 The Ethnic Clarinet
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Author: Fanatic
Date: 2005-08-23 09:31
Hi all,
I´m new on this board and my english is not really good but hopefully good enough to understand each other.
I´m playing Boehm Sytem Clarinets ( Bb & G or SOL ) and I´m interested in all kind of Balkan music & 1/4 tone Scales.
Ok.
I´m a Greek Clarinet style fanatic and I hear specially " Vassilis Saleas ". I think that I have all his Albums. He´s great.
There´re also a few Other Clarinetists like " Manos Achalinotopolous " or " Makis Bekos " ... it´s almost te same style.
Now what I would like to knw is:
1. How is it possible to get this special sound ?? It sounds almost like a violin. ANd sometimes like a mixture of a buzzbag or a violin.
2. Do they have special clarinets ? ... if yes .. where can I buy these ?
3. Is this a special breath technique ? if yes .. how can I learn this ?
It would be very very very nice if somebody can answer me this questions.
Thank you in advance and Kind regards
Fanatic
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2005-08-23 15:44
Hi Fanatic,
Where did you find the Boehm G/Sol clarinet?? I've never seen one.
I have a Turkish "Albert" Sol klarnet which I play very very poorly. Mostly I play Balkan music on my Boehm Bb clarinet. The Bulgarians and Macedonians typically (although not always) use Boehm instruments with a Vandoren 5JB mouthpiece and very soft reeds.
I'm afraid I have no specifics on the questions you ask. Kalakos will hopefully see your post and answer them! He's the real Greek expert here...
Katrina
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2005-08-23 17:31
As far as I know, there are 2 builders who make G-pitched alto clarinets.
Orsi and L. A. Ripamonti.
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Author: Kalakos
Date: 2005-08-23 21:20
Hi:
Katrina was right, I saw this and will add a couple of thoughts.
One is that most of us use the Albert system, which seems to add a special tonal quality. I'm not sure if it's the bore, or the fewer keys and holes that does this. By the way, I personally feel the tone is even better when the klarino (Albert or simple system clarinet) has no "matoyialia" (eyeglasses or rings) on the upper section.
Second, we tend to use softer reeds (1 or 1 1/2). (Although Dimitris Sourmelis who played for our wedding many years ago told me he used to use #4 reeds in the old days - 1920's and 30's.) The mouthpiece may also be a factor. It took me a long time to find something that helped that pretty sound, and I found Robert Borbeck #14 and #16 mouthpieces about 20 or some years ago. Some klaritzides put wax in the inside upper part of the mouthpiece to help get the sound they want.
Finally, as in all folkloric genres, there is a style and tone that the "people" like and/or use, and you play this way because "that's the way it's supposed to be." I think that when playing a musical instrument, this style comes to you because that is what you are immersed in. I guess a person has to be patient, and it will come.
By the way, Saleas' recordings were never my favorites because his sound seemed so thin to me on the records. However, when I saw him live in Greece, he had a beautiful BIG tone that I really enjoyed. Also, he bounced all over his chair as he played; he was really into his music, and that made me love his style! He was a good klaritzis!!!
Good luck and most importantly, enjoy the music!!
Best,
John
Kalakos
Kalakos Music
http://www.TAdelphia.com
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Author: Fanatic
Date: 2005-08-24 05:27
Hi Katrina,
I´m Living in Germany and there´s a Clarinet Manufacturing named " Karl Hammerschmitt & Soehne " in a small city in the south called " Burgau ".
I think the switch into the ALbert System in " G/Sol " would take too long for me as the Distance between the rings/holes is to big I think. I think I would get a cramp in my hands :o)
MY Clarinet is like made for my hands I think... hahaha
It´s my favourite clarinet. By the way, I have the Vandoren 5JB, too. Most of the time I´m playing Macedonian, Turkish, Bulgarian & greek style.
Can I ask you where´re you originally from ?
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Author: Fanatic
Date: 2005-08-24 05:37
HI Kalakos,
thank you very mouch for your answer.
Do you know how to put this wax into the mouthpiece ? You may laugh, but I ´ve allready been thinking about to put something into the mouthpiece and many many other crazy ideas :o)
It´s simply just the tone/sound which is my problem. I can play what I hear whithout any problem. I have no problems with the 1/4 tones ( Arabic Scales ) I play also this Insian Styles which they have in the past times. It´s just the sound of them ... just the sound ...... just the sound ...
