 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ruben
Date: 2022-12-25 14:29
A flautist friend asked me a couple of days ago: "when and why did vibrato become taboo on the clarinet?" I wasn't able to provide him with an answer. The most recent players to use it-apart from the occasional exception-were English players of the generation of Reginald Kell and Jack Brymer. These days, British players have also given it up. So I ask our board members if they have an answer to this question. Merry Christmas, by the way!
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
Post Edited (2022-12-25 14:30)
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Author: graham
Date: 2022-12-25 21:02
Vibrato may have appeared on other instruments at various stages but less so on the clarinet. Most recordings of early flute and oboe playing are lacking in any or much vibrato. Some early violin recordings appear lacking in vibrato as well.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2022-12-25 23:07
It’s never taboo.
The issue really is why don’t clarinettists use it? I wonder whether it’s partly down to the fact that many don’t know who to use vibrato in a musical way to enhance a phrase. It’s not an all or nothing thing.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-12-25 23:09
I don't see it as a "when" question but rather, "is it necessary?" question.
The clarinet's timbre doesn't need it and in fact can be better off without it in terms of what it can do within an orchestral context. That said a friend of mine and I were trying to single handedly bring back vibrato to classical clarinet in high school much to dismay of our high school orchestra conductor. We wound up getting a gig playing in a pick up orchestra put together to present Don Giovanni at a local college that had plenty of singers but had to hire instrumentalists. The conductor brought in for the gig was a fellow in for a season from Holland and he asked at the first rehearsal, "Hey, can you guys play with vibrato?" We just looked at each other and laughed. We were in hog heaven for several weeks of rehearsals and two performances.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2022-12-25 23:24
I disagree Paul, in my own professional experience adding a little vibrato actually matches with the other woodwinds. The clarinet can indeed take it.
Vibrato should be treated like a condiment, too much and it overpowers the dish.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2022-12-26 00:00
I kind of agree with Paul. I never use it playing classically. The fellow who sits next to me in the band uses it when he solos-- he does it in a very tasteful way. Nevertheless, it's just not my thing. When I play jazz (dixieland and otherwise) all bets are off and anything goes (I should say I play AT jazz.....). I don't imagine there is any real way to determine approximately when it became "taboo".
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Post Edited (2022-12-26 00:02)
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2022-12-26 01:02
That’s personal taste Tom H.
There’s no scientific paper to suggest vibrato on clarinet is bad. I would make a guess that players in Mozart’s day used it as the ‘messa de voce’ was part of a performer’a tool kit. Quantz talks about it in his flute method.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2022-12-26 05:21
Merry Christmas!
There was a time in the history of Western music, or so our teachers told us, when even singers used vibrato little if at all and only as an ornament. The same was true in less ancient times of the string instruments. Vibrato only came into use for vocal and some instrumental musicians as a constant, integral part of tone sometime in the (probably early) Romantic era and I've always assumed it was only adopted regionally over Europe through the 1800s and exported to America in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
I've read passages in periodical articles that suggest this or that well-known historical player used vibrato or didn't use it, used "lip" vibrato or "diaphragm" vibrato or "intensity" vibrato. For players who left no recordings we can't know apart from others' reports. I've heard many of the American "classical" players I've listened to in more recent times use vibrato sometimes as an expressive device and I've heard some use it as a constant part of their tone. I don't think it's "taboo" in that you can find players even today who use clarinet vibrato under certain circumstances.
I can't remember hearing a legitimate "classical" player using the kind of lip and jaw induced vibrato used by every jazz player I've ever heard. In symphonic or chamber music it's subtle enough that you may not hear it from the audience in live performance, but it's there. Sometimes it's obvious, like the vibrato styles of Kell and Stoltzman. But I think your basic premise that vibrato at some time became a taboo for clarinetists is in my experience open to question.
Karl
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2022-12-26 06:45
Yes, personal taste. Also agree there is probably no info. to be found on when it became taboo, or if in fact it did or ever was.....
