 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: Oboehotty
Date: 2012-05-11 15:44
Hi everyone,
I posted this on the IDRS board with little response. It seems that most people don't truly understand the "What" of what will happen when something is changed on the shaper tip. I have been experimenting with my plethora of shaper tips to allow my college students more success.
What happens specifically, when one or more aspects of the measurements of a shaper tip are changed? (not altered....simply referring to the multitude of shapers out there). Let me clarify: If one makes the tip wider, we know that the high notes will be less stable while the lower notes will have a bit more "meat" to them.
So then, what happens when the tip is kept the same, but a shape is chosen with a wider throat? What if a narrower tip and narrower throat are chosen in combo? What are the specifics of "This will happen when this is changed" to shaper tips?
The westwind site has a GREAT comparison chart of many shapers and while the measurements are there, there is no indication on any site that I can find, that tells what will happen when one chooses a different shaper tip that changes one or more aspect of the measurements.
It seems that I cannot get a good answer on this.
Shawn
Professor of Oboe - Youngstown State University
Howland Local Schools - MS Dir. Of Bands/HS Asst. Dir (Marching, Symphonic)
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2012-05-11 16:06
I've been wondering the exact same stuff, Shawn. When I look at a chart of shaper tips, I get overwhelmed by the numbers, but no one's explaining how the differing dimensions WORK.
So how about it, guys (and gals) who make reeds for a living?
Thanks for asking, Shawn, and thans to the Board for answering this one!
GoodWinds
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Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2012-05-11 23:13
If you find or create that chart, I'd love to see it.
I think there are also other variables impacting a shaper's impact on playing characteristics. And not just tone... all of them.
A few I try to factor in:
Staple construction. Length, tip opening, wall thickness, perhaps material used to make it.
And I remain puzzled for many years over recommended tie-off lengths per shaper.
I tie far longer than any printed recommendations I find in Weber, Shalita, etc.
I tie to close, on 46 mm Glotin staples that fit my 35 year old Loree mandrel perfectly.
Some tie to close longer and some shorter, but all longer than the recommendations of 73 mm on a 47 mm staple. So my 46 mm staples drive the recommendations another mm off the chart.
And by tie to close, I mean the cane finally closes evenly around the staple about 1 - 1/2 thread widths short of the end of the staple.
I have noticed differing cane diameters tie off a little differently in length, but only making 1/2 - 1 mm difference. Tieing off a little shorter forces a bit more cane onto the staple and impacts the tip opening, so useful to fulcrum the tip a bit for varying cane diameters. Read Sprenkle's 'Art Of Oboe' for his explanation. I have a differing opinion on the cause and effects of that variable.
And the length of the pre-shaped blank may vary depending on source or the equipment I've used. One guillotine I have chops a little longer than the one built onto my RDG gouger.
Altitude where you make reeds and play seems to be a big factor, and relative humidity has an impact, as do barometric pressure changes impact playability.
Your question is a very interesting one and I'll bet the full answer will resemble a complex, multi-dimensional matrix of combinations.... and I would love to see it.
I cannot help much with the shaper variables due to having settled into a Brannon-X a long time back but have tried a lot of different ones from friends along the way.
My basic impression is there is a range of suitable values for tip design, cane characteristics and gouge dimensions. Cane has a vote for sure.... softer Vs. harder, growing conditions, et. al., and gouging and scraping can find the potential best reed if things fall within useful parameters.
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2012-05-12 00:32
I agree with the humidity and altitude having an impact on reed construction. Lots of experience there!
GoodWinds
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Author: Oboehotty
Date: 2012-05-12 12:36
Good comments. More interested in what the affect will be on the reed overall, response, depth of sound, etc. when one or more aspect of the shape is changed (tip, throat, belly or any combination). I know what happens when the tip is changed. What happens when the other aspects are changed or two or more aspects are changed in combination to the overall characteristics of the reed?
Professor of Oboe - Youngstown State University
Howland Local Schools - MS Dir. Of Bands/HS Asst. Dir (Marching, Symphonic)
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2012-05-12 15:07
I think your question got so little response because it is a really good question.... in my language, that means it digs into important matters that people might not be able to answer.
I have experimented a lot with shapers and I have come to the conclusion that the choice of "best" shaper depends on:
1. your style of scraping
2. your instrument - not brand, the exact bore and tone-hole placement of your particular instrument
3. your own body characteristics
Apart from width and measurements at the belly and throat, the profile of how curved or angular it is will change how it behaves. I like more angular shapes because - for me - they are more stable and keep a more similar sound in all the range. Otherwise, I have found that narrower makes the super-high register easier to play. But be very careful of going to extremes: I play with the extreme wide for sound quality (more baroque), but it is much harder to scrape and get right.
My best advice is to get samples (at least 20) pieces of shaped cane of different shapes from different vendors and compare to find your favourite.
