 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2021-07-30 01:22
I've noticed with regularity that beginners (especially adults), seem to have problems holding the horn, or getting their fingers in the right spots. I can understand that some people's flexibility might not be what it used to be.
I don't really remember having problems like that (saxophone, clarinet, flute, recorder). Once or twice I was sure my fingers just wouldn't do something, but it resolved itself quickly. Is this a problem for a lot of people?
I know that when you pick up a new horn it can feel impossibly awkward, but that goes away quickly. Maybe older beginners use their heads first, where kids just go with the flow. Using my head first HAS always been an obstacle for me.
Thoughts? Especially from experienced teachers, or older beginners?
- Matthew Simington
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2021-07-30 02:43
Matt74 wrote:
> I've noticed with regularity that beginners (especially
> adults), seem to have problems holding the horn, or getting
> their fingers in the right spots.
>
> I know that when you pick up a new horn it can feel impossibly
> awkward, but that goes away quickly. Maybe older beginners use
> their heads first, where kids just go with the flow. Using my
> head first HAS always been an obstacle for me.
>
Yes, that tends to be the central difference between child and adult beginners in my experience. Kids just want to do. Adults want to do "correctly." Kids eventually sort most of the initially awkward problems out (unless a rigid teacher interferes). Adults solve those problems only when they learn to focus on results instead of methods.
Karl
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-07-30 13:10
Hi Matt,
I'm an adult beginner and I'm having problems co-ordinating some fingers, but it tends to be the fingers that I don't use much for typing on my computer. My right pinkie is the only finger that I don't use when I touch-type and I constantly notice that I just don't have the co-ordination in it that I do in the others.
It is coming on as I keep practising, but it does take time. If I'm slower than a child, I would imagine it's to do with reduced synaptic plasticity in the adult brain.
Jen
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-07-30 13:19
I actually can't support the weight of the horn with my right hand at all but I use a claritie sling, which frees up my hands to do all the other stuff. That really helps. I also have a Kooiman thumb rest.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2021-07-30 20:29
Matt74 wrote:
> I've noticed with regularity that beginners (especially
> adults), seem to have problems holding the horn, or getting
> their fingers in the right spots.
>
> I know that when you pick up a new horn it can feel impossibly
> awkward, but that goes away quickly. Maybe older beginners use
> their heads first, where kids just go with the flow. Using my
> head first HAS always been an obstacle for me.
>
KDK wrote:
>"Yes, that tends to be the central difference between child and adult beginners in my experience. Kids just want to do. Adults want to do "correctly." Kids eventually sort most of the initially awkward problems out (unless a rigid teacher interferes). Adults solve those problems only when they learn to focus on results instead of methods."
I am an older player, not a complete beginner- played when I was young then stopped playing for long time (>25 years).
Even when I was young, I had difficult time holding the clarinet for >20-30 min. due to my thumb getting tired.
When I re-started playing (two years ago), I still had the same problem- the thumb would get painful after 20-30 min.
About eight months ago, I started taking lessons from an excellent player/teacher, who advised me to hold the clarinet differently- move the thumb closer to the clarinet so the thumb rest "sits" on the carpal joint instead of on the distal phalanx.
Which would be logical even from physics/levers point of view.
The pain in the distant phalanx stopped but I had to curve/reposition my other four fingers completely differently, which took a while to get used to, had pain in my metacarpal joint, which was helped by relocating the thumb rest higher. Still have problems with Rt. pinky E/B and F#/C# levers.
However , no pain. I believe that my fingers are definitely not as flexible and adjustable as they were when I was a teen, so that is why it takes so long to change things. In fact, I have lowered the thumb rest on my clarinet to almost its original position, and I can play other instruments that have the TR in original position.
Flexibility (or rather lack of it) is definitely a problem I feel every morning when I have difficulties closing my hand (making a fist).
Also, my understanding is that unless a student practices long time he/she may not experience pain; also some of the problems with fingers positioning may not reveal themselves unless playing some higher level technical passages...
