 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-04-22 23:01
Hello all,
As some of you might be aware, I am a woodwind doubler. I will be purchasing my first oboe next month, and maybe you all might want to comment on the instruments I'm interested in trying with your feeling on any or all of them.
The Big List:
1. Loree B series
2. Loree C series (Highly recommended by Peter Hurd)
3. Yamaha 841L (Recommended by John Symer, I think he may have helped design the instrument)
4. Howarth S5
5. Howarth XL (Although would be very expensive)
6. Loree "ak" (Not sure about this one, I may not even try it)
Notes about myself:
1. I am American
2. I make my own reeds (although they are unconventional. I will show pics and sound clips at a later date)
3. Intonation and Tone are highly important. If the tone is great, and I have to adjust a bit, that is fine, but the intonation can't read like a seismograph.
Drew S.
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2012-04-22 23:56
I have recently tried most of the oboes you listed.
http://robindeshautbois.blogspot.ca/2012/01/comparing-many-oboes.html
If the AK Loree is post year 2000, then you'll be fine. I prefer the Howarth because it is more freely blowing. But if you play with others and require the blended American sound, you'll probably be better off with the B or C series Lorées. Apparently, Lorée is performing studies and experiments to bring back the B series as a new model.
I thought the XL was simply amazing, but a new AK is not far behind. Lorées all frame the sound in a way that you either like or don't.
You need to try with your reeds and decide which you like best: sorry, there's no way around that without the potential of missed opportunity.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: oboeandy
Date: 2012-04-23 01:50
What's this news about Loree bringing back the B series as a new model? I'd be curious to hear more about that.
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Author: oboi
Date: 2012-04-23 05:12
I would say the XL has a sweeter sound than my Marigaux 2001. Definitely brighter and pure. The upper octave is phenomenal. Key arrangement was quite comfortable. It's quite a heavy horn and definitely feels bulky. Most of the pros in my area play on XLs. Personally, I like more of a dark sound but I do wish mine had some of the sweetness and the stability in the upper octaves. I prefer the lower octave on my horn and I've had people comment about how I can belt out the lowest notes. With the Howarths, you can ask them to put in a lining in the upper joint if cracking may be a concern.
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Author: Jeltsin
Date: 2012-04-23 06:40
If you look at Yamaha, choose an 841 and not an 811.
There are four different bore design 811, 821, 831 and 841, and the 811 and 841 are supposed to be ” American design”. I have heard that 841 is good, but I have never heard anything nice about 811.
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2012-04-23 17:01
I had a Loree BB oboe and then a BF oboe. The BB was rather poor, being very stuffy on the middle register F-sharp, G, and G-sharp and also the midddle register C was sharp and had to be lowered. On the other hand the BF was very good with neither of the BB problems. The only thing I had to do was reduce the low B-flat resonance hole, as it made the pitch too sharp. Otherwise, the intonation was very even. As it was noticeably heavier than the BB, it must have been a "thick-wall" model. There was/is a Loree series called "Royal" which was much more expensive, but I never played on one. Could that be the same as the "XL" series mentioned? As Robin Tropper stated, you really have to make a reed or two for the specific intrument you're considering, to be sure if its right for you. Regards.
R. Still former student
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Author: JRC
Date: 2012-04-23 18:44
Yamaha 841L is the best for your money and specifically designed for American style (Phili gangs) of playing. But some old Godet may give you even more "dark" sound that Americans love so much, and possibly even cheaper. Or get a French Horn. That would give you darker and silkier sound than any of those you listed. You do not even need to fuss with reeds any longer.
Seriously, you need to play on it to tell it for sure, not just a few minutes, but as long as you get the feels for it. Not all oboes are made to be equal. Your American style is different from any other. Free advise from forums like this usually worth what you pay for.
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Author: CocoboloKid
Date: 2012-04-23 19:14
You didn't mention them, but you would do very well to also consider Bulgheroni, Patricola and Fossati oboes. I have owned and played all three of them professionally, and they are simply marvelous instruments. (And, if you are considering an XL, which is also a stunning instrument, then any of those three will CERTAINLY be in your budget).
