 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: bechstein
Date: 2010-07-17 01:29
I have been searching for an oboe to purchase for my daughter. She has been playing the oboe for one year and would like to continue in her high school band in grade 8 in September (2010). We are looking to purchase a beginner or intermediate-level oboe.
We are currently renting a used Selmer 1492FB oboe for her but at this point we realize it would be better financially to purchase one rather than pay for its rental or even the rent-to-own program. The music store indicated the Selmer 1492FB value is about $1800 (used). I've seen better oboes for less than this in the local classified ads (such as Craigslist.org) and so I am now looking to purchase one from Craigslist or perhaps eBay.
I've been watching the local classified ads hoping to find a used Yamaha oboe such as a Yamaha YOB-241. I've heard Yamahas are good oboes for their price. I saw a used YOB-211 for $450 on craigslist.org but I later found out it doesn't have a left hand F which I have heard is a good feature to have after a year or two of experience. The next model higher, the Yamaha YOB-241 oboe, does have the left hand F and so is probably a better choice for my daughter considering she's played oboe for one year. (But the YOB-241 doesn't have the low B-flat and I am not sure if that is important or not). I am also considering a Yamaha YOB-244 but I think that will be over my budget.
Our current Selmer 1492FB has both the left-hand F as well as the low B-flat but I will likely return it because the cost to purchase it from our dealer is $1800 (used) and I feel I could find a better deal in my local classified ads, craigslist or on ebay. With our low budget I feel I can't go wrong because I am not expecting a Loree or any of the top level brands.
I've looked at other student-level models from Buffet, Linton, Barrington, Howarth, Kreul, Jupiter and Selmer but haven't made any decisions yet. I've heard the student-level Yamahas have a good sound considering their reasonable cost.
On an oboe I have heard it is important to have:
left hand F
left hand E-flat
low B flat (not critical but good to have)
resonance key (for F and/or B-flat I think) (I am not sure if this is important or if my Selmer 1492FB even has this.)
I have several choices of used and new oboes I see on eBay and in my local classified ads such as a Yamaha YOB-241 ($900), Yamaha YOB-244 (can't recall the cost), Buffet Crampon $1000 and then there are many new Chinese-made oboes such as these:
New Oboe. Full conservatory. $449.90
New Oboe. Modified conservatory. $520 And so here is my question:
At the student level, why would one consider purchasing a used Yamaha (with limited features) or any other well-known brand name oboe such as a used Selmer when for only about $500 you could purchase a new oboe made in China?
Has anyone here on this forum ever tried a new Chinese-made oboe? What may be your opinion? This question will require fair honest objectivity rather than blind brand loyalty.
Now please don't read me wrong here and consider I have not thought through the obvious which is the track record of these new Chinese instruments and the level of risk of buying an instrument with poor quality or sound - of which I have a feeling may not be as much risk as there was only a few years ago. Unfortunately, I do not play the oboe to be able to decide for myself but I do play the piano and just recently in late 2009 purchased a used grand piano (of unknown origin - was likely Korean made - based on feel and sound alone rather than brand). The piano industry is going through major economic changes due to the rise of Chinese production and design quality. As little as only two years ago (in 2008) it was considered extremely risky to purchase a piano made in China but recently the latest pianos from China have surprised the traditional western-based industry (and the Japanese piano industry) and caused a drop in piano prices worldwide by producing high quality pianos for significantly lower costs. The western piano industry has had to move much of its production to China because of this in order to compete. I can attest to this myself in that during my year of piano shopping in 2009 after playing hundreds of pianos over a year to test for myself, I played some beautiful sounding Chinese grand pianos that cost half as much as any American, European or Japanese grand pianos. These Chinese made pianos even played and sounded better. Take for example Hailun pianos. I preferred the $14,000 Hailun grands over the $30,000 Petrofs or even the $40,000 American-made Baldwins or most grand pianos in the $20-$30K range. Are the same changes that I describe in the piano industry occurring in the woodwind instrument manufacturing industry? Excellent quality from Chinese builders at a fraction of the cost of the traditional brands?
Based on my experience with being impressed with Chinese pianos I am therefore leaning toward purchasing a Chinese-made oboe). There is a 14-day return policy on these Chinese oboes and so I would be able to try it out to lower the potential purchase risk that comes with many ebay purchases. I could ask a friend who plays the oboe to try it out for us when it arrives.
