlation between clarinet playing and geographical location . . .
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-04-17 02:01
This is going way off subject now. The "where are you from" thread isn't theoretical. This is and really doesn't seem to apply to much of anything ...
However, as long as you don't pay for the analysis ...
I've found that I come out differently every few months, depending on my mood, when I answer the questions. The free test is much too simplistic to warrant any serious thought ...
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2003-04-17 05:59
That test told me:
Your Type is
ENFJ
Extroverted Intuitive Feeling Judging
Strength of the preferences %
1 22 56 1
I have no idea what this all means...
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Author: graham
Date: 2003-04-17 09:16
Very interesting stuff. I had MB done once (and felt at the time as MC suggests that much could depend on the mood of the day) but I was nonetheless impressed with the accuracy at the outcome when coupled with some other tests I cannot now remember. I don't remember the whole result but the strong indicators were I and N.
Now, the bit that interests me re the clarinet (or music generally) is whether or not being either I or E has an impact on how well one performs to an audience. Easy to assume that when you are performing to them, you are in E mode. But I doubt that, because E is about feeding off others, where as music performance is about giving of yourself something that has been grown inwardly by yourself, so that sounds like I. Another way of saying this is: does the audience answer back?, No (you hope), so you are not engaging in classic E behaviour. The interaction with the audience is there but is very subtle.
I write as someone with no formal knowledge in the subject so it would be good if others had observations on these points, whether expert or speculative.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-04-17 11:35
graham wrote:
> I was nonetheless impressed with the accuracy at the
> outcome when coupled with some other tests I cannot now
> remember.
I am as impressed with the accuracy of MB as much as I am with the accuracy of my daily horoscope.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-04-17 13:32
Rather "faint praise", Mark, for a somewhat-accepted test/evaluation?? I felt, for some ?'s, the need of some "shades of meaning" beyond the binary yes/no. Re: the I-E ?vert? , I often feel that I "play-for" my fellow musicians more than for an audience. How does that fit into these classifications? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-04-17 13:36
Don Berger wrote:
> Rather "faint praise", Mark, for a somewhat-accepted
> test/evaluation??
If in fact administered and interpreted by a trained psychologist/psychiatrist, and in concert with other evaluations and interviews - a tool to be carefully used.
Online psychological "tests" = pop psychology = possibly less than useful = sometimes harmful.
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Author: Vic
Date: 2003-04-17 13:49
Jerry was right - the MB is used extensively in the business community. I use it quite a bit in my work of developing high performance teams. I'm in no way qualified to judge the real psychological aspects of it, but it is a useful tool in some cases to help people work together more effectively. It has more relevance than horoscopes, certainly, but it also has limitations.
All that being said, I would suspect (although I have no empirical evidence) that clarinetists pretty much follow the standard curve for the general population. Personally, I'm an INFP, which is pretty rare. If there are any others out there, I'd enjoy hearing from you.
And a further note - Mark Pinner zeroed in on the issue perfectly - all of us are a bit psycho or we wouldn't be playing the clarinet at all. Could be worse, I suppose - we could have picked the oboe.
Post Edited (2003-04-17 15:47)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-04-17 14:13
Most every professional clarinetist is the first to arrive at rehearsal, and the last to leave the stage.
High insecurity, anal retentiveness and a feeling of never being prepared enough, distinguish clarinetists from almost all other musicians (with the possible exception of oboists).
After 40 years of wondering why I and others are like that, I now just happily accept it...GBK
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-04-17 18:11
Myers-Briggs has a commonality with other ratings which categorize personalities in an "either-or" fashion. While it may have its usefulness, the concept that everyone is either an introvert or extrovert, for example, misses a lot of human psychology. Is there no such thing as balance? Is there no possibility of "going with the flow," performing differently under different conditions? Of course there is.
I'm with Mark. I've taken Myers-Briggs three times, professionally administered. My result once was ENTJ, once INTP. The third I don't recall.