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2022-12-26 07:00
Merry Christmas everyone!
As per the literal question asked, "When and why did vibrato become taboo for the clarinet?"
The simple answer is: "It didn't."
I'd say that many (if not most) types of clarinet music almost demand the use of vibrato...or at least don't forbid it. Rock, Jazz, Swing, Trad, Pop, Folk, Turkish, some Klezmer, etc.
I'd propose that vibrato use on clarinet is more the rule than the exception.
;^)>>>
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Author: ruben
Date: 2022-12-26 10:56
Fuzzy: I should have said: taboo in playing Classical music. It's true that the clarinet is not only used in Classical music, one of its great strengths.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2022-12-26 14:04
Karl please cite your source on this:
“Vibrato only came into use for vocal and some instrumental musicians as a constant, integral part of tone sometime in the (probably early) Romantic era and I've always assumed it was only adopted regionally over Europe through the 1800s and exported to America in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.”
Vibrato or tremolo as it was referred to goes back to at least the 16th C in vocal music and early instrumental music. Mozart himself refers to vocal vibrato in letters to his father. Tartini, and Mozart’s father Leopold write about it in their violin method books. Vibrato was used to try and capture a ‘natural’ sound and by extension I would suggest that wind players generally have been using vibrato for centuries.
This is quite and interesting read:
https://scholarship.claremont.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1058&context=ppr
Merry Christmas
Peter Cigleris
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Author: graham
Date: 2022-12-26 16:04
Hi Ruben
A complementary question to your friend’s could be “why do clarinettists argue so much about how and whether to use vibrato?” The equivalent dispute for the violin is not using vibrato (or “wobble” as Roger Norrington calls it).
graham
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2022-12-26 17:52
Many teachers teach “no vibrato” as dogma.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2022-12-26 22:55
Firstly, note that "search" will show you that this same topic has been extensively aired in years gone by.
To add to that material, let me comment that I recently had the privilege of playing the Elgar Cello Concerto with Robin Michael, the principal cello of John Elliot Gardiner's ORR period band. It was a revelation, because the vibrato wasn't always on in the way that is in just about every other performance I've heard. And it wasn't a Norrington-style straight sound, either: some notes were pure, some started pure and developed vibrato, and others were intensely vibrated from the start. It was a master class in how to use vibrato selectively as an expressive device.
I don't see why classical clarinettists shouldn't heed this lesson. I grew up with Brymer and de Peyer, but their vibrato seems too much to me now. On the other hand, flautists of their generation, like Galway, used massive amounts and it's a relief that modern players like Pahud make a much cleaner sound. Such variations with time should encourage us to take the freedom to use vibrato where it can be helpful, either in warming up a shrill altissimo note, or purely as a element of phrasing. I've noticed Martin Frost do exactly this, and I can't see how anyone could object to this tasteful example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXsk1KqOAO8
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2022-12-26 22:58
cigleris wrote:
> Karl please cite your source on this:
>
> “Vibrato only came into use for vocal and some instrumental
> musicians as a constant, integral part of tone sometime in the
> (probably early) Romantic era and I've always assumed it was
> only adopted regionally over Europe through the 1800s and
> exported to America in the late 19th and early 20th
> centuries.”
I emphasize "constant, integral part of tone..." I was definitely not claiming that vibrato was a creation of 19th century musicians, but rather that it was used as an expressive device by instrumentalists (and much earlier by vocalists). As to sources, they have been too many to name, mostly instructions and explanations given by university teachers and by orchestra conductors and choir directors in rehearsing music for performance. I admit I didn't fact-check them when they made these claims. They were either grading me for a course or paying me to play in their orchestras, so I did as I was asked. Were I formally researching vibrato, I might well come to a different understanding. For me it has always, as a practical matter, been a question of taste, not, frankly, scholarship.
>
> Vibrato or tremolo as it was referred to goes back to at least
> the 16th C in vocal music and early instrumental music.