I don´t know what I would do to have just this sound :o)
Ok. So lets put some wax into my mouthpiece ....
Thank you Kalakos
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Author: Kalakos
Date: 2005-08-24 07:13
<<Do you know how to put this wax into the mouthpiece ?>>
Hi, Fanatic:
As for the sound, it's kind of like the sculptors say: they cut everything away from the item they are sculpting that is not the item. :-)
In other words, you keep playing until the sounds you don't like "go away," and the sound you want is left! I'm not being silly here; that's about the only way I can describe it. I guess it means if you are classically trained you might need to forget the rules they taught you.
As for the wax: I was taught to turn the mpc upside down and drip candle wax from a burning candle into the opening that the reed will go over. You make the wax build up on the inner top of the mpc, back where the angle begins to straighten up. I guess a person could use modeler's clay or wax instead and have more control.
I hope I've helped you a little.
Good luck!!!
Best regards,
Kalakos
Kalakos Music
http://www.TAdelphia.com
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Author: Fanatic
Date: 2005-08-24 07:48
Hi Kalakos,
I think i know what you mean. Well, I´m coming very close to this sound but it´s not really that what I want. I came closer to this sound as I tryed to find out another way to blow into the clarinet while making experiments with the Jaw or with my lips and so on ...
I´m not classical trained as I had no music lessons at all. I learned by loving the music and by hearing. Nobody teached me even one scale. This was arround 7 years ago. This doesn´t mean that I never played an instrument before. I´ve used to play keyborads but also the same situation. I had no teacher. I´ve learned by hearing. I cannot read notes :o)
Our music is very very impovisationed music.
I think if I would have someone who could teach me to get this sound I would be able to do this within a few hours. I´m very shure.
But anyways ... thanks a lot Kalakos. That´s very nice from you
Kind regards
Fanatic
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Author: Bass
Date: 2005-09-23 18:33
Hi Fanatic, I just emailed you some questions about you G clarinet, I hope you get it. I too have been struggling with getting the Greek style sound of my clarinets. I hope you and I can help each other to get there. I have the Bb, G and Eb Albert System Clarinets from Amati, they are okay but not good enough. I also have thousands of Greek songs and many clarinet CDs including Vassilis Saleas and Manos Achalinotopolous, so you see, I am too in the same journey as you are. Did the wax thing work for you?
Regards,
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Author: Fanatic
Date: 2005-09-26 06:46
Bass wrote:
> Hi Fanatic, I just emailed you some questions about you G
> clarinet, I hope you get it. I too have been struggling with
> getting the Greek style sound of my clarinets. I hope you and
> I can help each other to get there. I have the Bb, G and Eb
> Albert System Clarinets from Amati, they are okay but not good
> enough. I also have thousands of Greek songs and many clarinet
> CDs including Vassilis Saleas and Manos Achalinotopolous, so
> you see, I am too in the same journey as you are. Did the wax
> thing work for you?
>
> Regards,
Hello Bass,
And the wax was not success at all. Probably I did it wrong or something. Personally I had the feeling that it was just a litte little bit easier to blow.
I was always assuming that it has something to do with the Albert bore, inspeccialy the low pitched ones.
I´m very very shure that I would get the sound I need if I had a low pitched Albert Clarinet. I´m coming very close to the sound but it´s still not THAT SOUND !!
If you can tell me where I can get good Albert System Clarinets ??
By the way this ALbert Clarinet´s you have are not Low pitched Clarinets !!! If you take a look on the CD Cover of Manos, you will see that the Duo Dezim key ends straight in the middle of the upper part and not somewhere on the side.
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Author: Bass
Date: 2005-09-26 16:49
Hey Fanatic, what do you mean they are not low pitched? are you saying that the Amati Albert system clarinets are high pitch? and how can i tell? i have been trying to get some sounds that the Greeks and Turks get out of there clarinets but haven't been able to do it, is it because i have a high pitch clarinet?
as for a good Albert system clarinet that you are looking for, i am the wrong guy to ask. i was bidding on a G Clarinet on eBay, i went as high as $900.00 but lost the bid, it really looked like an authentic and good low pitch G clarinet.