The Bulgheroni Opera and Fossati Soliste are two of the finest oboes being made right now, and will run you CONSIDERABLY less than an equivalent Loree or Howarth.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-04-23 19:36
Do Marigaux still exist? Just that no-one's even mentioned giving them a try on here yet.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-04-23 20:00
Thanks everyone for their input! Keep it coming!
Robin, great link!
Jelt and JRC, thanks for the Yamaha input.
Oboi and BF51, thanks for your input as well.
Cocobolo Kid, I thought about Bulgheroni, and will look into the opera once more. I have heard good things about them. I'm not sure how many people are playing them currently. I think I have heard conflicitng ideas about Fossati and Patricola.
Chris, I've purposely left Marigaux out of my list because they tend to explode under pressure, and that simply is not acceptable, even if they have a wonderful sound. I'll more than likely be playing my oboe along with sax, clarinet, and other instruments, so I will be playing it cold. Marigaux seems to have a terrible track record, and I cannot take that chance. Even lined instruments may be a problem, and I will have to be extra careful with the instrument.
Drew S.
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Author: CocoboloKid
Date: 2012-04-23 20:11
I am of the opinion that generally, and particularly as a doubler, "how many people are playing them currently" should be the absolute last factor in your choice.
I have never played a Loree (or a Buffet clarinet for that matter), and it certainly has not affected the amount of work that I get.
Try everything you can, and pick what is best for you. Listening to other people's opinions of Brand X vs. Brand Z is no substitute for actually getting the instrument in your hands and working with it.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-04-23 20:15
They explode? Are they made of nitroglycerin or semtex or something?
I've got two Marigaux instruments (one from 1998 and one from 1979) and neither of them have exploded on me!
All wooden oboes (and other woodwind instruments made of wood) are liable to cracking - it's the nature of the material. I've seen cracked Yamahas (had one myself), Lorees, Rigoutats, Buffets, Howarths, Selmers, etc. so it's not an isolated phenomenon specifically targeting Marigaux instruments.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-04-23 20:29
CocoboloKid,
It's true that what works for one person may not work for another, and vice versa. I'm just trying to get trends, so I'm not spending $2,000 on shipping. I have to limit myself in some way, I guess one of the ways is to see what the oboe players we aspire to sound like prefer.
Chris,
I'm glad you've had success with your Marigaux/Marigauxs/Marigauxes. Unfortunately, and this is pretty common knowledge in the oboe community, newer Marigaux oboe models tend to crack more dramatically than other brands. It is true that I am not trying a newer Loree for this same reason, as the newer instruments seem to be weaker than their older counterparts. While this may not be true for every single late model Marigaux or Loree, it is the trend. Hate the statistic, not the statistician.
Drew S.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-04-23 20:45
Where are these statistics published?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2012-04-23 21:46
For a person who hasn't owned an oboe, you make a lot of critical comments about the various makes. This may be internet lore, but it may not really be representative of reality. For a person who is mostly planning to play in shows and who is concerned about cracking, a plastic Fox may well be a good starting place, at a reasonable price point. Good Luck!!
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-04-23 21:57
Thanks for your input. I am not interested in Marigaux, or Fossati, Patricola or Fox for that matter. These instruments are not who I am as a performer.
In my defense, might it be to slightly over the top calling my one opinion about Marigaux "a lot of critical comments about a lot of makers." I did not comment for or against Fossati or Patricola.
I appreciate more thoughts about the list of instruments in the first post.
Thank you
Drew S.
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2012-04-23 22:45
In my now, almost ancient (3/17/12) thread, “The American School of Oboe Playing…” there was a good comparison between Marigaux and Loree oboes, submitted by “Cooper”. Also, I’ve noticed that Marigaux is advertising on the Oboe BB every so often, and I would think that, that is the right thing to do, if you want to sell more oboes to the U.S.
Regarding the Loree “AK” oboes, as I understand it, there have been two, Loree “AK” series of oboes. The first, very highly regarded series, was produced in the 1950’s (?) and my teacher played on one of the very best of those for a period of 5-10 years. Now, a new AK series has appeared in the last 10 years (?) and was/is based on the original AK bore with a few improvements. Hopefully, someone knows a whole lot more about that and can comment here. When I was in high school, I played on a Cabart, then a Rigoutat, and then my own, first Loree. The Rigoutat wasn’t bad, but the middle E was a little high and the tone didn’t seem to be as deep as the Loree. I have been told though, that the new Rigoutat’s are very good. Regards.
