 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2022-08-03 00:07
This bboard has had its fair share of gear questions and gear debates over the decades. Discussion about the theory/physics etc. can be fun and even enlightening.
However, I still can't get excited about gear - at least not as either a barrier or a panacea. A tube is a tube. A hole is a hole. A vibration is a vibration.
Save a fairly rudimentary level, the balance is in the skill/practice/makeup of the human playing the instrument.
Can gear help make something easier or harder? I suppose.
Can gear make things more or less comfortable for various humans with various different physical make-ups? Certainly.
Can certain gear make playing more subjectively "fun" or "enjoyable" than other gear? I think so. To each his own.
So - I'm glad there is a lot of gear out there, I truly am. We're not all built the same, and we're not all aiming for the same exact goal. It is nice to know what options are out there.
However, when the topics touch on the equations of xgear+ygear=result, I become skeptical. Best ligature for... Best barrel for... Best clarinet for... Best material for... Easier with... How to achieve Z... Best facing... Best reed...
How is it that a great player can pick up a leaking instrument with a poor reed (and all the wrong gear) and still sound better than a lesser player on a perfect instrument with all the "right" gear? This question underlines my "doubt" pertaining to gear and explains why it produces an ambivalence in me (or is it a disregard?) toward gear.
Great players play great. Gear seems to make this task either easier or more difficult. More comfortable, or more work. More fun, or less fun. More this, less that. However, beyond a certain baseline - it rarely prevents the great player from playing greatly.
I often wonder if all this gear talk on the bboard, in practice rooms, and in schools lengthens the student's trail to becoming a great player instead of shortening that trail. From past experience, I know it at least lightens the wallets of the student's parents.
;^)>>>
Fuzzy
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Author: lydian
Date: 2022-08-03 00:21
I'm with you. Gear doesn't matter all that much. As you know, a great player can make anything sound great as long as it's in functioning order. Nice things feel, look and even sound a little better of course. We all like nice things. And new gear can temporarily re-kindle interest just like that new Christmas toy for a child. Plays with it for a little while, then wants another shiny new thing, repeat ad infinitum.
I try to put the gear myth to rest with my students early on. I let them play my horn, and I play their horn (this was before Covid). Guess what. They still sound like them on my top of the line horn, and I still sound like me on their student horn. But that still doesn't stop most people from going down the gear rabbit hole.
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2022-08-03 00:51
Why did you buy a top of the line horn then, since you say gear is not important?
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Author: lydian
Date: 2022-08-03 00:55
Hunter_100 wrote:
> Why did you buy a top of the line horn then, since you say gear
> is not important?
Because I didn't know that back in '79 when I got it.
Don't get me wrong, I don't buy crap now because I still like nice things. I just realize now that it won't make me sound any better. So I don't chase boutique mouthpieces, ligatures, etc.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-08-03 01:06
I still say, a beginner student would be best served using the best gear they can afford. Awful gear will only hold you back or even discourage you from continuing the pursuit.
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2022-08-03 01:12
Paul,
Quote:
a beginner student would be best served using the best gear they can afford
Please define, "best gear" - I think this is what helps define my point.
What is "best"? For what purpose is it "best?" What qualifies it as "best?" For whom is it "best?"
;^)>>>
Fuzzy
EDIT: added quote
Post Edited (2022-08-03 01:13)
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Author: lydian
Date: 2022-08-03 01:25
Obviously you don't want anything that's so poor quality it doesn't work properly. But many student level instruments serve most students very well and don't hold them back at all.
I bought my kids a good quality used car for their first car instead of a brand new Ferrari because that's all that's necessary for the purpose. Same goes for instruments.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-08-03 05:29
If there is serious interest, THE BEST is a professional line instrument. Those are around four grand. You don't have to buy some exotic custom instrument for fifteen thousand, just a professional level (and professionally set up) horn.
Yes there are good student line horns or used horns that are a good value. But I've seen some disasters out there like the $200 Chinese horns (new and the photos look good) that have poor intonation, are almost impossible to service due to poor fundamental mechanics. Or there were even $80 Walmart clarinets (hopefully those are not out there anymore) that had glued in posts and springs that were virtually non-adjustable. Someone might think you may have something there that's ok for a rank beginner and that would be like putting a teenager going into driver's training into an old clunker car with the transmission just about to fall out. I don't think anyone would want that.