Has anyone here on this forum had any experience with Chinese-made oboes or have any experience-based words of advice? Is there good reason to only purchase well-known brand names (such as Yamaha or a used Yamaha oboe or Buffet Crampon) or are the new Chinese oboes a viable alternative?
Thank you for any opinions,
Post Edited (2010-07-17 03:01)
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-07-17 02:21
In high-school, I played a Selmer Custom and my difficulty with tuning began when I bought my Lorée, which I have played ever since for 25 years. During this time, I have tried the best pro. models... there's a reason they are built the way they are and why they are so expensive!
Apparently, Yamaha has become a real contender for any professional oboist. I remember being impressed with them in the mid 1990's. What I liked about Yamaha is the predictable tuning: if a note is not perfectly in the right place, you can always expect it to be where it is and adjust accordingly.
I would go with the used Yamaha, provided it is in good shape (ask for the 20 secon seal test). An important aspect for any serious student is the low B-natural to C# trill.... the others should all be there.
Howarth and Kreul have good reputations. Forget the Linton!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2010-07-17 03:34
Yamaha is a fine oboe, but IMO, you should confine your search to instruments which have full conservatory keywork. It just makes no sense at all to me to purchase an instrument that lacks the keywork your daughter will certainly need sooner, rather than later, if she continues to play through high school and perhaps beyond.
There is such a thing as being penny-wise but pound-foolish. I don't know what the upper limits of your budget might be, but if they are in the $2,000 range, a used major-brand professional instrument, even an older one, would be a far better choice than a new intermediate.
May I suggest that you give Hannah Selznick of Hannah's Oboes a call, and see what she might be able to offer you. http://www.hannahsoboes.com/
Hannah advertises on this board, and in my experience is completely trustworthy. She will go the extra mile for you. Read the testimonials on her website. She knows her oboes!
Susan
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2010-07-17 04:15
For $1800 to $2000, you could get a used Fox 440, which is the standard of beginner - intermediate level instruments. They also hold their resell value better than a Selmer, Chinese instrument, or probably even a Yamaha 441 or so. I know Hannah Selznick of Hannah's oboes frequently has used Fox 440's for sale and it's certainly worth giving her a call about it. The 440's have all the necessary keys except the split ring E key.
Cooper
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-07-17 13:47
The Fox 330, Cabart and Howarth S40c/S45c are all intermediate oboes that have nearly all the keywork found on top pro models (minus the split D#-E ring).
The Cabart and Howarths have the low Bb bell vent key to true up low Bb (which will be flat without it) and both of these are wooden bodied. The Fox 330 is plastic bodied, so will be a good all-weather oboe (although the Howarths may have with a plastic top joint depending on who ordered them and what they specified).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2010-07-18 08:56
As far as I recall, the few people on this list who have tried Chinese oboes have been very disappointed. Poor intonation, poor-quality and easily bent keywork were the major complaints. That said, I haven't seen a review for a while, possibly two years or more.
Oboes are complex, fickle and rare instruments. I wouldn't hesitate to buy a keyboard or guitar on the auction websites, but not an oboe that could be stolen, unplayable or just plain nasty.
The oboe-specialist dealers (one is mentioned above, but there are many) will help you pick out a reasonably-priced second-hand instrument and make sure it is in good playing condition before you try it. They are passionate and committed professionals with a reputation to uphold - a far cry from the anonymous sellers on websites. Yes, they take a small percentage to maintain their businesses, but I think that is money well spent.
Read Martin Schuring's advice here:
http://www.public.asu.edu/~schuring/Oboe/instruments.html
J.
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-07-18 13:25
Here is a site:
http://www.alibaba.com/countrysearch/CN/oboe.html
However, you have to be in China to try them out. You'd better be able to speak the language too. If not, you'd find out that 99% of Chinese wont even try to communicate with you. They dont hold your credit card number, ship the oboe to you for a week's trial, dont like it, send back. Like it, keep it and they charge your card. This is NOT the Chinese modus operandi. Besides, you are just buying one.
However, there is a place in Hong Kong:
http://202.66.146.125/aboutus_6_1_5.php
They do carry some China made oboes. Hong Kong speaks English, but anything in HK is pricier.
As for the quality of Chinese oboes, I have only tried their top of the line rosewood made oboes and they werent bad. I didnt try any of their low end plastic or acrylic oboes, so I am not able to comment.
I notice you hail from Canada, I'd recommend you go with the known student brands that are out there and recommended by people on this board. At least, you will be working with "knowns", and if you need to service or fix things, most oboe shops in US will entertain without issues.