R. Still former student
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2012-04-24 00:31
To JRC,
I would like to comment on the 4 sentences in the second paragraph of your statement. Regarding sentence #1 I think you’re absolutely correct, so no argument here! About #2, I think we already knew that, but it’s a good “reality check”. On the third one, if you mean that the “American School” really is different from any of the others, then, that is as it should be, imho. Who beat the Germans to building the first Atomic bomb, so it wasn’t used on us?! Who got to the Moon first? So, why should we have to be content with copying someone else’s school? In saying that, I realize that the actual origin of the American school was due to Stokowski’s demands on Tabuteau which was highly unusual, but that’s the way it was. About the fourth one I have learned so much from this forum, I can hardly begin to thank it enough. Contributing to it seems a very small price to pay, considering the terrific returns. Almost all the comments on this thread, appear to me to have been to try to really help the original poster. Regards.
R. Still former student
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2012-04-24 06:13
@Drew,
If you can find one I would recommend a plastic Loree C series, or at least a C series with a plastic top-joint. The sound is indistinguishable from the regular C-series instruments and they are made to the same high standards. In blind tests, NOBODY can tell the difference between a pro wooden instrument and an identical model in plastic.
Try it yourself - get two instruments and have a good oboist play the same passage on each instrument. Put 50 people in the room and have them each say which one they prefer.
Note that I'm not talking about the buffet greenline here; that is a composite instrument that may have some weakness around the middle tenon joint.
The advantage of a plastic instrument for a doubler is that you don't have to worry about cracking at all, whether it be due to temperature or humidity (a perennial hot-topic on this board). Your plastic instrument is always ready to play at a moments notice, you don't have to warm it in your hands (or armpit) before playing, you can dump it wet onto the oboe stand and move on to your 2nd instrument without worrying about swabbing it and smothering it in a warmer (though I would always swab if you have time).
I think these factors outweigh most of the other issues raised here.
J.
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-04-24 12:01
J.
I'm very interested in an older plastic loree. As I understand it, they didn't make many of them, and I haven't seen one for sale. Peter Hurd had a Cor plastic, possibly E or F series, I forget which, but I don't think it's up anymore, and anyway, I still need an oboe. I've simply given up hope on finding an old plastic loree, and am moving on to that which is available now. Reputably beautiful instruments.
Drew S.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-04-24 12:49
I'm not a full time oboe player - my main instrument is sax and I studied clarinet and play some flute, piccolo and bassoon, so I do juggle the lot at some point or other, usually in Big Band playing (mainly bari which is also means doubling on alto, Bb clarinet and flute/piccolo) or in pit work where the demands of doubling and having all the various instruments (and reeds) fully playable at short notice are paramount.
I haven't got the most ideal oboe for the purpose as it's a kingwood one which is less stable than grenadilla, but I still played it in when I first got it (which was in Winter, even though I stress that's the worst time to buy any new instrument) and it hasn't cracked on me yet - that was back in 1999. If there's a situation where I'm putting it at risk, then I use my plastic back-up oboe, but I do prefer to play my No.1 oboe whenever I can. I have played it in less than favourable conditions, but took the measures to make sure no harm came to it - such as keeping the top joint warm whilst not playing and mopping out regularly so there's no excessive condensation build-up. That has kept it going and I rarely have trouble with the 8ve vents getting blocked.
Now is the best time to buy any wooden oboe of any make as the weater is getting better and humidity levels are on the rise. I bought my Marigaux cor brand new in July 1998 and I played that far more than oboe at the time and it didn't explode under pressure - but again I played it in gently over the first few weeks of having it and haven't had any problems. Similarly with my Marigaux d'amore - although it doesn't see nearly as much playing as my oboe or cor, it hadn't been played much in its time (since 1979) and again I play it when I can for a limited time to make sure it doesn't crack. It hasn't so far and I doubt it ever will.