And by the way, when we (of the Board) talk about "music" there are so many different opinions and many many more subjective off ramps that I personally prefer to render judgements on ligatures.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: lydian
Date: 2022-08-03 06:17
My LeBlanc clarinet cost me $50 used back in the 70s and has served me just fine in hundreds, possibly thousands of gigs since then. That "student" model sounds as good as any of my bandmates' pro horns. I personally can't even imagine spending 4 grand on a clarinet when I already have tens of thousands sunk in other instruments that get me a lot more gigs. The audience is never going to hear that $3950 difference, and the venue is never going to pay a premium because I might have an expensive clarinet.
If clarinet was truly my bread and butter, I might open my wallet and treat myself. But for my circumstances, a cheap clarinet is sufficient. If it's sufficient for me, it's also sufficient for lots of players, in my opinion. I realize there are a few pros on this board, but the rest are probably amateurs for whom a horn costing thousands would be foolish. So I'm never going to encourage those folks to spend more than they need to.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-08-03 09:26
Hi Fuzzy,
I'm sorry but I 100% disagree.
It's probably true that great players can make anything sound good. My clarinet teacher is a professional opera singer, and he can make any clarinet sound fabulous, including my leaky, flat, 100 year old E.J. Albert.
But I am not a great player, or an opera singer. My breathing muscles and my embouchure are not very strong, and neither is the rest of me. When it comes to gear, I need all the help I can get.
For me, your argument is like saying "If some people can take a rowing boat solo across the atlantic, or run a marathon, then why would anybody else need a sailboat or a bicycle, or a car?".
For me, my $2000 clarinet is like a motability vehicle. I freely admit that, but I love it so much. I couldn't travel in music without it, and I'm so grateful for all the gear advice on here that keeps me on the road.
Jen
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Soprano Sax American Cut #2, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2022-08-03 09:27)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2022-08-03 10:21
I think that if you know what you're looking at great instruments need not be expensive. My favourite clarinet, in daily use, is a late 1940's Pustophon, bought on that auction site for $US60. It needed a bit of work, but for a total outlay of under $US200 I have an instrument which I would compare favourably with most far more expensive offerings. My 926 Imperial cost me $A30, and after a repad and some cosmetic work is as good as when it was made, and my 1927ish Louis of Chelsea is still a superb instrument. If you have the time, patience and expertise (or access to it) then it can be done inexpensively.
Tony F.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2022-08-03 16:25
Fuzzy:
I completely agree with what I think is the tenor of your point that gear doesn't make the player. Still more, I find myself reeling in young players who want to buy into the "church of gear," particularly as a substitute for hard work.
As I've said in prior posts, in my opinion "the best gear is an etude book," and this sentiment is of course based on the idea that the gear being used meets some basic requirements as it regards playability.
But at the margin, I do think, all else equal, some gear is better than others, and that for truly virtuosic players, pushing the limits of what's possible, their setup can make somewhat of a difference.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-08-04 09:40
The thing is, for a learner, bad gear can really make things very very difficult. I find I am much more motivated to put in the hard work, if I'm playing on gear that is not causing me endless problems.
At the learner end of the scale, even a non-optimal ligature can make life extraordinarily difficult.
It's further complicated by the fact that getting hold of good gear generally either requires a lot of money, or expertise, or both.
This is a very different from a violin, for example, where a good serviceable instrument can be bought fairly cheaply, and basically just works.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-08-04 19:21
Hi SecondTry,
I've been thinking more about what you said about young players engaging with 'the "church of gear," particularly as a substitute for hard work.'
As a Mum of a teenager, I just wondered if I could put in a good word for those kids? So many teens are anxious, depressed, lonely, or in bad company.
I reckon if your biggest teen problem is that they love beautiful clarinets and play them badly, then I would embrace that with open arms. You may be giving them the only healthy bit of company in their week, and letting them feel really wonderful in their own imagination.
