 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: wjk
Date: 2003-01-24 02:43
How practical is it to have silver keys gold plated? (ie, taking the pre-existing silver keys off off a clarinet and getting them gold plated). Should the posts be gold plated also? Can the gold wear off?
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Author: Terry Horlick
Date: 2003-01-24 04:04
To do a good job will require removal of all the parts you are plating and buffing them out. Then plating and polishing. Then repadding and re-installing the springs. Then re-assembly and adjustment. You may have difficulty doing the bell ring because it is almost impossible to remove and replace. I guess you could get one of the Caswell paint on gold plating pens to do up the bell ring.
I suggest sending it out for an overhaul while you are at it. It shouldn't be significantly more pricey to do gold plating than is is to do silver plating.
YES you cn wear through gold plating just as easily as you can silver or nickle.
Why do you want to do that? Just to make the old Bundy pretty?
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-01-24 04:08
wjk asks:
"How practical is it to have silver keys gold plated? (ie, taking the pre-existing silver keys off off a clarinet and getting them gold plated)."
Practical? Not very, but it can be done.
"Should the posts be gold plated also?"
Up to the user. That also could be done.
"Can the gold wear off?"
Not only can, but probably will. To avoid wearing away of plated gold on any area where contact is regularly made (such as fingers on keys) would require quite a heavy plating, and the expense would skyrocket.
Do not ignore the cost of re-padding the instrument, which would have to be done. The existing pads would need to be removed prior to plating.
If someone offers you a reasonable price to do all this, don't expect a good job. It's too cheap.
Regards,
Joh
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Author: Bob
Date: 2003-01-24 13:11
It would sure make an impressive lamp, especially with a Tiffany shade......
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Author: William
Date: 2003-01-24 15:18
I'm an expert, in that I had my jazz R13 gold plated in 1988, and it still hasn't exhibited any wear or loss of color. In fact, it still looks like it did the first day back from the music shoppe. I have had, in the past, the problem of plating wearing off on the "usual" keys (A, E ring, etc), but no problems with my gold plated "ax." BTW, the posts, as well as the rings (except for the bell) were all gold plated as well--just makes the whole intrument more "radiant."
Why did I have it done???? Simply "show biz." I'm a pretty good orchestral clarinetist, but not so good at jazz--so I decided that if my clarinet looked better, it might sound better (to the audience). Also, the gold color matches the "ambiance" of my Selmer saxes (sop, alto and tenor) and makes for a great looking "rack of horns" when all set up. Now, if I could only afford that gold flute............
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-01-24 15:41
William: Always good to read expert information. What did that cost you, fifteen years ago?
Regards,
John
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Author: Ralph G
Date: 2003-01-24 17:47
Chadash quotes $400 for 24kt gold plating on top of their regular overhaul cost.
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Author: Peter
Date: 2003-01-24 18:09
It's really not practical at all.
That is, in the sense that it doesn't help the clarinet to sound any better. Psychologically, it may (or may not) do something for you, but aside from that, it probably won't help you sound any better, either.
From the practical point of view, it's an excersise in futility and wanting to throw away perfectly good money.
However, from the aesthetic point of view, it can be a wonderful experience, as, properly done, it can make for some beautiful instruments. Very pleasurable to look upon.
In 2001, while having an 'A' soprano overhauled, the tech doing the job, a close friend, offered to gold plate it free of charge. I jumped on it. The instrument looks beautiful (and sounds much better, but that's due to the overhaul, not the plating!)
All the hardware, including the posts and the bell ring were done. He even did the logos and serial numbers in gold leaf paint!
I don't play that particular clarinet very much, consequently, the gold finish hasn't exibited much wear (especially in the short time since it was done.)
Frankly, until I just read William's post on his 1988-to-date experience, I thought that gold, being a typically a much softer metal than silver, would certainly wear off faster. I'm glad to hear otherwise, but of course, it also depends on the hardness of the gold alloy used and the thickness of the plating.
I've been thinking about having some of my better instruments (the ones I likely will never sell off) done either in white, red, or yellow gold. (I know, the white gold will look too much like silver, but it won't require the care and polishing of silver, and the jury is still out on the red gold.)
If you have one done, insist on having the bell ring and the posts also done. The ones I've seen with the bell ring left in silver while everything else is gold, look unattractive, like an amateur job, and it detracts greatly from the looks of the work.(No offense, William.)
I did, however, see a set of 'A', 'Bb, 'C' amd 'Eb,' in a custom made quadruple case about five years ago that had the posts and the bell rings left in silver, while the rods and the keys were in gold. The color contrasts throughout the entire instrument had a very pleasing, artistic "feel" to it, so you might consider an "artistic" approach to this, as well.
That has also been one of my considerations for the next one I plan to have done, if I ever get around to doing another one, that is.
BTW: I tried several times to contact the Vandoren company and their U.S. distributor, J. D'Addario, to have a custom, gold Optimum clarinet ligature made (they have them for saxophone, but not clarinets) and neither showed enough courtesy to respond to my enquiries. I've since found out that they are notorious for their total lack of regard for customer service.