The point I'm making is don't play any wooden instrument too much too early otherwise you increase the risk of them cracking. This applies to all makes and no one make is at anymore risk than another - they're all at risk and it's up to the player to realise this and take appropriate measures to prevent them cracking.
If you know you're going to hit the ground running with a brand new instrument, either make sure you get one that's capable of the demands you place on it - so either look into getting either a completely plastic instrument, one with a plastic top joint or one with a lined bore, or a used one that's been played and maintained regularly.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: TrueFinlandishness
Date: 2012-04-25 12:52
I have always played a Howarth but then I am not an American (could anyone tell me why Howarth's haven't gone down that well in America?). They are the go-to oboe people in Europe for oboes that are reliably in tune and will last a lifetime. I personally love the XL- I visited the Hoawrth factory recently and to see the care they take over their production is amazing. S5s are nice but the XL has a better tone. My concern with Lorees would be the cracking problem but if tone is very important then this is probably of little consequence as it can easily be mended.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-04-25 16:08
Simple answer being any high end make of oboe other than Loree doesn't stand too much of a chance in the US popularity stakes - similarly with any make of clarinet other than Buffet.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-04-25 16:41
Yea, Loree is popular. I really like Howarth reputation more, but I don't think I can afford an XL. I'll try an S5 and XL, so I'm looking forward to feeling the difference. I've added MCW to the list. I had it before, but didn't want to spend the shipping from Mark. Turns out I found another one, so I'll be trying that as well. Luckily for me I won't need to blend with other oboists, as I'm a pit musician, so it opens up my options. I'm afraid of the Loree pitch constant, or lack there of, as heard by reputation. I'm interested in feeling the difference in the Yamaha vs the other makers that just make oboes.
Drew S.
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Author: kimber
Date: 2012-04-25 17:27
I have a Howarth S5 with plastic top joint as well as a Loree. The Howarth was my second acquisition and I am thrilled with it, both in sound, tuning and utility. It also seem to need less adjusting over time. I do note that reeds made for one do not sound as good on the other.
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2012-04-25 21:24
Regarding your last sentence, "Truer words were never spoken!" Regards.
R. Still former student
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Author: Oboehotty
Date: 2012-05-06 03:00
I have taught many college oboists over the years. Some of the best instruments I have encountered for durability and sound (warm dark sound) are the Yamaha 841, Mariqaux 2001 model, Fox's newest horn the 800 series, and of course Loree AK and Royale Models.
I have had students purchase the Fossati's and I was a fan myself for several years. Two students purchased Soliste models and both were horrible. Both got massive cracks within 3 months of buying and never played the same.
Marigaux -- I am pretty active in the oboe community and I have not heard of such a thing as Mariqaux 2001 horns "exploding" or anything about cracks any more then the "other" brand (Loree).
I have heard decent things about the Patricola and the Bulgheroni horns -- though I would be willing to bet that many people who are strict Loree players would disagree with all of this and would not play on anything but a Loree.
I am also a huge fan of the Laubin and Covey Instruments as well as the Hinikers I have played.
It all depends on what kind of sound you want and how much you want to listen to what "everyone else" tells you. Play many horns and record yourself and buy what YOU like and what YOU sound great on. In fact, go one step further and have someone cover up any name on the instrument so you don't know what you are playing so you are not slighted by the brand name. You might be pleasantly surprised by what you ultimately choose. Good luck!
Professor of Oboe - Youngstown State University
Howland Local Schools - MS Dir. Of Bands/HS Asst. Dir (Marching, Symphonic)
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-05-06 13:40
I've been getting very annoyed at myself for not being able to find the citation for my feelings on Marigaux. I realize I had my problem because the post was edited for some reason. Here it is, this bboard link was one of the reasons for my hesitation toward the company:
http://test.woodwind.org/oboe/BBoard/read.html?f=10&i=21129&t=21069
There is a post deleted about 3 lines down, and before it contained two pictures of a newish Marigaux oboe in pretty brutal shape. The following posts also talk about other people's problems with the company. I'm not saying they're a bad company, but if they are even considered more fragile than other oboe companys, I cannot invest that much money in them, considering I will play the instrument cold frequently.