I coveted and bought a £52 violin at that age. I never really got past the Christmas carol stage on playing it, and my wrist packed up at age 25 so that I was never able to play it again. However, my ownership of the instrument is still a huge source of personal pride and a central part of my positive sense of identity.
I wonder if there is a way for you to value the lazy young clarinetists and their enthusiasm for gear, just so you can build that positive self-identity that will help them so much in future years?
Thanks!
Jen
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2022-08-04 21:16
SecondTry wrote:
> Still more, I find myself
> reeling in young players who want to buy into the "church of
> gear," particularly as a substitute for hard work.
> SunnyDaze wrote:
> Hi SecondTry,
>
> I've been thinking more about what you said about young players
> engaging with 'the "church of gear," particularly as a
> substitute for hard work.'
>
I don't know what SecondTry means by "young players." My experience with students who are high school age or younger is that they tend to be more than anything else oblivious to equipment shortcomings and sometimes need to be convinced that they would sound and generally play better with a different mouthpiece, different reeds or a better regulated clarinet. They are more often than not actually surprised at how much easier some things are when I let them play on my instrument or offer a more responsive mouthpiece from my desk drawer. They're even surprised, when I ask them to put on a new reed, how much of a difference it can make.
The young players most attracted to SecondTry's "church of gear," I find, are college-age students who are suddenly exposed to players from different backgrounds and often more gear-aware teachers. As college students my peer group (college in the late '60s and early '70s) didn't have nearly as many choices, and we managed to find lots of things to experiment with. We all came into college playing equipment our high school private teachers had selected for us. I don't know what older teenagers are doing about equipment these days with the seemingly infinite alternatives that are available. Based on the high school students that I've been teaching, I don't think they're much more aware than we were that equipment can make any difference at all.
Karl
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2022-08-04 21:37
Hi Jen:
Your points are well taken, and I'll try to respond to them with a non-defensive posture, providing context to my situation.
It was 1st grade. My music teacher handed out these new plastic recorders in a green corduroy pouch. They probably wholesaled for $2.25, if that, in today's money. But for me, that instrument was pure gold and a truly life changing event where with age, the natural progression was to clarinet, with the rest being history.
So I not only do I get what you're saying, I hope to some extent I've walked the walk of which you speak, having refurbished all but discarded Selmer and Buffets at my cost, and given them away to students who can't afford them, at my nearest urban HS for the arts.
With this said, and the following I say void of opinion but relevantly, I live in an affluent area where I have helped music students prepare for State music auditions, mostly for the purposes of building their college resumes to pursue non-musical study.
With access to their doting parent's money they've flipped their iphones to web pages of the latest gear from nearby Weiner music, claiming it wrongly the missing link in why some difficult musical passage continually goes played with errors, despite their ownership of a near brand new professional instrument.
It's at this point, disinfectant spray within reach, that we swap instruments to my successful play of said passage, re-disinfecting instruments to their owners.
Thereafter, my response is something to the effect of--and I'll quote you a recent one literally--"Bearmann, page 26, Bb major, play flawlessly at a speed you can handle, work your way slowly up the metronome no faster than you can play accurately."
You see Jen, I completely get the challenges of growing up and how nice gear can motivate and improve the outlook of youth. But my youth, who CAN afford such stuff need a reality check in what is truly needed for them to get to the next level, which is practice. 
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2022-08-04 23:17
For me there are four very big "gear" issues:
#1 cracked reeds (or wrong strength)
#2 leaking (pads/seats/joints)
#3 bent keys
#4 chipped mouthpieces
#5 physical breaks (ligature, clarinet body, etc.)
Perhaps there are a few more in a similar vein. This is the "above a certain baseline" of which I spoke. Beyond these issues, I feel gear becomes somewhat of a preference for comfort, fun, ease, sound concept, etc.
I've made no argument against spending lavishly if that's what a person wants to do. The price of the "solution" doesn't matter to me for the purposes of this discussion; my post pertains more to the binding of people to the belief that a certain piece of gear will deliver a promised result, or cripple/handicap them if they can't obtain that piece of gear.