However, I won't brand Myers-Briggs as "bad psychology," any more than I would care to characterize any other widely-used test as "bad." But do take the results with a grain (or more) of salt, same as anything else.
One thing that contributes to the success of Myers-Briggs is that there is no result which brands anyone as a sociopathic fiend. Everyone is OK! Mark mentioned horoscopes: Interesting experiment done several years ago revealed that among a group of college students, the great majority agreed that personality traits selected appropriately from a newspaper astrology column fit them to a T. A repeat performance with "sun-signs" scrambled produced results which were not significantly different. If you say anything nice to people, they are not likely to argue.
Anybody wonder how serial killers might fare on the Myers-Briggs?
Regards,
John
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Author: Eileen
Date: 2003-04-17 21:15
Well, I suckered and took the test. I'm a ENFP. And more importantly, my zodiac sign is Cancer the Crab. P.S. Of course the clarinet players are the last to leave the stage. We have 5 separate pieces to swab out.
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Author: Heidi
Date: 2003-04-17 21:55
I'm an ISTJ....we've not stumbled upon that one yet. But I have noticed the quirkiness of the clarinet players that I know (very few). We are the first on and the first off, we over prepare, under-value our work, and are always looking for a better "set-up." We're just never satisfied with our current situation, and to a certain degree I think that's good...it always allows for progress!:)
Cool test!
Heidi
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Author: Benni
Date: 2003-04-17 22:18
Well, re: clarinetists' arrival and departure times, I'm not always the first to show up, but I am usually the last to leave, and it's usually because I'm still swabbing or hanging around and playing more.
Re: horoscopes - "Today is a (number). You will do something that every human being does on a daily/weekly basis whether you realize it or not. You should focus on something really vague that everyone focuses on one time or another." . . . and throw in something about "astral configurations"
Re: accuracy of the online test - Well, I took it multiple times (on different days, of course) to see if the results were consistent, and I always came up INTP, but in different percentages. So, yes, it's not the most accurate thing in the world.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-04-18 03:49
Hi,
If you want to check on psychology tests in general look at the Mental Measurements Yearbook and you'll have more than you can handle. Some serious reading.
The question with all tests be they statistical or psychological is are they reliable and valid (measure what is to be measured). I am quite suspicious of a test that someone can take on different but closely spaced intervals and get a different profile. It would seem that mood is being measured rather than personality. As I recall, the MMPI is a very robust and is a well accepted personality test.
I say again, I don't think that clarinet players have any different and/or unique personality type. Altough we would like to think of ourselves as seemingly more astute, deeper thinkers, etc. IMHO it is not so. We are probably more like others than not.
HRL
PS My formal training is in research and not psychology but I have had a good deal of tests and measurements along the way which I believe is what we are talking about.
Post Edited (2003-04-18 16:06)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-04-18 15:17
Hi All,
Mark, you are right on with: "Online psychological "tests" = pop psychology = possibly less than useful = sometimes harmful." However, IMHO I do not necessarily agree that this thread is "going way off subject." There are a large number of younger-aged clarinet players frequenting this BB that need to hear some of us "oldsters" talk about how we view the MB with respect to our many more life expereinces.
Hans, the Mischel quote is extremely compelling. It says it all. My thought is if it is too quick and easy it probably is. Personality indentification will you wait!
HRL
Post Edited (2003-04-18 17:54)
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Author: Bob Schwab
Date: 2003-04-19 02:37
It's obvious that this discussion hit a few nerves, which surprised me. I thought it was a very insightful and creative question. What's the harm in seeing if a pattern emerges? And for what it's worth, I concur with Jerry's (Destin, FL) response (Hey Jerry, I retired from Eglin a few years ago, did quite a bit of fishing in Destin).
As someone who has more than a cursory knowledge of the MBTI, I can say that my particular type indicator has me pegged. I felt very understood and validated by my results. I are an INFP.
Bob Schwab
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