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Author: Kalakos
Date: 2005-09-26 18:16
Hello;
The sound is partly the klarino (clarinet) and partly thr player. Whether high or low pitch, the Albert will be similar in sound. C klarina sound different from Bb's. Many old timers loved the Bb hogh pitches because they were closer to the C clarinets' tone but a little lower in pitch and thus easier for male singers to sing along with. The other instrumrnts would tune to the Bb HP as the "C" note (violi, laouto, santouri).
Definitely, the Boehm makes it hard to sound "authentic." Any Albert will be fairly good. There are also different sounds that each guy comes ou with.
You can tell that it is Yiaouzou, or Kyriakatis, or Anestopoulos, or Malliaras, or whever.
My advice: get an Albert (simple system); I prefer C. PLAY it!
Good luck.
John (Yiannis)
PS check out my website.
www.greekfolkmusicanddance.com
t
Kalakos
Kalakos Music
http://www.TAdelphia.com
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Author: Bass
Date: 2005-09-26 18:40
Hi John, remember me? i bought three clarinets from you few month ago. anyway thanks for the advice. i have few questions if i may:
1. do you know of anyone that have a DVD or a video tape to teach the fundamentals of playing the Greek, Turkish clarinet?
2. i was told that i can sand or shave the reed to make it thinner and easier to play, can you tell me how?
3. how far should i place the ligature?
4. what is the proper mouthpiece position for playing Greek, Turkish, etc...? basically do you place the upper teeth on top and byte the bottom lip like the western players do or do you byte both lips? I am sorry for my poor clarinetist terminology.
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Author: Kalakos
Date: 2005-09-27 15:06
Hi, Bass:
Yes; you must be Bassam!! Hello again.
Try starting with a #1 reed, even Rico Royale. Many Greek musicians use 1 or 1 1/2 reeds. You shouldn't have to shave the reed any more.
I don't know of any dvd's etc. for lessons unfortunately.
Put the ligature between the lines that are usually present. Most Greeks use the lower lip and upper teeth type of embouchure, but don't hold the clarinet down close to the body like classical musicians do (they hold it with the bell more up and away from the body. That does tend to change the emboucure as well.
I hope you are making progress with the klarino!!!
Good luck.
Kalakos
Kalakos Music
http://www.TAdelphia.com
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Author: mms
Date: 2005-11-01 04:29
hi all
how r u
Fanatic, plz can you tell me Did you obtain access to a result ?
i play Bb clarinet since 1 year
but now i want buy new clarinet same the sound vassilis saleas
my thinking was G clarinet the breath of the sound will be issued?
can you tell i buy G clarinet amati or not , for that i want same sound clarinet vassilis saleas
any one can help me plz
thank you Fanatic and all here
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Author: Bass
Date: 2005-11-01 14:59
I have the AMATI Albert System Keys in G, Bb and Eb. i like the Bb the most but recently i have made some adjustments to the keys on my G clarinet and beginning to like it. the only thing I don't like about the AMATI G is the large spacing between holes. I paid about $1,100.00 for it. I would love to be able to buy the Yamaha Bb but unfortunately no one sell them in the USA. I emailed them, they have answered but couldn't help. as for the sound that Vassilis generate it is not only the clarinet bur also uses a transducer or a pickup and uses a microphone with some effects. I have been developing a transducer for the lat year or so and have come up with a good set, I’ll be glad to post a video clip of me playing just to let you hear the sound, WARNING!!! I am a only a beginner so don’t expect me to sound like Vassilis, it will take me five life times to able to do some of the things he does. Well if you find something on how the Greeks develop such a sweet sound please let me know. Good Luck,
PS. Where are you from?
Bass,
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Author: Fanatic
Date: 2005-11-02 00:25
Hi @ all.
As Bass allready said. It´s not only the CLarinet. Well for me it´s 70 % CLarinet & 30 % the player.
It´s also the mouth technique. I´m getting almost the same sound with both clarinets. " G " & " Bb " ... but I´m really really sure that I just need an " A " klarinet with Low pitch. That´s all. Im very sure to this. I´m playing all their songs perfectly as I practiced them every day again and again.
