 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2012-05-29 00:52
In following the several reed knife discussions over the last few years, I realized that most of them revolve around the 'best' knife, the choice of a beveled or hollow ground blade, or just 'How the blazes to I get a sharp edge??'
I would like to open a thread that focuses on how we scrape and how that affects the choice of our blade profile and not on how to sharpen a knife.
Here's my two cents worth to open the discussion:
My first reed knife was made from a reground straight razor. (You young'uns go Google 'Straight Razor'). This is the current model for the double-hollow-ground knife in it's many iterations.
Later, when I got a job making commercial reeds, I used the knife my employer provided me which had a tapered blade, fat in the heel, narrow at the tip. I loved it and have used a variation of it my entire career, but that's a different part of the thread.
What most interests me is why the choice between a beveled or double hollow ground blade? The beveled blade has a fixed sharpening angle, but don't we put a similar angle on our hollow ground blades? Or do we?
It seems to me that a gouging machine is a clever adaptation of a wood plane and that a reed profiler is a clever adaptation of a gouging machine. (You may or may not agree with the playing results of a profiler, but you have to admit that the mechanical results are just fine...).
Why, then shouldn't the method of sharpening our scraping knives and the scraping actions of our reed making mimic the proven results of the machines that work so well at the mechanics of our craft?
Members of this forum have discussed making very satisfactory knives from planer blades.
I have always sharpened my blades at an (approximately) 30º angle to the center line of the blade and only later discovered that most plane blades are sharpened to an angle close to that.
I'd like to know what other members of this forum think on this topic.
Have at it...
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2012-05-29 01:59
I am, as you know, NOT the mechanical/technical whiz that many of you are.
BUT I learned reed-making from someone who was really good at it...
He taught me that as long as you have a decent quality knife (metal-wise) you can sharpen a pocket knife able to shave a reed! And his very simple way of sharpening a knife has worked for me over many, many years and brought such good results that I am not motivated to change my technique.
When I got a hollow-ground knife, I felt intimidated that a different sharpening technique might be required but the same one works for any knife I've ever owned. It takes me about 30 seconds to sharpen a knife when I am working on reeds.
That's as far as my 'experienced' 'expertise' will take me. I (obviously) like to keep things simple. I don't know what this guy learned from Mr Tabuteau, but he seemed to like to put his own (experienced) spin on things. He was a great teacher.
GoodWinds
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2012-05-29 03:47
AW MAN, Rob., are you ever opening a can of worms here!!!! ![[whoa]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie10.gif) ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
May I add a plea that everyone accept and understand that, like the proverbial chef in a 5-star restaurant, people like knives of different descriptions and sharpened their own way? This doesn't mean that one is right and another is wrong... again, I invoke physiognomy: some people with more dainty wrists might prefer a knife configuration that requires absolutely no muscle-work whereas I, with my overly tight muscles (the main focus of my physiotherapy) find it easier to control a heavy knife that requires lots of control power.... that might also be why I cannot scrape without a mandrel, whereas others dismiss the mandrel for everything but staple selection.
For years and years now, I've been using a Graf folding (half-way between a wedge blade and hollow-ground) with an extra bevel (approx 40 deg.) sharpened so it'll shave my forearms. I like it because the extra bevel helps prevent snagging whereas the very sharp edge allows me to barely touch the cane (even though my wrists are tight) and dust or dig as I choose. I press hard against my other thumb for precision guidance, not to press on the cane.
This being said, I have a Pisoni right-hand bevel at about 30 deg that I've hollowed-out on both the "flat" and beveled faces. Because there is no 2nd bevel, it should dig more. I have to try it again, just to see how it handles tips and so on. I am curious to try a thinner double-hollow for the tips, but I don't intend to abandon the beveled for "rough" scraping. Right now, I avoid gashing my tip by very lightly scraping the tip at 3D angles, such that I'm sure to work only what bumps might be present: this is facilitated by a bellied wood plaque.
What I like in both cases is the hard metal keeps its edge and favours a keen, no-burr edge. The 2nd bevel on the Graf makes it much harder to sharpen, but for me it is more than worth the effort.
I do swing my knife with a rotating wrist action (right hand), but I also push it with my left thumb: my action is controlled, not like many You-Tubes where the oboist is swing-swing-swinging the blade several times a second. My movement is directed, I do intentionally mimic a machine: so I can apply more pressure where the fast-sligners must be much lighter and repetitive.
So, I might not like the soft metal of a Vitry, and I might think burrs are silly, BUT I DO recognize that for reasons of personality, patience, nervous conditions, or what have you, some people might prefer what I reject.
![[toast]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley15.gif)
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
Post Edited (2012-05-29 04:09)
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2012-05-29 03:57
PS I can't comment on your reflection re: machines, because I've little knowledge of them. Our carpentry students in Uganda got pretty good at sharpening their plane blades by hand. I think the angle is of High Importance, though.
GoodWinds
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2012-05-29 20:36
I agree, Goodwinds. Planing articles in 'Fine Woodworking' magazine discuss this in great detail, and as Robin says above, scraping style varies from reed maker to reed maker and can be complimented by the choice of edge angle.
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2012-06-12 01:04
Aw, please tell us how you sharpen your reed knife anyways, as I'm sure I wasn't here to read it the last time and maybe there are some others that would like to reed it, too. Sorry, couldn't resist. Ragards. P.S After just buying about 8 different stones, I have to do something with them!