Cheap Chinese oboes, unless your daughter is able to make reeds to complement the oboe, she will sound terrible. It is very likely that she will get demoralized and give up. So, dont start her on the wrong foot. Instead, get her to love the sound and playing, by getting her something decent.
I started with a cheap used B&H when I was a kid. Bought, cheap reeds and had to live with this narly instrument and absolutely hated the sound, till my teacher at the ABRSM, loaned me a student LeBlanc. It was a grednanilla oboe and sounded half way decent. I actually sounded good. That kind step that my teacher extended towards me, inspired me to go on, to finish up my LRSM exam and have been playing the oboe ever since.
Making an oboe is very different from manufacturing a piano. The oboe is a finely tweaked instrument with very precision wood working and boring, precision machined metal keywork adding to the complexity. Factory made in quantities again will be different from hand made oboes. The piano is basically string based with felt hammers and the Chinese have been making their "yang qing"s and other stringed instruments for thousands of years. Their closest to a woodwind would be their flute, which is just hole bored into wood or bamboo. The oboe has precision keywork, so it is not a simple instrument to make. Yes, they can get a template and bore out all the oboes in huge quantities at their factories. As for Chinese hand made, they dont come close to the Laubins or even the Loree, Rigoutat or Marigaux. As far as sound and quality of tone, they probably can get as good as a Yamaha.
Anyway, here is my 2c "unbiased" comments about the Chinese oboe. And yes, with the USD/RMB = 6.77 exchange rate, the Chinese oboe is at least half the price compared to the known brands out there. I dont blame you for wanting to buy Chinese.
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-07-18 15:51
I dont blame you. They are definitely in the stone age where it comes to promoting anything !! They are not marketing savvy like the rest of the western world.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-07-18 16:07
No-one in their right mind would ever use an instrument with bits of string wrapped around the tenons and keys missing in a promotional photo! Maybe they're showing what anyone buying a cheapo Chinese heap of cack is likely to expect not long after they've had it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-07-19 01:19
I think this is the pix u are referring to:
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/228185311/rosewood_oboe/showimage.html
Oboe in a very sad state...keys missing and strings coming off the tenon.
For everyone to get a good laugh !
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Author: bechstein
Date: 2010-07-20 00:10
Thank you Robin, Susan, Cooper, Chris and jhoyla for this much appreciated advice!
Thanks Robin for sharing all your oboe experience with me. Your response was very helpful. Yamaha is often recommended to me and I am now looking carefully for a used one. Thanks for this advise.
Thanks also Susan. Andrew at the www.abrsm.org oboe forum also recommended www.hannahsoboes.com too and so I will make a point to give Hannah a call later. Thanks!
Thanks jhoyla for the Martin Schuring web link with all his oboe advice for those looking to purchase an oboe. This is an excellent resource and we extremely helpful to read. Thanks!
http://www.public.asu.edu/~schuring/Oboe/instruments.html
It seems many people have steered me away from Chinese oboes for some reason or another. I think I will have to contacts a dealer for a less risky purchase.
By the way, I posted the same question to the abrsm forum (link below). Many helpful responses were given but in general to stay with more well known brands such as Yamaha, Fox 330, Cabart, Howarth S40 or a Howarth S10 but some of these might be too expensive for our budget. I'm strongly considering a used Yamaha 241 or somewhat interested in a Howarth S10 (if I could find a used one). I am also realizing I may have to increase my budget. Thanks for your helpful comments!
Here is the other forum I posted to with some great information with regards to my original question:
http://www.abrsm.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=43134
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2010-07-20 05:41
There is a woodwind guy in Toronto who apparently deals in oboes, if you want to avoid import taxes; get the info from the previously-mentioned Hannah and give him a call. Oh, his name is Armstrong (Gary?) and the link is at Oboes for Idgets website.
But I'm with the gang: Hannah is great. I've done well with other sellers of used instruments: Mark Chudnow, Peter Hurd, and Cygnet Studios (usedoboes.com).
Don't hesitate to take an instrument on trial and send it back if your daughter doesn't like it. I tried 3 once from the same shop... it was definitely worth all the postage.
GoodWinds
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-07-20 06:07
Most school indoor bands and school orchestras have instruments to loan students for free, while the student joined the band or orchestra. This was the case in UK and other Commonwealth countries eg Australia, NZ, HK, Malaysia, Singapore, India, I dont know about the norms in Canada.
