 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2012-06-08 15:57
Hi,
I am having more success moving to a wider shaper tip. My reeds are now up to pitch in the upper register. I have made reeds with a RDG 1 and a Lucarelli Tip from the 80's. Previously I used a RDG -1 shaper tip.
The tone has more depth to it.
However, I have found that my embouchure now becomes fatigued at a faster rate than before when I played the the narrower tip. The wider tip requires more embouchure support and air.
Comments?
Mark
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2012-06-08 18:26
I'm guessing that, having found the balance of architecture that works for that tip, that the resistance is greater due to different architecture, rather than to a direct correlation between width and resistance.
But it's hard to know anything real from this perspective. The good news is your tone has more depth to it. And after you do a few more embouchere push-ups, you won't fatigue as easily either.
Progress is a good thing...
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2012-06-10 23:51
Well,
I compared the tone from the reeds made from the wider RDG 1 to the ones made on the 80's Lucarelli shaper tip. The Lucarelli Shaper tip is wider than the RDG 1.
The tonal properties are superior with the Lucarelli shape.
All the reeds are now up to pitch. The only adjustment I made was a slighter shorter tip. From 4mm sides and 3 mm center - to slightly less 4mm on sides and 3mmm in the center.
I really believe my new gouge blade curve and past oboe tunings ... as well as greater skill has enabled me to go back to a wider shaper tip. I no longer have any problems with pitch stability.
I also believe ... since I do not have perfect pitch .... that my solfege lessons (fixed do) also improved my playing.
So I think it's back to a wider shape ..... I'll experiment to see which one suits me the best and my Marigaux Oboe.
Mark
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2012-06-15 00:37
You're just the kind of person I like to reply to! I am also taking fixed Do solfege lessons (self-inflicted!), but I do have perfect pitch. However, I don't think I ever insisted, that others, especially in woodwind quintet playing, adjust their pitch to mine, unless of course, it was on the low C-sharp! It was usually much easier for me to adjust to them. There's an interesting story about a conversation between Ray Still and the late conductor, Istvan Kertesz. Already, Ray had a great deal of respect for Kertesz, so when Kertesz approached Ray after a rehearsal and asked him if he was playing a little on the low side, pitch-wise. Ray proceeded to explain that what happens during rehearsal and performances, the general pitch level of almost any orchestra starts going up as instruments, especially woodwinds, warmup and unlike most others, he was trying to do something about it. The very next rehearsal Kertesz was on the orchestra about letting the pitch go up. I was probably the first person in Chicago to hear (on the BBC world service) of Kertesz drowning in the sea of Israel. I just couldn't believe they would let such a man go swimming there, unattended and unprotected, in order to avoid like that happening. Regards.
R. Still former student
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2012-06-15 02:19
Fixed - Do ...self -inflicted. YES!
I do not have perfect pitch which I hear can be both a blessing and/or a curse.
I wanted to improve my tone/pitch stability and make it rock solid.
It certainly made a positive difference in my playing.
Mark
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2012-06-15 02:28
Hello again (boring!) but not you!,
While we're on this subject, do I remember correctly that a while back, you said something about making copies of John de Lancie's shaper tip (Wales) and if so, what was it like? Thanks again.
R. Still former student
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2012-06-15 10:32
Back to the topic,
yes, wide reeds will fatigue your embouchure really quickly under the following considerations:
* if your reed plays implicitly flat, your instrument and your habits will naturally and automatically want to raise that.
* this raising requires lots of strength that you're not even aware you're using.
This is true for wider reeds and also for longer reeds. But longer is less tiring.
It is possible to go too far with reed width. I have tried a lot of oboe reeds made with an RDG 2 (no minus) and Kunibert Michel 750 (for oboe d'amore). The sound coming from them and the ease of playing are phenomenal, but the pitch is so low and the unconscious-adjustment detailed above really wrecks the mouth. So far, very open staples only compensate a little bit for this.
I suggest that shapes similar to RDG -2 are a good balance. I have tried samples of it and liked it a lot. I also use the Kunibert Michel 725 and love it completely in all aspects.
But my best advice is to find a shape, length and scraping style that does not fatigue your embouchure (i.e. you can practice for hours and THEN have rubber lips) and work your breathing and embouchure to keep the pitch low, if need be.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2012-06-15 11:53
Robin,
You make an excellent point!
It's difficult finding the balance between more depth in tone and flexibility.
Another negative to a wider shape is I find less response with articulation in the upper register too.
The solo passage in in Holst's Jupiter which requires a little finesse and ease ... I found more difficult to play/articulate up to speed with the wider shaped tip. The response was more sluggish as compared to reeds made with a narrower shape.
I will experiment and see where it leads me. But ease of playing with a comfortable/relaxed embouchure is important as is also response in articulation in the upper register.