But as an integral part of tone production or as a selectively applied expressive effect? In any case, the origins of vibrato in Western performance practice are tangential to ruben's original post, which wasn't concerned about when the use of vibrato began, but rather when it became shunned (if it has been). I should probably have stuck to ruben's friend's actual question. Vibrato has not been abandoned or labelled "taboo" by the entire clarinet world, only by certain cliques within it.
Mozart
> himself refers to vocal vibrato in letters to his father.
> Tartini, and Mozart’s father Leopold write about it in their
> violin method books. Vibrato was used to try and capture a
> ‘natural’ sound and by extension I would suggest that wind
> players generally have been using vibrato for centuries.
>
I'm sure they have. And I'm anxious to read the article you linked below, although I can't tell from the URL if it's something I've seen before.
> This is quite and interesting read:
>
> https://scholarship.claremont.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1058&context=ppr
>
Karl
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Author: ruben
Date: 2022-12-27 00:04
Hi John. I wonder whether the Boosey and Hawkes wide-bore 1010s didn't lend themselves to the use of vibrato. Your thoughts on your recent performance of the Elgar Cello Concerto are real food for thought.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Hurstfarm
Date: 2022-12-27 00:32
There’s a contemporary account of Richard Muhlfeld using vibrato in performances of the quintet his playing inspired Brahms to write.
I don’t agree that its use today is “taboo“ as you’ll hear many excellent players draw upon a very subtle vibrato as a tool for expression in some lyrical passages. Some take it further, like Emma Johnson, who often uses vibrato in the English tradition. She touches on her thinking here:
https://www.emmajohnson.co.uk/emma-johnson-articles-peter-eaton-clarinets/. Richard Stolzman is another player whose “classical” recordings often use vibrato.
Opinions will of course differ on when it’s appropriate to use vibrato, and on how much is too much. Playing without vibrato, in tune, is always the safe option, and poorly executed vibrato will detract from any performance. However, done well, I’d argue that it can add to the clarinettist’s tonal palette and is a technique well worth studying.
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Author: graham
Date: 2022-12-27 00:35
Kell played on Hawkes Excelsior Sonorous instruments which had a 14.8 to 14.9mm bore, which was significantly narrower than the 1010. The first big name proponent of the 1010 was Thurston, who used no vibrato at all.
graham
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Author: ruben
Date: 2022-12-27 00:59
Thank you for the information, Graham. A 14.8 bore I would call a mid-sized bore, like the Leblanc LL, which was popular with jazz players (Jimmy Hamilton, Buddy di Franco...)
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: StanD
Date: 2022-12-27 21:57
To add a little fuel to the vibrato discussion: For those who have the recording “Clarinetfest ‘95”. Track #9, Fantasia on “I Puritani”, Andrew Simon, clarinet. Simon employs, IMHO, tasteful vibrato in the opening introduction section. The entire 9:14 minute track is a total delight. Judge for yourself.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2022-12-28 03:37
I don't believe a word of this anecdote I was told as a student. And for the record, I love the saxophone.
That said, I had a clarinet teacher who felt the saxophone presented a less than inherently beautiful sound for which vibrato added to its overall tonal color.
This same teacher did not feel the same way about the clarinet, believing, when played in the right manor, that its natural sound needed no such embellishment.
Post Edited (2022-12-28 03:37)
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Author: Jarmo Hyvakko
Date: 2022-12-28 10:47
As some in this conversation have pointed out, the origin of vibrato is singing and instrumentalists' attempts to get a singing quality into their playing. In "classical" singing, where you have to produce sound loud enough without any microphones, i presume, the vibrato comes by using abdominal support (not diapraghm!). The variation in air speed and pressure causes changes in intonation, so it's a very physical and emotional thing (?). And some wind and brass instruments act very similar. Added air pressure raises the intonation, thus more or less similar use of abdominal support as in singing causes vibrato.