Jen (and I mean this in the most sincere and friendly way possible), it saddens me to know that you feel a "non-optimal ligature can make life extraordinarily difficult." To me, this is tragic and restrictive - though it might be true for you.
Unless the ligature is broken, I find that for a high percentage of what I do - the ligature is nearly meaningless/interchangeable - which is extremely liberating. With this piece of hardware being minimized in its importance to me, it also minimizes the chances that it serves as a roadblock to me and what I want to do.
I read an article a few decades back that started me on my way down this viewpoint on gear. It was either "Clarinet" or "Woodwind" magazine or something along those lines: The article was written by a pro player who had bought heavily into the "gear will fix my woes" idea. The player (for a reason I can't remember) ended up needing to replace the ligature. After digging through a drawer of generic old dime-a-dozen ligatures, the musician tried a bunch - only to find that the most basic and generic of them all played better than the high dollar one which was being replaced.
At some point after reading the article, my primary ligature broke and the model was no longer produced. I was using my backup, but realized I needed to find a new solution for the future.
I remembered the article and began skeptically going through my own drawer of ligatures (I was a gearhead at the time). I found some of the Harrison knock-offs made by Rico or BG or whoever made them at the time, I found them to be somewhat clunky. However - I turned them around backward on my mouthpiece - so that the clamp was over my reed, and I (surprisingly) enjoyed the results. I still use this ligature (or replacements of it) to this day - backwards. Works great for me. I've experimented with different ligature ideas and found string works really well for me too.
Now, I don't stress over losing a ligature or having one stepped on/broken, etc. It is very liberating.
I'm not suggesting everyone would come to the same conclusion by any means; but simply pointing out that by eliminating as much gear-dependency as we can, we might find a liberating freedom to create waiting for us on the other side.
There's another point to be made: we aren't all top-notch classical players - nor is that our shared goal. So gear "solutions" past a very rudimentary point aren't equally applicable to our abilities or goals.
Gear is great, but my view is that it should be utilized to remove barriers, not artificially/mentally create them or intimidate us into conformity.
;^)>>>
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-08-04 23:18
Hi SecondTry,
Thanks so much for your kind reponse and for such a careful explanation of the situation. I understand exactly what you mean about the situation that you are describing.
It's just so very difficult with young folks isn't it? The balance between giving them what they need to get on, and not giving them so much as to ruin them. I really think it's such a very difficult job and a constant balancing act.
I think about this a lot, with my mothering hat on. The only conclusion that I can reach is that raising young people right is just really really a *lot of work*, and constant, dedicated, careful work at that.
Well done for keeping bashing on there. I hope they appreciate you.
Jen
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-08-04 23:32
Hi Fuzzy,
Thanks for phrasing your comment on what I said about ligatures so kindly. I'm afraid it is true for me though.
For me, a Rovner Dark, or a bit of string, is like the trusty pair of stabilisers on a bike, that makes learning to ride such a pleasure.
If you want a laugh sometime, I will list all my other ligatures and the hilarious things that happen when I try to use them. I do think it is quite funny really.
Thank goodness for string though.
Jen
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2022-08-05 00:17
SecondTry wrote:
> It's at this point, disinfectant spray within reach, that we
> swap instruments to my successful play of said passage,
> re-disinfecting instruments to their owners.
>
This brings up a nostalgic, maybe silly point. When I was a student, all the way through my graduate study, the world, or at least the instrument teaching world, was a much less germ-conscious place. The procedure SecondTry describes happened countless times during my lessons with all my teachers - the more easily for lack of the disinfecting spray on either side of the exchange. If I couldn't do something, the teacher would take my clarinet with my mouthpiece, reed and ligature, from me and play the passage. What followed was either a demonstration that my technique was at fault or a discovery by the teacher that in fact something was wrong with my setup. My teachers almost never had their own clarinets out during my lessons.