Best of luck.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2012-05-12 20:51
I agree with Robin, Shawn - that is a really good question. By his definition :-)
And the variables listed by Craig and Robin are pretty much the list I would come up with: instrument, chops & physiognomy, cane diameter, reed style, altitude, weather, and to a great degree, how a reed made from a given shape 'feels', how the resulting balance feels. Obviously, as Robin suggests, you need to play around with the scrape on any given tip to get the closest you can to your desired result (which will be different for different players...).
Although this is a long list, most of these variables will really be constants: same altitude, same instrument, same staples, same body and chops, same cane, same reed style (in the large sense, at least), and, until you change it, the same shaper. This leaves only the weather as the main variable (and how solid your chops are - keep practicing...). If you experiment during stable weather periods, you will have a good platform to base your results on.
Even so, the sum of these other variables interacts with the shape to produce the result, and though you can find a pattern that works in your universe, I think the number of universes made possible by juggling all the variables make it impossible to quantify the effect of a single change in an overall meaningful manner beyond the broad strokes you pointed out in your question. Just my not-so-humble opinion...
It's worth noting here, though, that Bert Lucarelli designed his tip with "the marriage of a Mack top with a Bloom bottom". His is a relatively narrower tip with a relatively fatter throat. I tried it for a while when I first started making it and liked the feel of it but went back to my trusty Brannen X, probably because of the 'comfy bedroom slippers' effect.
And when I first started making the RDG/Mack tips I made an exact copy of the tip that Mack asked Bob Gilbert to have made. John said, "Too narrow. Make it .001 inch wider." I did (that was the Mack+) and John said, "Still too narrow. Make it another .001 inch wider." I did (that was the Mack++) and John said, "Too wide." and finished his career on the Mack+.
I'm unable to distinguish between them - I think the error introduced in shaping is greater than that difference - but who am I to argue with John Mack?
Thanks for the compliments on the Westwind comparison chart, Shawn. You will notice that the measurements are only expressed to one decimal place. Although O measure to 4 decimal places, I only published to a single place to avoid publishing too much proprietary info, but this has the down side of labeling more than one tip with the same measurements, but in all cases, the lower on the chart the tip is, the wider it is. More differences are in the 2nd and 3rd places than in the first, another reason to argue that small changes can make large differences.
I should point out here that Westwind offers the 30 day trial period on shaper tips specifically to allow you to try different tips without having to buy everything you try...
Craig, you are absolutely right in your 'tie to close' approach. There's only one place on the taper of a given shape where there's just enough cane to wrap snugly around the tube and this will be different for different tubes, and for the same tube, different for different shapes.
You can eliminate one of those dreaded variables by making sure all your tubes are the same length and fit your mandrel the same way (preferably exactly...).
Anyway, to sum up my comments, I think Robin got it right - you've got to try different shapes on your setup to find what you need for yourself. And unfortunately for students already floundering in a sea of uncertainties, they need to be fairly proficient reed makers for this process to work for them. I've always felt it was better to get them using a middle of the road tip (my trusty X, for instance) and let them learn to control their reed making first. Otherwise they won't know whether it's the shape or the knife work making the difference...
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: Oboehotty
Date: 2012-05-13 14:39
Thanks all for the thought provoking things. This all came to me a few weeks back when one of my college students was consistently playing flat on my reeds. I subsequently made several more reeds on a more narrow shaper from my office "box of wonders". Immediately, she was able top play up to pitch. Funny thing is that I only use that particular shaper tip in the winter. Temperature was around 75 here at this time of her recital.
In grad school my prof. told me I had "chops of steel". I guess in playing professionally and making reeds for college students, sometimes I forget about all of the aspects everyone mentions as affecting reeds. Funny thing is that I live in a "Mack" heavy area, where most of the players are/were trained from Mr. Mack or a direct student of his. Myself and two other players in the immediate area are not Mack trained players (at least not directly).
I absolutely cannot find success in making my reeds on a Mack/Pfieffer tip OR a -1 tip. I have tried many times.....I have found 2 or 3 tips (Adam Tips) that work well for me and I have stuck with them for quite a while. This student issue has prompted me to experiment so that I can teach them and prepare them for further graduate studies, etc. I just want to make sure I am thinking about all of the variables that come with different dimensinos in shaper tips so I can pass the knowledge on to them. Very interesting this topic. Thanks for your replies! Keep them coming.
Shawn
Professor of Oboe - Youngstown State University
Howland Local Schools - MS Dir. Of Bands/HS Asst. Dir (Marching, Symphonic)
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Author: Bobo
Date: 2012-05-13 15:36
Bob,
I still use a shaper tip which I bought in the mid 70s from Peter Angelo, who was an accessory dealer and freelancer in the NYC area. The little envelope it came in, which I still have, had handwritten on it: "Am sending you my best tip. This style is widely used. P.A."