I finally purchased a gold BG inverted ligature, which aside from looking good on the instrument, it plays well. I'll eventually ask my tech friend to gold plate a silver Optimum clarinet ligature for me.
Peter
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Author: Peter
Date: 2003-01-24 18:29
I forgot: If you have an instrument gold plated, especially in pure, soft, 24K gold and at prices like Ralph said Chadash charges, make sure the keys get a thick coating of a really good lacker on top of the gold, or it will wear off too quicly to make feasible such an unnecessary (albeit, well done, in some cases) expenditure.
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2003-01-24 21:12
Gold plating is often done over a silver base plate.
Caswell and Rockwell tools have Midas kits that include Rhodium in the solution. The wear on this electroplate alloy is low.
Goldplating in 24k is not recommended for wear areas, but it would look sharp from up close.
I wonder what LeBlanc uses on the Pete Fountain horns?
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Author: Ken
Date: 2003-01-25 03:22
On a clarinet is there ANY real tonal/audible distinction with gold plated on keys? We know it makes a big difference with brass instruments.
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Author: Peter
Date: 2003-01-25 05:30
Ken,
I don't really know myself, but I've asked several technicians I know that question and so far, not one of them is of the opinion that key plating is a determining factor in a clarinet's performance. In regards to wood clarinets, that is.
I don't know, but I would guess that it might may some difference in a metal clarinet. Perhaps gold pad resonators might make a difference?
Anybody know?
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2003-01-25 14:46
Gee Ken,
Anything empirical to back that up?
Hard to believe anything external, and angstroms thick can have an impact on a wavelength as large as anything audible.
The 1/4 wavelength coatings apply to LIGHT waves for filtering.
The primary advantage in gold plating is that is won't tarnish.
Audible? Prove it.
It's like sticking a ruby on the stoppered end of a flute.
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2003-01-25 14:46
Gee Ken,
Anything empirical to back that up?
Hard to believe anything external, and angstroms thick can have an impact on a wavelength as large as anything audible.
The 1/4 wavelength coatings apply to LIGHT waves for filtering.
The primary advantage in gold plating is that is won't tarnish.
Audible? Prove it.
It's like sticking a ruby on the stoppered end of a flute.
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Author: William
Date: 2003-01-25 15:09
Some follow-up comments:
1) the cost of gold plating my R13 Bb was $180.00. Overhaul costs an additional $100.00. I believe the companies name that did the plating was Allied.
2) the bell ring could not be removed for gold plating, but was lacqured, much the same as a brass intrument and looks good.
3) the gold plate was applied over silver plating that already existed.
4) the clarinet does not play any better because of the gold plate, just looks cool. Curiouly, however, my gold plated R13 is lighter (in weight) than my orchestral R13, even though the serial numbers are within 1,000 digits of each other. (silver 73XXX; gold 74XXX) I have no idea why.
5) I have not taken any special care of the plating--no periodic polishings, buffings or other cleanings. It has just lasted beautifully (maybe I'm just lucky).
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2003-01-25 16:17
The gold plate can be applied over the existing silver plate so long as it is in good shape. The keys have to be buffed and degreased before the plating process. Any keys or posts that show wear must be plated with silver before the gold can be applied. Silver plate can be applied to silver plate without stripping the old plating, however, nickel does not adhere well to nickel unless the keys are stripped of their plating, buffed, degreased and plated again with nickel. This I have learned by talking with Craig at Anderson Silver Plate.
I do not believe the plating of the keys has anything to do with tone production. I would have to be convinced.
Resonators do have an effect on tone quality. There is much discussion/argument/agreement about resonators with saxophone players. I am convinced that plastic resonators, domed resonators, and wavy resonators affect tone production in saxophones. I also believe that resonators in clarinet pads affect tone production to a degree, but other elements weight in more such as mouthpiece, barrel, reeds, etc.
jbutler
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Author: Peter
Date: 2003-01-25 18:05
William said:
"...however, my gold plated R13 is lighter (in weight) than my orchestral R13, even though the serial numbers are within 1,000 digits of each other. (silver 73XXX; gold 74XXX) I have no idea why."
This is very interesting. A couple of years ago, I said on this BB, something to the effect that you could tell the difference between the old clarinets and the newer ones by sheer weight, alone. That the older instruments were made of a denser wood and better metals, therefore they were noticeably heavier.
At the time I caught some flack over this statement, which I still hold as gospel truth, and this might be a reason why one of your instruments is noticeably lighter than the other. Especially since it seems the lighter one is the newer one of the two.
Perhaps in between that thousand numbers there was a major effort at making a "new and improved" version of the old tried and true model, which Buffet might have had at one time.
It seems that, as of the last several years Buffet has been living on past glory, good marketing technique and the dogged determination of the old-time Buffet users not to be "proven wrong" and to force the declining brand on their students.