Sometimes a leak develops or a key starts to stick. Often a student is playing on a piece of soggy, unbalanced cane masquerading as a reed. Sometimes a mouthpiece just won't do something without a lot of coaxing or compensating. And sometimes a student just needs to execute better. The teacher has to be open to all possibilities because the student isn't necessarily experienced enough to know the difference.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-08-05 07:38
The social/COVID realities of the day make diagnosing issues with students' set ups far more challenging. I still have no problem (speaking for myself only) with grabbing a student's horn sans mouthpiece to check for leaks or mechanical abnormalities. Once in desperation (pre-COVID) I did convince a student to let me try the mouthpiece. It was the only way to rule that out as the problem.
I ALWAYS have my horn out. It occurs to me that today's students may not know what a live clarinet is supposed to sound like (with only fellow students to hear for comparison).
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-08-05 09:06
Hi Paul,
It's shame that we can't share so easily now. I suppose those days will come back though.
My E.J. Arnold was in active use during the days of diphtheria and the 1918 flu epidemic, but it was never a risk to anyone pre-covid, because we all had the immune protection against both. Once we're all up to speed on covid, I think clarinet-sharing will become normal again, I would hope.
Jen
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2022-08-09 19:23
Hi Jen,
(Responding to your post from the "Ligature For Soloists" thread http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=499259&t=499259)
I understand the usefulness of blind tests for proving specific claims about a specific piece of gear. However, what I was proposing was a bit more far-reaching than that. The discovery process - ignoring the claims about any specific gear instead of proving them/disproving them.
Problems with performing a blind test are that:
1. A player's body is non-exact in measurement, movement, placement, or muscle control (as stated - the human body is the largest part of the instrument) which could skew the findings.
2. Reed placement is personal.
There are robots capable of playing wind instruments and removing some of these issues. If (instead of discovery/learning) we're talking about proving/disproving specific claims about gear, then perhaps robots would be necessary for testing. This is why I didn't think it was practicle for our discussion here on the bboard.
3. But what about that link marcia shared? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAqL1nVQfFs You didn't comment on that. Meaning: a non-blind test and all the different ligatures sounded very similar. What possibilities can we take away from that?
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
[edit: fixed hot link]
Post Edited (2022-08-09 19:26)
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2022-08-09 23:25
I'm discouraged (having just returned from reading the most recent post/information provided in the other thread.)
To the "absolutely brilliant" response (as indicated in the other thread), I make the following observation (and repeat myself - and others in the process): "...the sound differences could be explained by things outside of the physical make-up of the ligature..." or - to paraphrase: "...the difference in the graphical representation of globs could be explained by things outside of the physcial make-up of the ligature..."
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-08-10 00:41
I tried to make clear the note to note movement was the ONLY variable in the played example at 5:55 in the Dale Fedele video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o68Iqf_1vDg
So we are listening to a specific video, played by one player on one set of variables (instrument and associated equipment) with the only change being the notes. We are told (and we can hear) those differences in quality and now we can SEE those differences. Where is the frustration? The previous ligature at the 5:30 mark is consistent in the ways the other isn't. The difference? The first ligature (at 5:30) is a new silver plated Bonade. The second (at 5:55) is an old, German silver Bondade. Kinda interesting isn't it?
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2022-08-10 00:54
Paul,
I appreciate your sincere efforts...but I repeat myself (and I'm not trying to be unfair here): how can you rule out tongue movement? Air velocity? Air volume? Tongue placement? Tongue position throughout the attack/course of the note. How can you rule out venting? Oral cavity size/shape? Finger nuance? Pad height caused by slight variation in finger tension? Embouchure compensation? [edit: removed duplicate "Air velocity" line]
Perhaps I'm missing your point (if so, it is not intentional) - but it still seems like quite a few things might be possible causes besides the ligature(s) itself/themselves.
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
Post Edited (2022-08-10 00:55)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-08-10 01:42
Because the faulty notes are wonderful just a few seconds earlier on the 'good ligature.'
Later in the video Dale Fedele goes through other "good ligatures" to include a modern, gold plated BG Tradition. So for some strange reason that defies logic, one or more of the factors you listed just happened to occur on that one ligature for only every other note (and the Eddie Daniels on every note).
What am I missing?