I've also read this quote: "The late model wooden Marigaux instruments tend to crack dramatically. Beware."
Whether these instances are single occurrences or common problems, I'm not willing to find out first hand. Marigaux is expensive anyhow.
Drew S.
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Author: oboesax
Date: 2012-05-06 16:07
Drew-we've communicated before. I'm no expert, but my daughter is a serious oboe student, will get a BM in oboe performance, but also plays sax equally well and works in pit orchestras and other music gigs.
I bought her a new professional Loree (AK) in 2010. It's a wonderful instrument, and has made all the difference for her in concerto competitions, performances, and orchestral performances. It cracked once (very small crack), ironically in summer when she played at Tanglewood, and it was hot there. But they play a lot there, and the instrument was only 6 months old. Anyway, it plays the same as before, and she's had no more cracks.
In pit orchestras (she always plays the oboe book) she will will sometimes bring her intermediate Fossati instead. If she had a good plastic oboe she would probably use that. Perhaps when she's older, a full profesional musician, and if she's still doing pit work, she might invest in a professional plastic model.
So, it might depend on where you think you will be performing on this new oboe. I do think that orchestral oboe playing is different that pit orchestra oboe playing.
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Author: oboemoboe
Date: 2012-05-06 17:59
Rigoutat also makes lovely oboes. I owned one for about 8 years before switching to a Lorée Royal AK (the oboe i own righ now is the only Lorée I've ever tried and actually liked). If/when I change oboes, Rigoutat will surely be on my list. I find their instruments have a beautiful "lightness" and sweetness.
O.
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Author: JRC
Date: 2012-05-06 18:18
My sentiment exactly. I like its sensitivity to different reeds. I can make my own tone easier with Rigoutat (classic bore is my choice) than other modern "dark & silky" sounding oboes. They are relatively insensitive to reeds. "Most" reeds sound alike. Not easy to sound distinct or the way I like.
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2012-05-07 12:24
@Drew,
[fair disclosure: I own a Marigaux]
Thanks for posting the link to that thread. I remember thinking at the time that the accusations were pretty outrageous, and then the president of Marigaux himself answered the accusations (certainly to my satisfaction) in great detail. The original poster removed his pictures and his post.
How sad that one bad experience hastily described here on the bboard has turned into an internet "fact" that "Marigauxs explode under pressure". Not so. And not specific to Marigaux.
All professional oboes have an area of weakness, that crowded area between the LH1 pad, OK1 and the trill-keys. Tone-holes, octave inserts, pillars are all crowded into approximately 2 square cm of area. We are talking about wood here, a natural material with a grain that expands and contracts with humidity and heat and has little tensile strength perpendicular to the grain.
No instrument makers will guarantee a top-joint "replacement" in the event of cracking. They guarantee a repair (usually for 1 year), and they will replace the joint only if repair is not feasible. Experiments with linings and composite materials exhibit a different set of problems. Plastic instruments are great but people expect plastic to be cheap, whereas the difference in cost to the manufacturer is that of a block of mozambique blackwood vs a block of plastic (a difference which is probably significantly less than 100 USD).
I have a Strasser-Marigaux with full professional keywork that I bought from a music store in Manchester, UK in ~1975. It still plays beautifully and it would suit you admirably. But I'm not selling.
J.
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-05-07 15:17
Fair enough on the Marigaux oboe topic. A used one goes for around $6,000. And I don't really want to spend that. So far I have two Loree C Series, an I series, an AK bore from 2001, a Yamaha 841T, and an MCW reserved. Probably won't be able to try the Howarths till I see John Symer on the 22nd. The B series isn't going to happen.
Drew S.
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Author: SomeGuyWithAnInternetAlias
Date: 2012-05-07 18:07
They still exist, and in Europe at least, are probably the most popular brand. They have quite a list of star-players: http://www.marigaux.com/en/category/musiciens
Post Edited (2012-05-07 18:15)
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Author: SomeGuyWithAnInternetAlias
Date: 2012-05-07 18:29
I've also heard a very bad stories about Marigaux, from teachers and repairmen, but never vitnessed anything first hand.