It has an N at the base in the same place as the Brannen X has an X. I have tried to compare it to a number of tip dimension charts and it comes very close to, and for all I know may very well be, a Brannen N; it is also similar in dimensions to the Ruth tip from the Adam series. It is on the wider side at the tip, at around 7.1mm, and has a fairly parallel sloped heart and narrow base below the wrap point. The shaped cane ties best at 73.5-74.
Do you think the tip is an original Brannen N?
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-05-13 17:54
Let me preface by saying I'm a semi-professional woodwind doubler, a studied but still amature oboist, and I say this not as fact, but as what I believe currently. You may agree or disagree. So...
Shapers seem to be relative to your personal scrape and embouchure, so it's probably best to start with a medium shape, and work from there. People seem to like Brannen X or Pfeiffer-Mack. I happen to like Adams Shapers, probably because they seem to be easiest to compare between themselves. This really should rely on what the teacher is comfortable using.
So I guess the question would be, when I change a certain parameter of the shape, what are the effects? What are the parameters that can be changed anyway?
The easiest parameter to understand would be Tip Opening. This controls how much air is allowed into the instrument. If you are happy with intonation throughout the instrument, but need more or less volume, changing to a smaller shape of the same type (e.g Joshua +2 to Joshua) will decrease the Tip Opening, while keeping the same shape. The smaller should make it easier to play softer, the larger would allow you to play louder.
The rest of the parameters seem to involve how the shape tapers. Measurements at specific points don't provide the whole story, and can really only be used modestly in comparison between different shapes. The reason being that tapers in different shaper tips start at different points, and have different angles.
The main thing that might be true is that the shape acts as a baffle for air. If the space gets smaller, the air speed is sped up. If the space gets larger (this doesn't happen in reeds, but after entering the staple), the air speed is slowed. If the space remains the same, the air speed is unchanged.
So what are some examples that can help improve response?
If the high register is pitched too high compared to the rest of the instrument, possible try a shape with more of a flare at the tip. (Like moving from Joshua +2 to Sansom +1)
If you need a shape with more lows or to help with the low register, moving to a shape that is parallel at the top, and has a dramatic taper at the throat may help (Possibly moving from Sansom +1 to Caleb)
If the low register is pitched too low, you could move to a shape that has longer taper, that is thinner at the throat. (Caleb to Joshua +2)
Of course the lines of a shape could be completely straight or have a slight curve to them. These will have different effects. It is important to know that if the shape gets smaller, the air stream will consequently move more quickly, like putting your finger over a hose. I feel it is not what size at what point in the shape that makes the tone, but how the air moves through the whole shape that really creates the effect.
Drew S.
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2012-05-13 18:00
Hi, Bobo -
The Brannen tips I have measured (I don't own any right now) have had the X or the N stamped with a very tiny stamp on the end of the stem. If this is where your N is, I'd call that definitive. If not, I can't be sure.
I measured a few of them back in the day and found the range of measurements to be typical of the manufacturing processes of 30 - 40 ,years ago. No two of anything were quite the same, though Brannen and Pfeiffer were more consistent than the RDG tips of the period.
I've never had any requests for a Brannen N tip, so it's not in my catalog...
Another peculiarity is that all the N tips I measured (4 or 5) were WIDER than any of the 18 X tips I measured. Maybe this is why a lot of Midwestern and East coast players call them 'Extra-narrow'. If so, what was the 'normal' that the Narrow and Extra-narrow refer to...?
I don't know if Brannen ever made anything beyond the X and N designs. Maybe someone on this forum can shed some light on this...
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: Bobo
Date: 2012-05-14 00:32
Bob,
The N on my shaper tip is stamped just above the cylindrical stem on the shoulder shaped flat. It is just a hair wider at the tip than the X, which makes sense if X was an extra narrow version of an already "narrow" N. Agree, narrow compared to what? These are narrow below the wrap, but not particularly narrow otherwise!
By "shoulder" above the stem, I mean something like this:
http://www.foxproducts.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=acc130
Very good point about tolerances in the old days not being very consistent! I'm sure they were all a bit different, certainly by the Mack standards you described. Anyway, I've always liked a wide tipped shaper tip...seems like a lot of oboists rely on really narrow shapes to support pitches in the upper register, but for me there is a real price in terms of vibration and sound volume with a truly narrow shape, but could be that's just me and my setup!
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Author: Oboehotty
Date: 2012-05-14 00:51
Drew,
Exactly what I was looking for-- Thank you for this wealth of information! Great ideas and great concepts!
Now, only if there was a comprehensive chart (not only the Westwind chart) that compared about 50 shapers!
Thanks again....great info!