Even the military bands in those countries loaned the instruments as long as you are member of the outfit. Robin Trooper in Canada, will know this for sure.
That could be a good recourse for you, rather than buy one right now when you are not very sure which direction to proceed. At least, this is a short term interim solution.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-07-20 10:49
As your ISP says 'New Westminster, BC', I wouldn't recommend the Howarth S10 or S20 for the reason they're both thumbplate system oboes. The S10 and S20 will be fine in the UK where the thumbplate system is still showing no signs of giving in (we do have conservatoire players here too, but most are thumbplate players), but elsewhere in the world the consevatoire system has become the standard. There are some British ex pat oboists in Canada and Australia (and elsewhere) who play thumbplate system oboes, though chances are the majority play conservatoire system.
So you will be better off with a conservatoire system instrument as that is the standard system used by players and teachers In BC, and the majority of oboes built are conservatoire system (even by Howarth). If going for a Howarth oboe, the S20c, S40c, S45c, S5, S6 and XL oboes are all conservatoire system.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: oboeidaho
Date: 2010-07-21 02:40
I really hope you are not buying this oboe without the help of a professional oboist, preferably your daughter's teacher! If she is not taking lessons, that would be my first recommendation - I can't emphasize how many students come to me with an oboe they just bought on their own, and it turns out to be not a good choice.
You sound like you have really done a lot of research, which is great! Go to the local symphony and get a one time session with one of the oboists to help you choose and instrument - a beginner will not have the understanding necessary make a sound choice. There are so many variables (and I would NOT say the low Bb is optional - I require (beg) my students to have the side F and low Bb if they buy new instruments.
I wouldn't consider a Chinese instrument, or ANY oboe I couldn't have a professional test play for me (Eb@y out - Cr@igslist possible since it's local). So many of the lesser brands are made with cheap metal that bends and gets out of adjustment easily. I'd try the sites mentioned above and check out Peter Hurd's site about buying used oboes. (oboes.us)
Good luck!
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Author: bechstein
Date: 2010-07-21 06:05
Good point hautbois francais about borrowing an oboe from the band if there is one available. I should make a last minute check with our band teacher to check this out. But he already knows my daughter is planning on playing the oboe and he was quite excited about having an oboe in his band. You're right. Maybe he has an oboe. I will have to ask him one more time before we make any purchase. I have a feeling he doesn't have one but it certainly is worth asking. Good idea. Thank you again.
Thanks Goodwinds for your help too. I'll note each of these sources in my oboe information file that I keep. I found Gary Armstrong's oboe resource page that you spoke about to be very helpful. Wow. Lots of info. Great page. Here it is:
http://www.oboesforidgets.com/links.htm
This is the information I really needed. Thank you so much. I was never sure what the difference was between the two systems (thumbplate versus conservatory) and which might be more appropriate for my area. Therefore I will look for a conservatory system. Thanks for pointing out which Howarths are conservatory.
Thanks oboeidaho. Good point. I do know an oboe teacher at one of the largest music instrument suppliers in Vancouver, Long and McWuade. I could ask for a lesson or two for my daughter and at that time discuss which oboe she recommends. Northwest Music also recommended a couple oboe teachers as well. Before reading your comment I wouldn't have thought that was as important but I think you are right - others have also suggested this somewhat about consulting a teacher - and of course taking lessons. About the key options, its interesting how many people differ on the opinion of the B-flat key being optional. Most agree the left hand F is definitely a feature you should look for as well as the left hand E-flat. But its the B-flat key that generates many differing opinions. Some say its mandatory whilst others say its not that important for the first few years. Interesting. I guess another good reason to consult a teacher.
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-07-21 06:34
Bechstein:
I was in an indoor band that didnt have an oboe. To fill the band's need at the time, they were playing Dvorak Slavonic Dances, there were Oboe 1 and 2 part. The band was entering an inter-school indoor band competition. They needed to fill the oboe position. I was a bagpiper then, but already trained in music, both theory and practical on piano and violin. The band teacher had a budget for instruments every year. So, he bought B&H oboes. The band teacher asked me to try the oboe. Because I played the bag pipes, volume of air going thru a reed on the oboe wasnt a problem. Seemed I had a natural flair for the oboe. So, he saw my potential. That was how it all started when I was 13. Later the band teacher sent me for ABRSM exams, and the school paid for it. So, I got free graded exams and an oboe to start. Of course, when I did well in the ABRSM, I coaxed my dad into getting a nice grednanilla Hans Kreul.