As for the effects & Pickups ... Sorry .. that´s not correct. Vassilis uses just an " BOSS " Octaver OC2 .. that´s all. He played on my cousins Circumzision. :-) He also doesn´t use a special ickup as my many people think. He uses an hearing aid. ( See also the Pickup thread )
He played there for arround 6 hours. He played there and also the famous Hüsnü Snlendirici. ... This was the best combination I´ve ever heard.
If you take a look on the clarinets of Vassilis Saleas, Manos Achalinotopolous, Makis Mbekos ( they all have the same sound ) they use an Low Pitch CLarinet.
You can recognize it on the Duo Dezim Key. It ends straight in the middle of the upper joint.
That´s all. If you still have questions, let me know guys ..
Regards
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Author: Bass
Date: 2005-11-02 15:25
Hey Fanatic, did you find a G clarinet yet? as for Vasilis I bought a CD of his titled NOTES PSIHIS and on the front photo his clarinet has some kind of a pickup, most modern Greek clarinetist use a pickup, so I am assuming it is a pickup or transducer of some kind. my good friend Lefteris Bournias who is one of the pros had helped me tremendously to learn how to play, i still have few lifetimes to go to be half as good as he is, but he said that it is about 90% mouth and 10% fingers. when he plays a wooden or a metal clarinet you can't tell the difference.
PS. I am creating a new website called www.greek-turkish-clarinet.com there I’ll have a topics, information, clips from pros, forum and much more all to be dedicated for Greek and Turkish Clarinet style only. I hope to see you there. this website will be up and running within a month or so.
Bass
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Author: JT
Date: 2005-11-02 19:14
Greetings all,
I am amazed that no one has mentioned flattening the notes with the lips to get that sound. Having briefly learnt from a Greek gypsy teacher, who played both a Bb and an A Albert system clarinet, it was obvious that he used higher pitched clarinets which he tailored for himself by cutting the barrels so as that he could flatten the sound and still be on the right key without sounding flat.
Thus, I think you need to do the opposite, get a higher pitched A clarinet and flatten the sound so as that it can match that in the CD's. When I first did this, the notes had a very artificial sound to them yet with time and practice I strengthened them to what I wanted.
Lastly, the three Greek clarinetists you mention, are also my favourite as well however, I do tend to favour Ahalinotopoulos alot more, (probably becasue I have seen him live). There is one more clarinetist that is brilliant as well, Dimitris Lazos, he is quite young but can really blow that horn.
regards,
Jim
jimt1@telpacific.com.au
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Author: electravox
Date: 2006-02-11 07:12
I've been on a similar quest for a few months now.Albert system,soft reeds,emboucher, these all play a part- and if I might add my 2 cents-a wooden mouthpiece. Seems to give it that warm velvety tone-that "buzz".And of course if you want to sound greek you have to ornament the way the greeks do.....
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Author: greekboy
Date: 2006-03-20 15:31
Hi Fanatic,
I share the same interest as you do. Currently I play the toubeleki and bouzouki, and am very interested in playing the clarinet, how you put it, "Greek style". If you or anyone can help me that would be great. I am new to woodwind intruments and I know nothinig. I have researched and considered buying a cheap yamaha from ebay but now after reading these messages, I dont think that will cut it. What clarinet should I buy for a reasonable price and as a beginner, and also what is a reasonable price?. I want to play the arabic, indian, and greek scales. Which clarinet will give me those sounds (or what mouthpiece set up for that matter). Also, is there any special book for beginners that can teach me just the notes and basic stuff, and I am pretty sure, with the knowledge of the other two instruments i play, I can pick up the songs. So all i need to know if what clarinet to buy, where to buy it, and a book for the basics. Thank you all, and I hope to hear from you soon!
Fotis
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Author: Fanatic
Date: 2006-03-20 15:43
Hi GreekBoy,
all what I can tell you is that you need an Albert System Clarinet with an open Mouthpiece and very soft reeds.
I don´t know if there´s a book for the basics. I´m sure that you can find basic books in every big music stores.
As for me, I never had any clarinet lessons before. Ok I´ve played keyboards before which makes it a lot easier. But it took a lot of time for me to find the right technique. How to get the qurtertones for arabic scales. A clarinet is not a keybord where you can click somewhere and everything is arabic.