In woodwind the flute and oboe react more to that than the clarinet. And in the clarinet quick added pressure flattens the intonation if anything. A good vibrato goes up and down around the pitch and trying to do the vibrato the singing way with the clarinet easilly causes a vibrato that oscillates between pitch and flat like laundry hanging in clothesline. Or a funny ha-ha-ha kind on an effect. That leaves us only the lip vibrato, which is quite easy to produce, like in string instruments moving your finger up and down.
I believe that a large amount of clarinetists, including me, have felt that using (lip) vibrato is a quite concious and deliberate way of imitating the real thing. And feels "cheap". One professor once blamed me of using too much rubato in my interpretation, asked me to try to express the things i wanted to express by dynamics and phrasing instead, because "rubato is the cheapest way of expession". Does vibrato fall to same category?
Jarmo Hyvakko, Principal Clarinet, Tampere Philharmonic, Finland
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Author: ruben
Date: 2022-12-29 13:55
I would just like to add that I never had a teacher-nor know of one-that actually taught the use of vibrato, the way string, oboe, flute teachers do. I know that it's supposed to just come naturally, but usually requires considerable practice to get right and make it sound beautiful.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: HeyHoHey
Date: 2022-12-29 16:06
"when and why did vibrato become taboo on the clarinet?"
great question….
Simple answer is that if one finds themselves in a musical community where the consensus is that vibrato on the clarinet is bad or taboo, then the idiots are probably running the show in that community. LOL
Hahaha….
But alas, the poor clarinet….
There is the famous quote about Anton Stadler (mozart’s clarinetist) that he was able to “imitate the human voice” particularly well with his clarinet playing. This bit about Anton Stadler is actually right on his Wikipedia page…. You can draw your own conclusions about what that means, but there is definitely a difference between a player actively trying to mimic the human voice with the sound of the clarinet versus a player patting themselves on the back and saying “I feel like I’m singing when I play because of my line, my legato, my note connections, my soul….. oh, I feel like I’m singing” lol ….. this is not the same as asking oneself “how do I actively mimic the sound of the human voice with my instrument?”
Certainly, particular styles and tastes with vibrato have changed through the centuries and will continue to change in the future, but aside from perhaps boy sopranos who don’t use vibrato mainly because their voices havent matured yet …..does anybody on this thread actually have a favorite singer or could give an example of a great singer in any musical genre that dogmatically never uses vibrato , rejects vibrato completely, and is completely against it as a tool for musical expression?
Hmmm, does this line of thought remind you of any clarinetist that you know?
Idiots (clears throat)……sorry…..
Post Edited (2022-12-30 09:11)
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Author: HeyHoHey
Date: 2022-12-29 16:09
Next time you encounter a clarinetist or any musician who raises their eyebrows and says “I’m not sure how I feel about vibrato on the clarinet. The clarinet should never use vibrato.”
Just tell them the truth.
“Oh come on, you’re being an idiot”
Post Edited (2022-12-29 17:20)
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Author: ruben
Date: 2022-12-29 20:51
In the slow movement of Glika's trio Pthétique, at one point there is the marking: vibrate (it may just be editorial and not on the original score). Would this imply that clarinetists at the time this piece was composed didn't normally play with vibrato?
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: HeyHoHey
Date: 2022-12-30 05:19
Maybe the ones in Glinka's circle didn't......Then, just like now, what is considered compelling musical expression is different from person to person, country to country, region to region, etc....
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Author: Jarmo Hyvakko
Date: 2022-12-30 12:53
Ruben!
Me too, no one ever taught vibrato for me either. I have learned to make it with my lips, feel that i get the best sounding one with that technique. And i am using it sparingly in suitable places.
And before this conversation becomes even more polarized, i say that in my previous post i just tried to make one possible thread to understand how vibrato has become controversial. And still doesn't belong to german-austrian style. And, let's be honest, german-austrian style is one corner stone of all classical music.