Shawn
Professor of Oboe - Youngstown State University
Howland Local Schools - MS Dir. Of Bands/HS Asst. Dir (Marching, Symphonic)
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Author: JRC
Date: 2012-05-14 02:22
Let me see if I could contribute positively here but my comments are about relations to other characteristics in reeds, not just shape factor or the opening.
Oboe bore would have been simple conical shape if (1) the thickness of the oboe body was zero and (2) the input forcing function (reed) is a point source.
Unfortunately the thickness of the wood contributes to deviation from simple conical shape and replacing cut-off parts of the pointy conical portion with staple (tube) and the reed complicates the matter further.
So lets look at the tube and reed. Each oboe manufacturer offers their own tube and mandrel with specific conicity. That is a good starting point. It is their interpretation of completing their bore into a conical shape. Some use 46mm, 47mm, or even 48mm tube length. It seems to me that the player's preference in reed shape and length together with the tube would match the best with their oboe. Some find their reed does not work well in other instrument because different instrument may have different bore conicity.
The shape dimension influence two things; (1) volume of the air in the reed above the tube and (2) springiness of the reed that dictates how the reed would vibrate at different notes. The opening actually dictates the springiness of the reed much more than the volume of air being blown in. Larger opening reduces the controllablility of the pitch and sound more than the sound volume. It is a part of the resistance issue not the volume. A small opening with stiff (hard) cane gives you better controllability in general. Long scrape reeds works better with a bit more opening than that of the short scrape reeds because more scraping reduces the springiness of the reed. Stiffness (hardness) of cane and opening has direct relationship. Wide tip would allow easier production of low notes but stability of notes above 2nd octave g would suffer. The opposite is true in general.
The shape factor can be related to volume (as in size not loudness) issue; good match with the instrument would give consistent scale throughout the range. Bad match would give some inconsistency with pitch, stability of tone, ...etc. You could get the same effects by using different length tube.
The shape factor can be related to springiness of the reed issue that can be directly related to the opening of the reed, hardness of the cane, and type of scrape you use. It also directly affects easier/harder production of low and high notes but by overdoing it, it would start causing stability of pitch and tone problem. In another words, it is one of the knobs you could try out while you are searching for that "perfect reed" for your particular oboe.
So... just about every aspect of reed issues are inter-related. Shape is one of the knobs. I do not believe one should look at any one of these all by itself. This is a very hard subject to discuss in my opinion. Everyone have different habit of making and adjusting reeds and it is very easy to talk pass each other, and agreeing and disagreeing for no real common reference.
Post Edited (2012-05-14 02:27)
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2012-05-14 05:48
OK, let's look at the problem from an entirely different perspective:
Leave the brass aside (please!).
With string instruments, the vibrating string provides a set of overtones - the classic description of the overtone series - where the string vibrates as one loop, jump-rope style, 2 loops, 3 loops and so on, producing a full set of overtones. The body of the instrument selects from among the available frequencies those that resonate, giving the difference in sound between, for instance, violin and guitar. This is true no matter what note is being played, because the string always vibrates in the same manner.
A reed instrument is an entirely different animal. The shape of the bore (and all the other myriad acoustical attributes) asks the reed to produce a set of overtones to fill the 'slots' available in the stack that will complete the set that a given note asks for. (I'm expressing this poorly, but hang in here...)
The thing is, each fingering makes a 'different' instrument - the part of the bore being used, the total length (therefore the pitch) - each note asks the reed to produce a different set of overtones consistent with the pitch being played, and yet these overtones need to be in the same proportion to each other for each pitch or the timbre will be different (forked F and regular F, for instance, though this is a function of the bore, not the reed).
What this means is the ideal reed should be a white noise generator, capable of producing any pitch or combination of pitches at any time.
When the tip predominates or the back is over-cut, the result is that the reed can't produce frequencies in one end or the other of the necessary range. Assuming you can achieve THAT balance, the problem becomes one of finding a shape that compliments all the other parts of your setup to produce the widest range of available frequencies, so that no matter what the instrument is asking for, the reed can produce.
And the shape is only one of the variables necessary here...
The only thing to do is try - with the help of someone who knows more than you do, at first - different shapes, different scrapes, different cane, until you've filled up that legendary laundry basked with your discards.
Learning musical performance is an apprenticeship, and for most of us that wasn't, or will not be, a short process.
It's late: good night and Happy Mother's Day...
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-05-18 15:42
Let's all not forget the priceless art of hand shaping. And I mean priceless, cause it doesn't cost anything to do (except maybe a few pieces of cane). I'd suggest starting on the widest shape you own, then gradually hand shape aspects of your reed, and record your results on paper. I'm sure after even a few reeds you will start to understand more of the effects of shaping on your reeds. Measure with your trusty ruler, mm side. shape with your straight razor. To compare with charts on westwind and others, use the following areas:
Throat = 5mm from the wrap/end of staple
Belly = 12 mm from the wrap/end of staple
Tip = 23 mm from the wrap/end of staple
You can mark these areas on the side or top of the reed with a pen (although, the marks on the side will come off as you scrape).