But as long as I know " KALAKOS " is our greek specialist.
If you have any questions, please ask.
Kind regards and good luck
FANATIC
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Author: Bass
Date: 2006-03-20 16:09
Also for more information you can go to www.greek-turkish-clarinet.com check the forum as well there are many great topics about these two styles. some of the members have posted clips of their own showing how you can play the quarter notes and so on.
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Author: greekboy
Date: 2006-03-20 18:40
thank you all for your help. I also await to see what "kalakos" has to say. I look forward to keeping in touch with you all.
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Author: Kalakos
Date: 2006-03-24 05:33
Hi, Greekboy:
I just checked this site and saw your posts. They have given you good advice. You need an Albert or a Simple system clarinet. Most use Bb, but I love the C or "Do" klarino. You have to immerse yourself in the music, and try to play anything you hear that you like (by ear). Also, the best musicians for playing Greek dance music are also the best dancers. It is really important to know the music and the dances from both inside and outside. Many of us use soft reeds, 1 or 1 1/2. The mouthpiece is whatever works for you. I really really like Borbeck 14 or 16, but Grabner's "jazz" mouthpiece is good also (although he has replaced that with a different named mpc I understand).
Good luck to you.
Kalakos
Kalakos
Kalakos Music
http://www.TAdelphia.com
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Author: spiros housiadas
Date: 2006-05-03 02:17
gia sou kalakos.i disagree with you.i think you can get just as good quality sound out of a boehm clarinet.(maybe even better)
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Author: Kalakos
Date: 2006-05-06 06:51
Yeia sou kai sena, Spiro:
It's kind of like the difference in both sound and playing techniques in the traditional 3 string bouzouki and the more modern 4 string bouzouki. You can tell the difference, both in sound and also in how the notes are fingered or made (which is a funcion of the key systems on the clarinets, and the tuning and number of strings on the bouzoukis). This was discussed on the greek and turkish clarinet site run by Bass. Check it out.
Na 'sai kala.
Kalakos
Kalakos
Kalakos Music
http://www.TAdelphia.com
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Author: Danden
Date: 2006-05-28 23:11
Kalinichta folks!
My name is Danny and I'm a 50 yr. old New Yorker who recently started playing again. Since mom is a Sephardic greek jew, at my Bar Mitzvah (and my brother's) we had the Michel and Pappas Orchestra with Nickos Stamis (sp?) at clarinet. All my friends said it was the best Bar Mitvah they've been to because of the music even though we were hippies. Nickos put on a show bendind and dancing on the tables! Greek clarinet music has always been in my soul and when I was 10 my parents sent me for lessons and bought me a Thibouville Freres B Flat student clarinet which I'm still playing. There is one on sale right now on ebay (not mine). I've surprised myself with my ability after all these years not playing. I've probably played 20 times in the last 35 years.
I'm thinking about a new or vintage higher end clarinet. It seems the consensus is to go for an 'A'.
Any suggestions on new or vintage? Brands? Mouthpiece?
By the way, Nickos appears on one of my favorite albums... "Mr. Greek Clarinet" (George Mirros) sp?
Has anyone ever heard it?
Yiassou and thanks for any help........
Dan
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Author: kritikoniko
Date: 2006-10-13 08:38
Geia sas,
Is there any experienced person who would recomend me some really natural sound mikrophone or pikup for life performance with clarinet.
Thank you for reply.
na eise kala
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Author: josh
Date: 2006-10-13 20:13
Here is where you can find one,
http://www.greek-turkish-clarinet.com/pt100.htm
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Author: Condouli89
Date: 2006-11-10 04:28
Hey guys, I'm new here, still don't know how things work seems like a nice place though. A little background info about myself. I'm 17, born in greece moved here when I was 5, started playing drums, guitar and tuba 2 and a half years ago, then June 20th I went and got a clarinet, I had some complications and couldn't really get started but now that I've been playing for a couple of week straight I'm really loving it. I'm learning out of a book, and I know alot about theory so I can teach myself a good amount. I play an albert system buffet clarinet I think key of Eb or E. Can you guys just tell me some bad habits to avoid, good habits to fall in to. The couple that I know are to use alot of air, support with your diaphram, point your chin, and keep your corners tight. Anything else, tips and tricks, scales I should learn(for playing greek music, I'm going to go to this guy when I get a little better but I want to get ahead to make the lesson better when I go), anything really to make me better and things to pratice(exept for maj/min scales, thirds etc, I'm talking tone/sound, not so much technique)
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Author: josh
Date: 2006-11-10 21:17
Hi Condouli89, have you visited www.greek-clarinet.com ? you can find many answers there.
