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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2012-07-12 21:53
Hi,
I have been experimenting with the tie length on the staple.
I realize the if you tie the cane "shorter in overall length" you get more belly in the reed.
I find the extra belly gives a more resonant core sound.
Once again, tie length can change the characteristics of a specific shaper tip.
Comments?
Mark
PS: I am still experimenting adjusting a reed with an emery board on the sides as well as adjusting the tip, blend, heart, etc.......... You can make a reed more parallel - rectangular etc.... or any other shape! All course this works best with a wider shaper tip.
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2012-07-12 22:48
Indeed shorter tie gives a wider belly, but also cuts down on stability.
First of all, it depends on the staple, and to some degree, the gouge.
Some staples are flatter than others. The smaller the opening, the flatter it is. Similarly, the bigger the opening, the sharper the staple is.
The Weber book says that you should generally tie as long as you can while being able to tie it and have it seal. Mr. Weber stresses stability, so this mentality works for him.
I find that certain shapes tie better at different lengths. For example, the Mack Pfeiffer gets really wide up top, but is very narrow down in the throat, and if I tie at 73mm but don't scrape it right, it gets too shallow, short, and small. Therefore, I opt to tie it shorter around 72mm. Mr. Mack would fold the piece of cane over the ears, and tie it really short, which would basically make the throat area really wide and get a fatter sound (and a flatter reed).
I also use Mr. Weber's 1-C. It's closer to a Gilbert -1, and it works well at 73mm, and 74 sometimes if I need a slightly flatter reed.
So to summarize, I'm not sure there's a "golden rule" of tying, but evaluate how reeds turn out, and if they're too shallow, tie them shorter. If they tend sharp, tie longer. If you can't get them stable enough, tie longer. etc.
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2012-07-13 01:05
Cooper, once again, your reply is gold!
My teacher always said to "tie for closing" and this produces more stable reeds.
I have found (by un/happy mistake) that winding the thread much lower than the end of the staple (a full 2mm before the end) does not seem to adversely affect the reed in any way at all (as long as it seals) whereas even 1 twist of thread beyond the staple chokes it something awful.
In terms of length-for-belly, I want to say that I've noticed an impact on opening, but I cannot say that this is an important factor (compared to cane density and health). More experimentation required.
But what you wrote, Cooper, does jive with my own observations. I guess that the shape descriptions (does it flare to the end, does it curve or angle, etc.) might play with where the blades close (and staple characteristics) in terms of stability..... then again so do lips and teeth and breath..... so I'm a big fan of going nuts with experimentation. People's experience should be used to waste less time, but not to exclude possibilities.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2012-07-13 01:26
Hi all,
On thing that needs to be mentioned too in reference to the tie length - is the effect on the opening of the reed.
Mark
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2012-07-13 10:03
Right, that's what my own experiments are inconclusive about. It's possible that I have too many variables because I use lots of different staples and shapes and I use pretty much all the cane that I have ..... which eventually gets gouged at different thicknesses due to density and a beaten-up old machine....
At any rate, I prefer it when they are just a bit too open, then I dig grooves down the back to close them.... I don't call those windows because it's really just removing the bark in 2 slits.
But if anyone has consistent observations, that would be very interesting to read.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2012-07-13 16:22
Here are my findings based on 30 years of reading, reedmaking and experimentation. I am an engineer by profession, a skilled craftsman and a detail person, so I hope I have something to offer here.
The single most important factor when purchasing staples and cane, and shaping and tying-on is that the blades seal against each other all the way to the tip. This ensures that the vibrations begin at the tip and nowhere else.
The second critical factor (as Robin pointed out) is that the blades be free to vibrate in sympathy, there is no constricting cord around the throat of the cane, in other words: don't EVER wrap above the end of the staple.
Everything else pales into insignificance.
What are the forces that press the blade-edges against each other? Three factors here:
o the shape of the staple at its tip
o the tightness of the thread at the tip of the staple
o the shape of the cane (throat, belly and tip)
The shape of the staple at the tip imparts a "twist" to the sides of the cane, and along the 23 mm of blade this twist gradually unwinds almost to the unstressed natural curvature of the cane.
The thread must be tight enough to impart the twist, but loose enough that cane fibres are not seriously damaged/cut. If the thread goes over the top of the staple it chokes the reed making it unresponsive. If the crossover wrap is just below the end of the staple and a fraction looser, the reeds seem to have the best results.
The shape of the cane governs how the twist unwinds along the blade - is most of the springy pressure imparted near the throat? the belly? Ideally, you want it to have an even closing pressure all along both edges of the reed, to the tip.
And so (finally) to the subject of the thread [groan]
If you tie too long (overall length) a gap can form between the blade edges where they meet the staple. You can seal it with saran-wrap/plumber's tape but if it is not sealing properly from the start, the blades are not tight against each-other.
If you tie too short there can be a lot of overlap between the blades. Some players like this, but I don't. I think it alters the volume of air inside the reed, changing the dynamics and playing characteristics. Worst of all it will be inconsistent - it is much harder to get a "consistent" overlap than it is to get a perfect seal with no overlap.
Okay, it was a bit more than 2 cents this time, but I hope, helpful?
J.
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2012-07-14 01:26
All very good advise... my 2 cents...
What is crucial is the final finished length. What most people don't consider is that tying length affects this adversely as the amount you have cut creates the final size of the opening. Without considering the use of wire (on short scrape reeds...), whether one ties longer or shorter (provided the reed seals in both cases) makes no difference on the opening. The difference in pitch is of course caused by the length difference and width of the belly. To overlap or not affects everything as well. There is much less strength when one overlaps but this can be compensated with a certain type of scraping, shaper tip as well as blowing. So flexible is the oboe (and the oboist)! My own tie length of 71.5mm (on 45mm staples) to play at 442 is almost always finished at about 71mm, no shorter! I use a fairly wide shape by most standards but the neck is narrow, but most crucial is that cutting the least as possible allows for actually using cane which has a selected diameter, if not, that would all be pointless!
Howard
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2012-07-31 19:58
Okay, I am way simplistic in this department but will add another 'penny' to the conversation.
I find that no matter what shape I am working with, what I was taught way back in the 70s still works pretty well: The folded cane should be 'about halfway' down the staple. I experiment too but it seems this old advice works better than fussing with measurements all the time. (This irritates my engineering friends, I know.) My wrapped reeds come out at about 75 mm which I know is WAY long but the final result seems to work.
Of course I must adjust to accommodate a narrower shape, i.e. tie a bit shorter (with the folded cane being more than 'halfway' down the staple). I take my time when wrapping and tend to pull the first wrap quite slowly to avoid cracks. If I pay close attention to how the cane is closing with the final wrap or two, making sure that it's aligned on every plane, I usually get very good results (no leaks).
GoodWinds
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