When you find a measurement you like, DO NOT STOP. Be prepared to throw this reed out at the end of the session, it is a learning reed, not a performance reed. Continue scraping until the reed starts turning for the worse. Then you the full potential of that area of scraping.
When you find your desired shape, shop around for a shape similar to what you like. If you can't find one, I think David Weber and others make shaper tips if you send them your reed.
Drew S.
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-05-18 18:37
It just so happens that I am at the stage where I needed to do this exact thing. Lucky me. So Here's what I did today, and it seems to be working for me:
I started with a finished reed, Joshua +2 shape. Something not too old that was comfortable playing on (actually I started with a lot more than one, but just to explain, lets just say one)
I started at the Throat (and this is a good place to start. Don't start at the tip) I measured 5mm from the thread, and started taking away cane, until the notes below G on the bottom of the staff responded quickly. The trade off is it dulls the sound, and lucky for me, my sound down low was a bit raucous anyhow. Actually, it's good to take in the Throat a bunch, cause those low notes can be hard to control.
Then I moved to the Belly (12 mm from the wrap). I took in the necessary cane so that D in the staff and the surrounding tones responded evenly. Again, this will dull tone, so do it just enough so that the notes respond evenly all the way to the bottom of the instrument.
Finally, I moved to the Tip (20 mm for me, but 23mm for most. The reason for the 20 mm for me is because I shape the tip inward for a few mm at the tip, and 20 mm is the fattest point in my reed). This area will affect response in the altissimo register. Same as above response/tone relationship.
At this point you should have a pretty nicely shaped and playing reed. And it should respond how you like it in all registers. My reeds have a gradual taper, I have not tried a curve.
Funny thing, my reed dimensions seem to be: Throat= 5mm, Belly = 5.8mm, and Tip= 6.5 mm. This is confusing, as this would be the smallest shape in any shaper list. I think what's happened is the cane is drawn in on a curve around the staple, so when I take the cane off of the staple, I'll have to measure again, with it flat on the table. Then I can get a clear picture of what shape is right for me.
Good luck
Drew S.
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2012-05-18 21:46
Hi, Drew -
I was going to comment on this point but you beat me to it. Unwrapping the cane from the tube and carefully flattening it back to its original inside diameter is a good start, but actually, the radius ground onto the shaper tip is much larger than the inside radius of the cane you are shaping; if you tried to match that 5 to 5.25 radius on the tip you would part the ears right off. So we start by flattening the cane to shape it (which means the cane will be narrower, especially at the tip, when it springs back to its original diameter) and then we wrap it around a narrow tube (which means the cane will be narrower, especially at the throat).
This means a lot of futzing around to find out what reality is, but I applaud this inquiry. I've never done anything like it and I'm really curious to see where it goes. Keep us up to date, please!
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-05-19 04:40
I guess another way to get close to a measurement is from subtractive reasoning. So if you start with say a Joshua +2 shape, you know you started with a shape that has:
Throat = 5.92
Belly = 6.6
Tip = 6.93
Now if you measure a tied on reed, you'll get a reading maybe of 5.2 in the throat. If you shave off .2 from the sides, then you got 5.0 tied on in the throat. You can probably assume you've taken .2 from the untied shape (although maybe a little more, but I'm assuming that's negligable). So you'll probably do just well with a Throat of 5.7 or 5.72 (5.92 - .2), somewhere around there.
I'll see when I can get more into the subject, got a long day of Les Miserables tomorrow.
Drew S.
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-05-20 16:03
It does appear that when you tie of a reed you lose and average of .2 mm from the curve of the reed around the staple. Also, placing the ruler behind the reed, not in front, may lend to better results. Ultimately, the readings will just be "ballparks". Fine adjustments can really only be done by trial and error.
Drew S.
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Author: johnt
Date: 2012-05-20 18:34
You can get measurements to within a gnat's derriere if you invest in a millimeter bent rule (150 mm) from Incra. I use mine daily to establish "route 66" or the horizontal line measured up from cork base (round end) to 66 mm on the reed face, the spot which defines the thickest part of the heart & from where I begin the scrape & bottom limit (straight line) of the "half moon") Two pencil marks…one on each side (edge) of the reed with this jig make for consistency in spades. To cut the tip at 70 mm I use the same rule to make marks on each side (flat) of the reed faces & then Udo Heng's reed guillotine set at 70 mm to ensure more consistency. The reed guillotine is a luxury but it guarantees straight across cuts (something I'm terribly bad at with a single edge razor blade & billot) With demon age moving in (74 in June) my technique with the single edge is diminishing. I can still cut off hairline slivers from the reed tip still but it sure helps to start off with a straight cut using Udo's nifty machine. By contrast, my shaping technique with the single edge razor blade has improved. Go figure. The Incra rule sells for less that $20 USD on line. The incremental tools website has the best price/shipping:
http://www.incrementaltools.com/INCRA_Precision_Bend_Rules_Metric_150mm_p/bnd150m.htm
Best,
john
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2012-05-20 19:20
I use a reed guillotine too ... quite expensive however a joy to use.