Mark
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2012-06-17 21:47
The balance I have always striven for is one where the same embouchere gets me anywhere on the horn, any interval ascending or descending, where the only necessary control is the appropriate wind pressure. The exception to this would be large leaps into the bottom of the first octave, where some relaxation of the embouchere is necessary to allow the reed the wider excursion it needs at those frequencies.
The ideal embouchere pressure is just a tad more than needed to contain the wind pressure. If you need to bite the pitch up, not only will you tire rapidly but you are restricting the reed's vibration to the detriment of your sound.
BF51 - I've got the copy of the deLancie tip in my catalog. It's definitely on the wide side of the spectrum, though not as wide as Joe Robinson's canoe paddle.
I'll be glad to send you one if you want to try it..
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2012-06-21 12:15
Hi,
I guess this thread is more of a blog.
I have decided to go back to the narrower shaper tip.
These are the reasons:
With a narrower shaper tip my embouchure is more relaxed,
With a narrower shaper tip my middle c does not sag,
With a narrower shaper tip the upper register is not flat,
With a narrower shaper tip I have more air,
With a narrower shaper tip the reed is more responsive.
I found it difficult to find a good balance between flexibility and pitch.
I tried making the reeds shorter .... as well as adjusting my scrape to leave more bark by the thread. However, I could not find the balance to keep the reed up to pitch and maintain a good rich flexible tone.
With all the concerts scheduled ... I don't have the time or luxury to "fuss".
Yesterday, in rehearsal - I really felt uncomfortable playing ... the notes sagged. It was not a good day at all.
Now it just might be my setup ... the way I am built .... I guess that's why there are so many shaper tip options.
Maybe when I have time between seasons .... I'll experiment some more.
Now, I know why over the years - I progressively went from wider to narrower shapes!
In the end it all about making music ........ I rather not totally fixate on minimal improvements in tone.
Mark
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2012-06-24 01:21
Y'know - John Mack ended his career playing on one of the narrowest shapes in in the business and his tone was just fine.
I wouldn't stress over the shape but rather what works best for you.
Think for a minute about how you experience the wide range of tonal quality of your colleagues clarinets, flutes, etc. They're different from each other, just as their speaking voices are, but when they play you hear a clarinet or a flute.
In the same way, your colleagues just hear an oboe, unless you aren't comfortable with what you do, in which case they hear your discomfort.
There's a wide range of tastes out there and even the sound you finally end with won't appeal to everyone, but that's a long term journey. Don't try to change everything at once, be comfortable and play music.
My 2 cents worth...
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2012-06-24 13:04
Robert,
My colleagues love my tone (Marigaux 901) .... Never heard a bad word from them ... just the opposite.
As I said before ... It's all about making music and the ability to communicate a musical idea.
If you are not free to do so .... nothing else matters.
Mark
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Author: Wes
Date: 2012-06-25 04:47
For years, I used an RDG -2 shape, fairly wide, but some reeds could not be brought up to pitch A440 easily on a recent Loree. They often were quite stable reeds. Lately, I've also been using an RDG 1 shape which reeds are easily up to pitch A440 but sometimes less stable. While I prefer the sound of the -2 shape, I think few listeners notice differences in the sounds.
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2012-06-26 19:12
Hi just one more thought.
I found that one approach to the problem is to use a wider shape, for example, the Lucarelli shaper tip ... and then take a emery board to the sides.
In essence you create your own shape ... to your specifications.
I've done this with two reeds - the outcome was not too bad.
Why not! We scrape, clip, tie, gouge, etc........ why not adjust the sides as well as needed/required?
Of course - just using one shape probably is much less a hassle!
Didn't Howard mention that his teacher shapes his cane by hand.
Comments.
Mark
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-06-28 10:28
A month or two ago we talked about cane shapes and the effects of response/tone when altered. Here's a link:
http://test.woodwind.org/oboe/BBoard/read.html?f=10&i=22963&t=22963
I mentioned that it might be wise and a good learning process to hand shape some reeds. I have been doing this practice lately, with varying results. I still only have a waste basket 1/4 the way full of reeds. I also hand shape clarinet and sax reeds, with very good results, taking my reed making knowledge from oboe and transferring.
The greatest benefit I see from hand shaping is freeing up response in the reed. I feel sometimes a reed can catch on itself, resulting in a reed with a dull sound that speaks poorly. For myself, a bit of sandpaper to the rails will free the cane from itself, allowing it to perform to it's best ability, which I guess is the end result of the whole reed making process anyhow.
I still have quite a lot to learn about reed making, so hand shaping is a good learning tool. Eventually I hope to have a good understanding of what I'm doing, at which point I would purchase a shaper tip with the dimensions most suitable to my body, and will worry less about hand shaping.
Drew S.
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