R. Still former student
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2012-06-12 01:36
Regarding using the hair on the forearm for testing the sharpness of a reed knife, I remember seeing a contributor on Youtube suggesting this. He/she (?) also cautioned to not move the knife sideways, while in contact with one’s arm. Even I shivered a little about that! The name of the contributor seemed to be somewhat familiar, from someplace else. I remember one of my teachers showing me how to use the thumbnail for this test, also, but of course, the thumbnail composition is not the quite the same as oboe cane. But, I felt there must be a better way, somehow. This week, I noticed on that auction site, “you-buy”, that someone was selling some tube-like things, that were about 6” long or so, and about a ½” in diameter and were made out of some kind of weird looking wood that was a yellowish color and some of them, even had spots on the surface. I thought that maybe, if this kind of wood could absorb some water and the surface wasn’t too hard, maybe these could serve as a knife-testing surface that would be really safe, even if the user is a female. I saw somewhere that this type of wood is called “arunondonuts” or something like that. Well, anyway, it’s just a thought. Regards.
R. Still former student
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2012-06-12 01:51
OK, but I know some veterans out there will laugh at me.
I use a double-sided 'artificial' stone ("00 frictionite", it says) -- an ancient thing, it was a gift from Ron Fox who formerly played principal in the San Diego symphony.
I hold the stone in my left hand, and with my right, with the blade edge facing toward me, I stroke the stone 3-4 small circles clockwise; then I turn the stone over and repeat on the finer side. That sharpens the 'shaving' side. Then I turn both knife and stone over, angle the knife with the blade edge facing AWAY from me, and move the circles counter-clockwise.
Sometimes I'll add clean water to the stone surface, but if it's quite clean, I'll sharpen on a dry surface.
Depending on the quality of the metal, I may add an additional step and carefully 'pull' the knife across my palm to slightly curl the edge.
Takes about 30-40 seconds. This works (for me) on any knife.
GoodWinds
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2012-06-12 02:53
to Goodwinds: Your technique sounds very similar to what i used to use, except i think I may have worn out knives a little faster that way. If you would, could you see look at my first reply on this thread and see if it has any merit. Thanks.
R. Still former student
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2012-06-12 10:48
Yes, R. Still Student, that was me. No one needs to be shy to use my own words against me.
There is a problem with testing your edge on your thumbnail or on a piece of cane .... is "arundonuts" trying to disguise "arundo donax", the specific variety of cane used for reeds? The problem is that a knife with teeth will scrape both very well and give you the impression it is sharp, when in fact it is not. Try doing the fine scraping of the tip with something that leaves streaks behind.
Similarly, my brother once boasted of a really sharp knife by slicing (in the air) a cardboard box... I asked him to slice a piece of delicate paper with the same knife: FAIL.
So my challenge has always been: prove the conviction of your words! Everyone says the secret to good reeds is a sharp knife... well demonstrate that your knives are sharp!
One thing for sure, you can't argue with the video "Wrong way"
http://robindeshautbois.blogspot.ca/2011/07/anniversary-recording-knife-sharpening.html
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
Post Edited (2012-06-12 10:53)
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2012-06-12 16:34
I think the BEST way to 'test' the edge of a knife is to see how it's handling the cane. I use the thumbnail test but find that my knife will need sharpening before it 'fails' that test.
Since different people use different grades/densities of cane, this may also affect how often one must sharpen one's knife.
GoodWinds
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2012-06-12 17:08
Goodwinds - the less sharp a knife gets (I hate to even think 'dull') the less it cuts and the more it crushes the fibers under the blade. A softer cane will not cut more easily than a hard cane as the knife becomes less sharp but it will crush more easily. If your knife is not cutting a clean chip then it is crushing lower fibers as it tears the top ones away from the remaining ones.
Do I sound like a religious zealot on this topic? Yep!
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2012-06-13 04:08
a religious zealot that makes sense. Thanks! You've just explained why I'm not doing too well with the softer cane. RE-SET the brain, adjust behavior: presto: the perfect reed.
GoodWinds
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2012-06-13 20:32
Ah! That it were so simple...
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2012-06-14 10:31
Cut vs. crush is absolutely correct.
But it does not eliminate preference for for specific qualities of cane. Depending on your scraping style, embouchure, physical blowing characteristics and perhaps even the individual instrument, you may prefer softer or harder cane.
I used to think soft-ish cane was simply bad untill I got a few really good reeds with short-scrape... and these reeds were made really quickly too! They were not concert-grade, but really good practice grade.
Like a skipping record, I repeat that I believe the most important factor is flat cane (lie it bark-down on the table, shine a light behind and see no rays between the table and bark) - but sharp knives are universally recognized as crucial.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2012-06-14 23:10
If a person isn't a bit of a zealot in this area, then they may be highly suspect. Remember what General Patton (George C. Scott) said about reading the Bible. Some of this info is new for me, which only means that a lot has changed in the last X0 years. As I'm just recovering from being hit by a tree, while I was cutting though the back of the Bank, over to the office I work in. Maybe, they have the trees programmed to do that, when a possible burglar goes through that area! Regards.
R. Still former student
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2012-06-14 23:37
to Goodwinds:
If I had a "perfect reed", I'd be very hesitant to publicize it, for fear of a nationwide, if not worldwide attack on my reed case. If it only lasted one concert, it's value would be in the billions! Hide it!!!
R. Still former student
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