Buffet is "the" clarinet for professional use about as much as Nikon cameras have been "the professional's choice" all these years. But, as Kipling might have said, "That's another story."
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-01-25 21:06
Peter wrote:
>
> At the time I caught some flack over this statement, which I
> still hold as gospel truth, and this might be a reason why one
> of your instruments is noticeably lighter than the other.
Luckily I'm not religious. Since just one counterexample tosses out "gospel truth", consider it tossed.
The newer ones aren't always ligher than the older ones. I've checked. More than one newer one is heavier than an older one. I have no idea as to trends, just that your statement carries no weight in the specific (pun intended).
But you'll have to take my word on faith.
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Author: Peter
Date: 2003-01-25 22:41
Mark C.,
I do accept your word if you say you checked. Just out of curiosity, were the instruments you checked of the same brand and model, but of different ages? Especially with longer spans of time between the ages?
That's what I do and/or did, and while I found some that were approximately the same weight, old to new, I also found most of the lighter ones were of considerably newer manufacture.
On some, the weight difference was almost negligible, especially if there was not a great deal of difference in their ages, on others, the difference was immediately obvious by hefting one in each hand, never mind the scale.
All this takes place due to my assinine curiosity to know what makes everything be what it is. Oh, well!
But without a doubt, I believe that the results you just stated are, in fact, what you found through whatever way you made your own test. Unfortunately for most of us, none of this is anywhere near an exact science, otherwise all clarinets would play equally well, or equally badly.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-01-26 00:11
Peter wrote:
>
> Mark C.,
>
> I do accept your word if you say you checked. Just out of
> curiosity, were the instruments you checked of the same brand
> and model, but of different ages? Especially with longer spans
> of time between the ages?
Various Buffet R13s from 1956 through 1995.
> That's what I do and/or did, and while I found some that were
> approximately the same weight, old to new, I also found most of
> the lighter ones were of considerably newer manufacture.
Which, of course, is far from the "gospel truth" that newer ones are lighter than older ones.
Perhaps if you got a few, stripped the keys off, and weighed the wood, and measured the wood's volume, you might find that:
1) The keywork today is lighter or heavier or
2) the walls of todays clarinets are thinner or thicker or
3) the wood today is less or more dense or ...
Make a hypothesis. Then create some experiments.
Did you ever finish the experiment you said you were going to report on over a year back?
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Author: Peter
Date: 2003-01-26 00:43
Actually, I had forgotten all about it during my recent hiatus to parts unknown.
I didn't finish it, but my friend, one of the music students to whom I passed it, did, and the largely variable finding was that the reeds lose many of the upper and middle harmonies when played with a piece of tape attached to the vamp, approximately a quarter of inch below the tip.
Different types of tape dampened the sound more or less, but all pretty much worked on reducing the upper and middle harmonies, while enhancing(?) the lower ones, or perhaps I should say, while allowing more of the lower tones to become more prominent in the sound. In some of the masking tape samples, lightweight masking tape actually enhanced some of the upper harmonies while dampening others, dampened the middle harmonies and enhanced the bottom.
Perhaps that's why the tape on the reed "makes" a clarinet play with a "darker" sound. The test was also repeated using a saxophone, with about the same results.
I still can't tell you for certain if the change the tape creates is good or not. I guess, as with everything dealing with the subject of tone, it depends on who is listening to it and what it sounds like to them.
For sure, I'll tell you that with most of the lighter tapes, the sound was not appreciably muddy to the bare ear. Maybe someone with a better ear can hear more of a difference, but we didn't.
The worst one was duck or duct tape (pick your favorite name,) it did make the sound appreciably muddy.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-01-26 01:10
Peter wrote:
>
> I didn't finish it, but my friend, one of the music > students to
> whom I passed it, did, and the largely variable finding was
> that the reeds lose many of the upper and middle harmonies when
> played with a piece of tape attached to the vamp, approximately
> a quarter of inch below the tip.
Oh. I was looking forward to the preliminary results from your acoustics engineer friend and spectrum analysis.
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Author: Peter
Date: 2003-01-26 01:24
That's to whom I was referring. I also gave it to two other people, but apparently, they weren't quite as interested and put it aside. But I was there with the other one when the tests were done and I know those were done.
The spectrum shots were made with my electronic camera and the spectrum picture was generated with my $51,000.00 Tektronix spectrum analyzer.
I'll e-mail her and see if she still has the actual screens from the spectrum shots. This was more than a year ago...
She originally thought it would be a good subject to do a paper on, but as it turned out, the results were too varied and she gave it up after delving into it some more.
She has since moved back to the mid-west. I'll give her a holler tonight and let you know, probably by tomorrow.
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Author: Bob
Date: 2003-01-26 15:21
I have the feeling that much or some of the "wear" that takes place on keys(and ligatures) is actually corrosion. I am aware of some players whose "body fluids" can corrode plating quite quickly. Gold being more corrosion resistant than some other platings may hold up better for some people than others. When one starts talking about saxs it is important to differentiate between actual gold plating and gold colored lacquer.
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