Mark
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Author: Carole417
Date: 2012-08-06 01:51
Hi Shawn and Everyone,
Just today I was on the Westwind website, viewing the shaper tip comparison chart that you mentioned. I also looked at the similar chart that Ann Hodge has on her site. All of the tip measurements matched up on both sites except for the Adam tips. Every one was different! So I went to the Adam website, where only the tip measurement is listed, but the tip measurements all matched up with Ann Hodge's chart. Is Westwind off on all the Adam tips? Or am I crazy or doing something wrong!
Has anyone else found this discrepancy? Today it really impeded my search for a new shaper tip. I'm trying to find a tip that is narrow in the throat and flares more at the tip than my Pfeiffer/ Mack.
In case anyone is interested, here are the three sites I mentioned:
http://www.shapertips.com/
http://www.westwinddoublereed.com/compareoboeshapertips-27.html
http://www.hodgeproductsinc.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=51_107_234
I do have one thing to contribute to the discussion about 'what happens if.." My students sometimes bring in processed cane - from various dealers - that flares out at the tip but is very narrow at the throat. Unfortunately, for one reason or another, I've never been able to find out what tip the cane is shaped on. But I have had surprisingly good success making reeds from this 'student' cane. In discussing this with a colleague, we theorized that this 'V' shaped tip - as opposed to a more parallel tip - might be a key to the low-note-response versus high- note- stability issue. Hence my search today brought me to your discussion!
The only tips I found with this type of flare were the Pisoni's (on Ann Hodge's site). The Pisoni #1 is just all-over narrower than Pfeiffer/ Mack, ending up with the same tip measurement of 7mm. Pisoni #2 is exactly the same in the belly and throat as Pfeiffer/ Mack, then suddenly opens up to 7.3mm. Pisoni #3 just seems too wide. So I don't think any of these are it.
I know that this flare at the tip is more characteristic of European tips, so I checked out Rigotti also. All of the Rigotti tips are wider in the throat and belly - definitely NOT what I'm looking for.
I think someone mentioned the sides of the reeds 'not holding together' very well on wide-bellied shapes. I have found this to be quite true. Even the Brannen X, that we all grew up using, doesn't hold together as well as the Pfeiffer Mack. I think the X means extra narrow in the throat, but definitely not in the belly.
Does anyone have any ideas about what this mystery tip this might be? I would really like to test our 'theory' about the 'V' shape, but it's an expensive experiment if you don't know what you're looking for!
Thanks for reading!
Carole
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-08-06 04:31
Hello Carole,
I think you're pretty much right on all counts and assumptions. The measurement discrepancy is just a rounding issue, so both measurements are correct, but the Hodge measurements are more exact.
Pisoni does seem to be the most V shaped tip available, not that I've seen every time imaginable, but of the ones I have, that seems to be the case. The Adam Samson tips are flared as well, probably not as much as the Pisoni.
I'll preface the next statement by saying I'm a woodwind doubler, and have not studied oboe with an oboist, but I am coming to be a respectable oboist, and have studied reed making intensely. Now that the disclaimer is out, in order to learn more about shapes, and not buy 10 different shaper tips, I shape my own cane with sandpaper (320 girt to be exact, 220 if I'm going a long distance). You could essentially start with your Brannen X (since it's the widest shape), and sand down from there, into the V shape. I have found that the measurements don't need to be exact, and you will come to understand how the shape effects the response of the reed. I start with Hodge shaped cane, Joshua +2, and from there I have made reeds comparable to the V flare you talk about, and reeds comparable to Joshua regular, all with sandpaper. I have also experimented with other shapes with good results. I guess what I'm saying is, if you ballpark a few reeds, then you will come to know in and around the basic shape suited to your playing style. Then you can make a conscious choice as to which shaper tip best fits you.
Good Luck,
Drew S.
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2012-08-06 06:36
Bob Hubbard is a frequent contributor to this site, so I am sure he will weigh in with his opinions! He states on his website that he only publishes measurements to 0.1 mm accuracy, but his actual measurements are accurate to 1/1000 mm.
Regarding the "flare" or V shape. The more flare a shape has, the better it seals. The better it seals, the better response you get from the reed.
It really is that simple.
The reedmakers who make dozens of reeds every week know how to make any shape seal well - they can benefit from the additional tonal complexities obtained with a wider throat, a rounder belly, more parallel sides etc. But I still maintain that the single-most-important factor when tying on a reed [after the gouge and the quality of the cane] is the way the reed seals to the tip.