I am sure most school bands have a budget for instruments every year. If you can show some commitment and if the band plays concerts and competition, the school will almost always pay for the instruments. Those who play the baritone, clarinet, french horn, Bass, E flat horn, drums, bass drum etc are almost always bought by the school.
There is an advantage of being the first oboist in the school. The school orchestra always borrow the winds and brass from the school band. Your daughter will be busy keeping up with the many activities. But again, just like someone has said, make sure you or your band teacher find a professional in the know, to help buy the oboe, even if the school is buying it.
Post Edited (2010-07-21 06:41)
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-07-21 15:27
Gary Armstrong (Toronto http://www.garyarmstrong.com/index.html) and Twigg Musique (Montreal http://www.twigg-musique.com/index.php?id=119) are the standard places to purchase oboes in eastern-canada.
In the west (I don't know them, just found them when looking for stuff) there is (BC http://www.brassandwoodwind.ca) and someone else that I can't find right now.
Typically, they all have used instruments and a phone call is what's needed. Recall the advice from many people here: choose the instrument, not the brand. If you can find a good oboist to try the instrument for you, that will go a long way. Get in touch with the nearest University's faculty of music, there is often an advanced student willing to help. Or call the musician's guild and ask for phone numbers.
Otherwise, I recommend going to the American sites (Hannah's Oboes or Peter Hurd) because I know these 2, certainly others too, will test and fix the instrument well. Canada is just very poorly equipped for oboes: strange, because in my days, Canada (and Quebec in particular) was producing some really good pros going all over the world. The one good repairman we had in Montreal apparently was not able to sustain his business... his name is Martin Léveillée, if you can find him.
Best of luck!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: bechstein
Date: 2010-07-21 21:49
Thanks Robin!
I will check out these resources you mention especially Gary Armstrong, Hannah's Oboes and Peter Hurd. Will also look for some advice from an oboe teacher. Many people on this forum have assisted me and for this I am very thankful I now have some good direction rather than attempting to do this alone. Much appreciated!
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Author: bechstein
Date: 2010-07-21 22:03
Thanks you hautbois francais for this very interesting perspective. That was a great story too. Thanks! I will consult our band director and see where he stands on these kinds of views. Maybe something might work out in this regard in terms of the school supporting more than I thought they would. I wouldn't have thought about this before you mentioned it. Good idea. That's definitely worth asking about especially if they see the commitment. We'll also consult an oboe specialist for the oboe selection - many people on this forum and my other forums (www.abrsm.org and www.8notes.com) have stated this too.
Thanks again!
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Author: jadydady
Date: 2010-08-03 06:57
Thanks for the advise, hautbois francais. For the web site given,
"However, there is a place in Hong Kong:
http://202.66.146.125/aboutus_6_1_5.php"
I cannot open it. Do you know how can I open it? or do you have the address or contact number in Hong Kong that I can follow? Please comment.
Hope to hearing from you soon.
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-08-03 09:53
Jadydady:
Try this: http://www.tomleemusic.com.hk/home.php
This is Tom Lee Music store site. I am sure you know the shop at Cameron Road in TST.
Good luck !
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Author: boland7214
Date: 2015-01-30 04:39
Most of the people responding to the ladie's need for a "reasonably priced" oboe have not really "check out" Chinese oboes. To make a long story short, there is an oboe dealer in Las Vegas, Nevada who HAS "checked them out". He has a first class store or two of them. He and his family are oboe players. They KNOW oboes. He's been to China and found an oboe that he stands behinds and offers service for---the price being about $1200. www.kesslermusic.com Give him a try. He KNOWS what he's talking about! boland7214@aol.com
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Author: EaubeauHorn
Date: 2015-02-22 00:47
There also is no apparent return policy, and conflicting information on ebay:
The listing says no returns, then below it says 3 day return by default, and then it refers potential buyers to a non-existent web address: http://www.kesslermusic.com/terms.htm
Not something I would trust.
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Author: sylvangale
Date: 2015-02-22 09:50
I've been to Kesslermusic, it's a regular brick and mortar music store, just with internet sales.
No comment on whether their Chinese instruments are any better than any other... I only see mention of a 1 year pad/adjustment warranty on other Kessler instruments... I wouldn't trust a non-major brand myself. I could imagine the a Chinese oboe falling apart or losing all spring tension after a year.
The url is missing an L. This is their terms page:
http://www.kesslermusic.com/terms.html
♫ Stephen K.
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