Keep in mind though, that the thicker the wood is in the walls of the oboe, the more likely an instrument is to crack*, and since Marigaux are known for a large heavy sound I'd think the tube is very thick. The Howard XL also has very thick walls.
*cracks happen when the interior of the wooden tube draws in moisture and expands, while the surface is still try and "crispy", this also explains why oboes are more likely to crack in dry air.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-05-07 20:23
Marigaux joints aren't anywhere as thick as Howarth XL joints - for instruments with relatively normal diameter joints, they do have a lot of tonal depth. There's more to it than thick joints.
But as far as oboes splitting and as I've already said many times before, any wooden instrument is just as likely to crack as the next one - it's not confined to specific makers, it's down to the nature of the materials used and what they're put under.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-05-07 20:31
Not gonna lie, I feel that the thinner the instrument, the more likely it is to crack.
Case in point, Bassoons don't seem to have near the amount of cracking problems as oboes do. I feel that it is because the wood of the instrument is thinker, increasing stability. Maybe it's because the bore is larger, so the effect of warm air is minimized. Maybe because the instrument is longer is the reason. I dunno. I still feel, the thinner the instrument, the more brittle it is.
Drew S.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-05-07 21:22
Bassoons have lined joints down the narrow side, but if you compare the ratio of joint thickness to bore size, bassoons have the thinner joints in comparison as well as being made from a far less dense and more porous wood - they're made from maple.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2012-05-07 21:25)
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Author: SomeGuyWithAnInternetAlias
Date: 2012-05-07 21:24
It's because the bore isn't as thin, so there's room for expansion without cracking the rest of the wood. That's the reason why always the top joint cracks, and why clarinets don't have that problem
Post Edited (2012-05-07 21:25)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-05-07 21:26
Clarinets DO have that problem - ALL wooden woodwind instruments have that problem!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2012-05-07 21:26)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-05-07 21:31
I've seen and repaired more cracked clarinets than I have oboes - probably due to the fact the clarinet is a more popular instrument than oboe.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: SomeGuyWithAnInternetAlias
Date: 2012-05-07 21:44
I think most oboists send the oboe to the original maker to repair cracks (or get new top joints), since all oboes have at least 1 year warranty and the vast majority of cracks occur within the first 6 months.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-05-07 22:06
The bore size has nothing to do with splitting - clarinets have a much larger bore and the amount of condensation that collects in the same location is much greater than it is on oboe.
Air pressure isn't even a factor as air isn't under serious pressure in the bore as it escapes from the nearest open tonehole, so no woodwind instrument can ever explode. Breath resistance is only due to the narrowness of the oboe bore compared to a clarinet bore and that won't make an instrument more likely to crack. Flutes have very low breath resistance (to the point of none) and wooden flutes which have a bore diameter even larger than a clarinet (17mm expanding to 19mm in the headjoint compared to the 14.3-15.2mm of various clarinets compared to an expanding bore starting at around 3.9mm of an oboe) which also split if they're not played in correctly or subject to extreme conditions (as do wooden piccolos).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-05-08 03:40
Wouldn't a more porous wood be more susceptible to cracking from moisture? This is why I'd be more wary of a kingwood instrument than an african blackwood one.
Drew S.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-05-08 10:02
Kingwood is less dense so it's more likely to split than blackwood and my kingwood oboe had been split prior to be buying it when it went out on approval to Italy. It came back to the factory and had a top joint transplant which is when I tried it and then decided to buy it. It hasn't cracked in all the time I've had it as I alternated it with my Yamaha during the playing in period.
Again, it's a case of playing in a new instrument carefully from early on to avoid it cracking and being cautious thereafter of conditions that could cause cracking, avoiding such situations wherever possible.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: philadelphiaoboe
Date: 2018-06-15 01:03
Just some information on the B series copies John Ferrillo is producing:
They are made with DeLancie's specs, and have a darker, smoother, deeper, and more focused/less spread tone for multiple reasons:
1. The original B series has slightly smaller tone holes than the modern Loree oboe, making it less apt to spread the sound- however it has a huge, clear, singing tone in the orchestra because Loree oboes have more undercutting than virtually every other brand, which gives life and vitality to the tone- though you have to know how to make good reeds.. important to remember there's a huge difference between what sounds LOUD up close and what actually sings and travels in the hall- the B series oboes create more of an "outline" "core" or "definition" to the tone as some like to call it. Ferrillo himself does not especially favor the Royale oboes everyone has begun to turn to.