J.
Post Edited (2012-08-06 06:40)
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2012-08-06 12:51
J.,
After many years of reed making I totally agree .... reed stability and more comes with the perfect tie and seal. Such a reed has good core sound and appropriate resistance without stuffiness.
As for the flare on the top of the reed as whether it may help the seal or not I really do not know since I have not pursued that line of inquiry.
I will say though ... I prefer a reed that is more parallel along the sides. I use an emery board to get there.
Mark
PS: Your razor blade technique on the shaper tip will either enhance your chances of a good piece of shaped cane or not. Any minor differences on each side will cause a less than perfect seal.
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Author: Carole417
Date: 2012-08-06 13:17
Hi J,
Maybe I should clarify sealing vs. grabbing the placque. What I am talking about is the sides holding together. If a reed grips the placque like a vise, unless a major error occurs, it's almost a given that I will be able to take that reed to work. (Has to be great) That's what I think we're all striving for - that grab and the perfectly shaped opening that goes along with it. I haven't been able to achieve those results with a wider shape. And I would like to hope that the V shape I'm looking for will really grab!
Also the winding length is very integral to the grab of the sides. Someone on the board pointed out: don't use the recommended measurements for winding. Every piece of cane winds on at a different length if you wind it ' just to close.' Winding it on shorter can mess up the overlap as well as the grab. Very good point!
Carole
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2012-08-06 14:18
When you wrap the cane around the staple, each edge of the cane bends from "almost horizontal" to "vertical" when looking along the axis of the reed. This twist gradually unwinds to the tip, and it is the spring that pushes the blades together.
The flared shape lets the spring unwind gradually to the tip and so the blades remain tightly together. Parallel sides have little force holding them together.
As a thought-experiment, imagine that the curve of the shape continued _beyond_ parallel, and actually narrowed from the belly to the tip. Would the blades hold tightly together then? I suspect they would not even touch beyond the belly.
I think this is why flared shapes seal better, but (as I said above) the true reed-magicians seem able to make anything seal well.
J.
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Author: Carole417
Date: 2012-08-06 17:09
What a great analysis, J! I'm sending this to my friend who loves 'thought experiments.' This makes so much sense. I had never thought about the 'why' of it, just that I had experienced it and would like to duplicate it. Thank you - thus makes me all the more determined to find that shaper tip.
Thanks again!
Carole
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2012-08-08 11:38
Hi, Carole -
What a great thread! I'm loving it. A bit of background for you on the origins of Westwind: I learned machining in order to make better repair tools for what then was my instrument repair business and had the opportunity to join two of my musical colleagues who worked in a die shop. Tolerances there were very tight and we needed to keep critical dimensions accurate to .0001 inch. After some eight years of this, the shop was closed by the bad economy of the 90's and I decided to use my machining chops to fill what I saw as two serious needs: becoming a source for the discontinued Brannen X and Pfeiffer/Mack tips and a source of accurately reproduced tips, which did not exist then except for the Adam line.
I had access to the metrology department at the Stanford Linear Accelerator where the measuring equipment is the best in the world and measured a large number of Xs, Pfeiffer/Macks and other tips and set up the beginnings of the 'modern' Westwind. Bob Gilbert asked me to make the rdg/Mack tips and several people asked me for custom or proprietary tips and the business was established.
All of the measurements on my chart are the result of my actual measurement; I have not published numbers from any other source, so the discrepancy between my Adam numbers and Ann Hodge's numbers could have several possibilities. As far as I know, Ann has used my numbers for my tips on her chart. I expect she has used Adam's numbers for their tips. If that is the case, then it's possible, but highly unlikely, that their numbers don't match their product. Much more likely is that, since I measured the same points I use (5mm, 12mm, 23mm) from my arbitrarily chosen wrap point at 5.1mm width, I was measuring different points than was Adam on their chart. This would account for the differences in our charts but leave intact the comparisons on my chart between Westwind and Adam tips at the same comparable points from the wrap point.
I had an amusing experience at the IDRS conference in Evanston some 20 years ago. An Italian tip maker who shall remain unnamed came over to my booth with my chart in his hand, outraged that I published numbers different from his. I'm willing to be mistaken, so I grabbed my micrometer and headed for his booth. There we found that his numbers did not match his product and my numbers did. I left him sputtering but took his numbers off of my chart...
Drew, I applaud your approach. You will probably end up with the widest body of knowledge of all of us. Keep it up and write a book!
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2012-08-08 16:48
Here's an interesting paper that touches peripherally on this thread:
http://physicsoboereed.blogspot.co.uk/
I don't know whether this does more than increase the confusion, but it's at least an attempt to put numbers to the problem...