We all know the style Reginald Kell started. We also now that old french masters, Lancelot, Delecluse (who i had once chance to hear live) and others used this quite particular fast vibrato, a trade mark of french clarinet players during their time. In my ears that sounded quite clearly a lip vibrato. So vibrato is not and has never been a taboo.
In singing, vibrato seems to be a very physical and personal thing. In classical genre you quite seldom hear a singer that variates (is able to variate?) her vibrato very much. So it seems to be quite connected with support in classical singing technique. And boy, that can be occasionally disturbing. It would be delightful to hear that famous duet from Delibes' Lakhme even once with no, or at least minimal amount of, vibrato. And those vibrato competitions in operas, usually called quartets and quintets...
By the way, among singers, the period music singers often seem to be very able to variate their vibrato.
Jarmo Hyvakko, Principal Clarinet, Tampere Philharmonic, Finland
Post Edited (2022-12-30 12:58)
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Author: ruben
Date: 2022-12-30 14:07
Jarmo: I'm not so sure the major French players played with vibrato (Lancelot, Delecluse, etc.). I think that actually their tone was so reedy that it sounded as though they were using a fast vibrato. On the other hand, horn players in France did play with considerable vibrato until the 70s. Hence the Beecham quip: "Why do the French horns have to sound so French in this country?!"
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: ruben
Date: 2022-12-30 14:08
HeyHO: I enjoyed your three posts: informative, terse and...funny.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Jarmo Hyvakko
Date: 2022-12-31 11:17
Ruben. I remember Ulysse Delecluse having a constant, very dense vibrato, like lips trembling, as if you were freezing, through out the Poulenc's Sonata. The same vibrato i hear in Jacques Lancelot's recording of Mozart's Concerto on almost every long note.
Jarmo Hyvakko, Principal Clarinet, Tampere Philharmonic, Finland
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Author: ruben
Date: 2022-12-31 14:18
Jarmo: I believe you! The odd thing is that I've known French players -I'm French -that use vibrato and that deny using it. I assume they're using it unconsciously.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2022-12-31 18:54
My Kessler 1st Gen takes a lot of “voicing” to sound like a member of the clarinet family. I feel like I am inflating my nasal cavity to get a good clarion tone. I use the solo from Bolero played up to a high D on BC as a benchmark to see if I can make it sound like a Sop clarinet is playing it.
Then… I had the opportunity to try a Selmer 37 that was in top condition. It was way easier to make it sound good. I was not expecting it to matter that much to me. So I purchased it!
I use Fobes San Fran, Selmer C* and Grabner (3D printed) mouthpieces on it. With mostly Legere TS Studio reeds 2.75 strength. The Grabner responds best in the upper Clarion. I need to take in what feels like a lot of mouthpiece to make the tone ring. But photos of me do not look like I am eating the mouthpiece.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2022-12-31 19:22
ruben wrote:
> The odd thing is that I've known French
> players -I'm French -that use vibrato and that deny using it. I
> assume they're using it unconsciously.
Or they're calling it something else. I've known players of my teachers' generation who called what they did "added intensity." Maybe they equated "vibrato" with the lip/jaw motion, used universally by jazz reed players, that results in a clearer up and (mostly) down pitch variation than the "diaphragm" breath vibratos that mostly modulate the sound volume.
Karl
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Author: Jarmo Hyvakko
Date: 2023-01-01 13:12
Now i think we are getting there! Very interesting comments kdk and ruben!
Jarmo Hyvakko, Principal Clarinet, Tampere Philharmonic, Finland
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Author: donald
Date: 2023-01-01 15:21
I have several LPs of Delecluse playing... WITH a thin reedy tone and fast wobbly vibrato. Over the years I've often wondered if this was an accurate account of his playing, the technique being awesome to behold but the tone quality quite unpleasant ("one persons junk is another persons treasure", I've certainly come to appreciate a wide variety of clarinet sounds in my life, but reserve the right to say I don't enjoy something!).
I've actually been meaning to digitise some of these recordings and put them on Youtube but there's always something more important to do....
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