2. The bore is narrower and longer- the keys are literally spaced out longer- creating a truer depth to the instrument. The narrowness also makes the sound less brash. The Royale on the contrary has a very large bore (as do Howarth XLs) that creates brashness in the tone in an attempt to make the instruments "Louder"- however; in order to counter the brashness they had to thicken the walls of the Royale and XLs, therefore creating a deader sound. Of course there are thousands of oboists who sound wonderful on both- but there's a vitality to th older Lorees that is being looked back on as people have begun approaching other brands.
3. There is no low B flat or F resonance on the copies- because Ferrillo believes the more unnecessary holes you drill into the bore of the oboe, the less whole the tone is, which can interestingly enough be felt in the evenness of tone color from top to bottom, alongside all of the other factors.
4. Loree oboes have gone out of fashion not because others have outpaced them- but simply because they have forgotten their past. Before Tabuteau's death (the B series were circa 1960-69) Tabuteau was one of the sole givers of input to Loree- and would whack them over the head if they started to veer off path. The man had experimented to great lengths with Moennig- and we can thank much of the understanding of proper voicing and undercutting of tone holes to the two of them. There was intended to be a clear lineage of care takers of the modifications done to Loree oboes- the next in line being DeLancie. However- DeLancie had a fall out with Loree: he had given them his own measurements and asked they label it the "DeLancie model"- a few of these still exist- however, Loree began to use his measurements on their non-DeLancie model oboes, which angered him and adversely affected his relationship with Loree. After this fall-out Loree began asking MANY people input on their oboes, those in and out of the Tabuteau school- a recipe for the creation of a truly uneven scale and going off-course in other tonal aspects. Why do I say this? It's like when too many chefs are in the kitchen trying to make the same soup- something is bound to happen that isn't consistent with what ANY of them intend, which is why having a select lineage of input-givers brought Loree to its greatness early on.
5. Ferrillo has also gotten Loree to implement a slight change in bore dimension of the top of the bottom joint- something DeLancie had done to his own oboe that had made the low-notes much more fluid and easy- as certain asymmetries in the bore have these affects when done VERY carefully and minimally so as to not cause certain notes to sag in the scale of the oboe. Loree has also began to implement this bore change into their very recent AK models (U-somethings)
6. Ferrillo has gotten Loree to put in a partial polymer sleeve in the top joint of the recent B series copies that goes up to the half-hole to create almost complete assurance against cracking, while still allowing for the resonance of wood.
Ferrillo does not like to take credit for these oboes- he has simply excavated into the past, and goes to Loree every couple of months to check up on the oboes and offer suggestions- which he has allowed them to implement into the new AK models (the recent U models that have been very popular for their evenness of scale and easier low register due to his specs).
Post Edited (2018-06-15 01:12)
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2018-06-15 20:26
This is an interesting post in its own right. There is no need to resurrect a six-year-old thread to post this!
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Author: EaubeauHorn
Date: 2018-06-28 21:23
The first thing I thought of when you said bassoons have less of a cracking problem, is that they have that long bocal; Ehorns also have a bocal, though not nearly as long, and you don't read much about Ehorns cracking even though they are often played cold. I think it is the bocal that makes the difference.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-06-29 14:18
EaubeauHorn wrote:
"The first thing I thought of when you said bassoons have less of a cracking problem, is that they have that long bocal; Ehorns also have a bocal, though not nearly as long, and you don't read much about Ehorns cracking even though they are often played cold. I think it is the bocal that makes the difference."
Bassoons have a lined wing/tenor joint bore to protect it from the effects of moisture - they're maple with ebonite or resin lined bores on the narrow side as maple will soon rot if it wasn't lined. But that only goes so far to prevent rot as they can get butt rot or rot around the tonehole linings if water finds its way into the gaps between wood and metal.
Cors do crack, but considering playing time on them is usually much less compared to oboes, they don't crack as often, but they can still crack like any other wooden instrument.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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The Clarinet Pages
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