Josh
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Author: kintes
Date: 2007-03-18 01:05
Hey,
Its unbelievable that wax thing really worked well on my clarinet. It is amazing. I was always wanting to get the sound that fanatic is talking about, and now i got it with that wax trick. Now i am playing my Boehm sytem Bb clarinet with joy.
I did it with dripping candle inside the mouthpiece. How it works is, if you drip the candle from back of your mouthpiece (where it attaches to the clarinet) by holding the mouthpiece 45 degrees upside down, it runs towards where you put the reed, make sure it stays there. then do this 5 or 6 times from different points, and what happens is when they dry inside and you use your mouthpiece for a while the end of the wax comes out a little bit and all of them act like small reeds inside the mouthpiece giving the clarinet that lovely sound. It also sound like there is a mic attached to the clarinet. Really amazing. I am not sure it will last though but as it is an easy trick i will do it again.
Try it.
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Author: newlife2001
Date: 2010-02-04 00:50
Hello,
I'm also new to this Board. Some folks here were discussing method books for learning the klarnet. I found one online:
Sol Klarnet Eğitimi - 1 (Kitap+DVD) by Serkan Cagri - Tumbala.com
Also, I just purchased a Sol clarinet. Professional model, ebony body, italy pads, usd265.20 from China Music Instruments
Website: www.xuqiumusic.com
With shipping I paid $343.40 (usd)
Now, in full disclosure, my background is as a trombonist, conductor and voice teacher. But I also have a music education degree and studied a year of B-flat clarinet and a year of alto saxophone. Recently, I became involved in this Persian drum circle and took lessons on the zarb (goblet drum). So I've been playing the zarb and the cello in the drum circle.
The alto didn't blend well with the Persian saz (long-necked lute). The B-flat clarinet fared much better but it blended best with the dafs, voices and other instruments when I was playing in the low register.
But I sure wasn't getting the sound I was hearing on the recording by Mustafa Kandirali. At the time I was studying the B-flat clarinet with a woodwind specialist who was getting his doctorate in education and I played him a bit of the Kandirali CD. As a Western musician, he had never heard heard anything like that. But his ideal model of great tone was closer to Richard Stolzman playing the second movement of the Mozart clarinet concerto than Mustafa Kandirali or Vassilis Saleas.
We had no idea how he was getting that sound and we didn't even know that he was using a G clarinet! So this is all very fascinating.
I think my Chinese instrument sounds fine. The Chinese used to produce junk violins, for example, but the quality has really improved overall. My B-flat is a French Martinaux model, also ebony body, and the sound is pretty similar.
I'm planning to study with a Turkish teacher in New York. That's probably the best way to learn how to produce that distinctive buzzing sound. The ideal sound concept for this Greek-Turkish music seems to be a cross between the raucus sound of zurna, which is used with a drum for outdoor festivals and a more refined sound like a Western clarinet playing in a Brahms symphony.
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2010-02-06 00:02
Hi Adam,
This is an experiment that most of us don't have the patience to try.
In 3 to 5 years, it will be interesting to hear how much you have played on your Sol clarinet and how it has held up.
Thanks!
Post Edited (2010-02-07 13:20)
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Author: Alba
Date: 2011-08-12 21:35
Hi there!
I am quite lost with all these clarinets types but I'd like to start playing clarinet and I would like some advice. I really like the greek style one, which ones are they? are they the G and A clarinets? are they more difficult to play than the Bb?
and what's the difference with the turkish clarinet? I have seen other metal ones, very long.. are they G?
I didn't know there are so many types, you can truly get lost!
but I love so much the sound of all.....
thanks in advance!
Alba
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Author: Jimis4klar
Date: 2020-08-20 01:50
I suggest you all hearing Giannis Basilopoulos! To me he's the greatest of all time and may be to you!
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The Clarinet Pages
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