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-08-08 16:54
Thank you Robert. May I say that as a Cancer I am partial to compliments.
While this thread has take a few twists and turns, the latter half of it seems to be dedicated to shape in terms of "low-note response vs high-note stability". This has been something that I've been working on, especially low-note response in all dynamics. In my study, I wonder, could reed response be directly related to reed mass?
When I make reeds, they usually start off responding well in the middle range, the upper range sounds good, but plays sharp, and the low register requires more air and tends to be a bit brash. At this point I sandpaper the throat and underside of the belly, and this seems to make the low register more controllable. For a long time, I just considered this as a reflection of internal diameter, but not I am not so sure. Personally, I feel that maybe with less cane to move with your air, the easier it should respond. Also, the throat might need to have less cane present than the heart and throat, because the reed vibrating to create the tone of the low notes, would have to move the same amount of cane used to create the high and mid-range notes, as well as the additional cane lower down the reed used for low note production. Just some food for thought.
Drew S.
P.S.- I re-recorded an etude if anyone is interested or bored
http://youtu.be/0b742j5JT9s
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2012-08-09 21:47
We've been vacationing in Spain for a week. 20 hr flight home tomorrow. I'll rejoin the thread after I've slept!
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2012-08-15 11:07
Hello Drew,
Your experiments and compiled observations on the different curve descriptions are a real treasure!
You mention low-note response versus high-notes being pitched too sharp. In the instruments I am used to playing on (Lorées of the 1980s'-90's) the problem was a bit different: notes of the 1st octave keys are just unpredictable and 2nd octave keys are usually flat (they can go overly sharp when having previously compensated for a 1st octave note or overly anticipating their flatness).
In the instruments I have tried at last winter's exhibition (Lorées from the 1960's and much older as well as from the 2000's and newer, Howarths and other various used oboes), the problems of 1980/90's oboes are practically gone - leaving only comparatively minor instabilities in other (fewer) notes.
Do you have any recommendations of shape descriptions for instruments with flat upper registers?
Stability for the instruments I described is usually a matter of short cane (e.g. under 69.5mm reed on a 47mm staple) and a tight, high-pitch crow. But I prefer the sound produced by longer cane with a deeper pitch crow.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-08-15 13:58
Dear Robin,
Thank you for your praise on the subject.
I wish I had experience making reed on more than a Renard 333 and my current Loree C Series. This would definitely make me more knowledgeable when it comes to assisting others.
One thing I've noticed that greatly effects intonation is air speed. The faster the air moves through the reed/instrument, the sharper it is. So I would recommend finding a way to make the air speed for your high notes faster, while not effecting the speed of air when playing notes in the low register.
A few suggestions that could potentially work:
Switching to a staple with a larger inside diameter. Once you make this switch, you'll probably notice a whole new dynamic of intonation problems, but in theory this should allow more air into the instrument, bringing up the pitch. I use Chudnow CA staples, which are larger than any other staple I've tried. The size I feel keeps my pitch up, and then I adjust the reed down from there. I wind up with reeds 70.5mm. 70mm is usually sharp.
This next bit is pure hypothesis: What you may try to do is adjust reeds solely for pitch in the upper register. Don't even worry about the low or mid registers at this point. When the reed plays comfortably in tune in the high register, you can use your sandpaper on the throat and belly, taking in small amounts, and observing the changes. My theory here is that the tip of the reed is the predominant for driving the upper register (I don't know if this is true or not, so take with salt), and the belly and throat drive the low register. The thinner the shape, the less air can move through that particular part of the reed, and there is a good chance this will bring down the pitch of the thinned area. If your new reeds are consistent with what you said above, the reed you first made should start in tune in the high register and sharp in the low register. If you bring down the intonation of low register from this shape, you may find a shape that is easy to play.
I'm interested to hear your results.
Drew S.
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2012-08-16 14:14
Hello Drew:
I don't know Fox at all except for having tried one English horn once. That gave me the impression of dependability. Your choice of the c-series Lorée was perfect: tuning on those old instruments was fantastc!
Everything you mentioned, I have done some time ago and I agree with your observations. That's probably why I like Chiarugi 3 & 5 (almost certainly bigger than Chudnow) and the Kunibert Michel 7.25 shaper (more angular RDG -2). You also posed some really good challenges for investigation... last year would have been great for experiments, this year I have to work more on software development... I'll just say that for me (doing Euro-scrape) tip vs. heart balance is more about response, dynamics and stability than segments of range.
Bigger bore staple has the added benefit for me of relieving dizzy-spells. I suppose that's where the proper choice of an instrument comes into play: mine has been with me for 27 years, huge sentimental value, but maybe another one would need less compensation effort. When the weather and reeds are great, this instrument is fantastic... maybe it just belongs in the USA or the prairies!
Cheers!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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The Clarinet Pages
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