Individual anatomy definitely plays a role: in our cars, we have 6-12 ways adjustable seats and adjustable steering column to accommodate an individual.
My own 2p- I am not an expert.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-07-30 21:00
m1964 - I think you're right about problems showing up with harder passages.
I just made the jump from aiming for an in-person Grade 3 exam to aiming for a Grade 4 video exam. That means going from playing about a 4 minute set with breaks, to an 8 minute set with no breaks.
Unfortunately, under that level of step up, all the cracks in started to show very severely and I've had to re-examine my technique in all areas and start from the bottom again. I think it's good to put the work in, but it's a bit of a shock to realise that I have such a mountain to climb to get from Grade 3 distinction to Grade 4 pass.
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Author: kehammel
Date: 2021-07-31 22:54
I'm an adult player with only a year or so of experience. I have a couple of Albert system horns that I regularly use to play folk music. I haven't had trouble "mapping" where my fingers have to go to cover the keys, since I play a variety of differently sized woodwind instruments.
However, I have had one issue that may speak to what m1964 says:
I had trouble using a regular thumb rest. The instrument was stable doing it this way because it was supported by the joint/ligament resistance that comes with angling the thumb down so it's no longer opposite the first or even the second finger. But after 10 minutes or so of playing, my right thumb would start to hurt and this made rapid fingering difficult.
Next I had a custom thumb rest installed so that my thumb was positioned higher. This solved the thumb pain problem, but after extended playing my thumb would get tired and sag (since the horn was still supported by the distal thumb joint). The horn became a moving target and then I would sometimes miss keys.
Next I tried the Kooiman Etude thumb rest, which supports the horn using the proximal part of the thumb. No thumb pain and no more sagging! But then my right index finger was uncomfortably close to the side F key (even though I had a tech bend it down a bit), and I would sometimes knock the key while playing. It was hard to keep my fingers arched enough to avert the problem, and the amount of arching required did not feel optimal for overall fingering. I don't know if this would be an issue on a Boehm instrument, though.
Finally I got a Kooiman Maestro thumb rest, which is more adjustable than the Etude, and this did the trick, although it does take some getting used to.
So here we have a not particularly skilled amateur using a $300 thumb rest on a $600 clarinet. But it works!
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-08-01 00:22
I love your solution kehammel. I think one of the nice things about being an adult beginner is that we can just spend money to solve problems once in a while.
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2021-08-01 11:15
I think the thumbrest is the bane of every clarinetist.
Jen’s comment about touch typing may be right. I started Saxophone and Clarinet in middle school, and had a year of piano lessons when younger. If you never did anything with your hands requiring that sort of co-ordination I can see how it would be more challenging.
It’s mostly about practicing scales for me. I find that there is sometimes a very high initial difficulty with certain finger combinations, but that it doesn’t really take that long to push through until you start to get it - but you have to have patience. Perfecting it does take longer. My problem is that I don’t want to slow down and struggle through it until I get it.
That said, you do NOT have to get it right from the beginning. For the most part, I inevitably have to do something wrong before getting it right. This sometimes means having bad habits before good ones. I often go through several bad habits before finding the good one. It’s not really “inefficient”, because that’s the only way to learn.
Thinking about something and doing it are two entirely different things. The trap is when you think you can understand something before doing it. With a lot of things you can only think about them correctly AFTER you can do them. It’s like riding a bike. I think a lot of playing is that way. The reason is that the real concept is not a visual or imaginative one. The real concept is a somatic one - based in bodily sensations. You remember how it feels. That’s why it’s sometimes counterproductive to try to do it “correctly” from the beginning. A concept of “correct” that’s not based in experience way may actually be incorrect, or inaccurate. Focusing on that idea may sometimes get in the way of “getting the hang of it”. Even if it is mostly “correct”, it’s still the imaginative concept, not the physical experience, so it’s actually distracting and impeding progress.
- Matthew Simington
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