Of course here I must admit that there are just issues involved with what a player is used to while playing. If Fedele spent six months exclusively playing on the new Bonade the poor notes would be better (as longer, held notes) because he'd make adjustments in his playing to make it so. Still running a fast scale would be problematic.........and less obvious.
..............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2022-08-10 01:50)
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2022-08-10 02:19
Paul, thanks again for your patience in trying to address my question.
Your reasoning: Quote:
Because the faulty notes are wonderful just a few seconds earlier on the 'good ligature.' which indicates a ligature change (and subsequent repositioning of the reed, embouchure, et al) has occurred between the comparisons. So your thought process confuses me a bit. Why would we expect the recorded sound to be the same? The reed has been moved to some degree, the embouchure has been reset, the oral cavity reset, the angle/distance of the applicable toneholes in relation to the mic has changed, and we have no idea of what type of filtering/shape is built into the microphone which might be effecting the shapes you see in the software - especially as the mic is most likely in a slightly different position in relation to the instrument after each ligature change.
Quote:
So for some strange reason that defies logic, one or more of the factors you listed just happened to occur on that one ligature for only every other note (and the Eddie Daniels on every note) Doesn't really defy logic for me at all. Perhaps he belched or has something stuck in his teeth. Perhaps he has inadvertently weighted one side of the reed more than the other. Perhaps the reed isn't seated as squarely...or is in/out more at the tip. Perhaps his tongue is fatigued. Perhaps he is more/less relaxed during those two examples. Perhaps he is losing interest in the project and lacking focus? Perhaps his tongue is hitting the reed slightly different because of the difference in position of the reed? On and on.
For me - It doesn't defy logic, it just shows the problem with trying to measure such precise things using imprecise methods when so little is actually known.
No harm, no foul - I just can't reach the same conclusion you do. It seems (for me) to rule out too many other valid options. That's fine. As I've said before, if people all came to the same conclusion when looking at the same data, we'd all be stuck at the same problem perpetually.
I would, however (in the spirit of this thread), encourage people - especially beginners/intermediate - to avoid the gear trap to whatever extent is possible, and instead encourage them to question, self-test, gain personal understanding, and retain as much freedom from gear as they can.
I'd tell them, "Be a gear skeptic!"
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-08-10 15:08
Hi Fuzzy,
I hear what you are saying, and I can see you feel passionately about it. Thank you for trying so hard to explain it.
However, I would like to be able to discuss this with Paul as I find his insights incredibly helpful.
Would it be okay if we consider you view a "made point" and allow the discussion to continue between me and Paul and anybody else who does feel that they can draw useful insight from the analysis?
Thanks!
Best wishes,
Jennifer
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2022-08-10 16:09
Paul,
I misunderstood your original exhortation that I had not watched the video, and responded in that light. I'll leave the original response below in fairness to you.
However, I now see where the misunderstanding is and will try to address it:
You stated: Quote:
...with the only change being the notes...
In response, I tried to demonstrate that your own observations/words proved your own previous statement incorrect. By admitting ligatures changed, you have allowed for countless other changes to be added into the mix as well...thus invaliding the stance that the notes were the only variable. (Please remember, you had asked for clarification of my logic.)
Perhaps I misunderstood your statement about "...the only change being the notes..."?
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
Here's my original response before I discovered the misunderstanding - I retract it, but leave it here out of fairness to those who have already read it:
You see, my problem is that I thought we were having an honest discussion about claims you made pertaining to an off-the-cuff video posted to youtube of unknown quantity/quality where a person can see many flaws in trying to apply broader meaning due to inexactness and imprecision - lack of control.
Perhaps you are referring to a different video?
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
Post Edited (2022-08-10 19:39)
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Author: Djudy
Date: 2022-08-13 13:18
Thank you Sunnydaze for that important and sensitive comment about teens. And this goes for even younger children too, who love music without premeditation. My childhood/teen instrument purchases , thanks to my dear grandmother's generosity and understanding that allowed me to access good instruments, were and have remained an enormous part of what makes me 'me' and brought me experiences and friendships I treasure still although I remain a simple amateur. I have tried to do the same for my children and grands. Much has been written about the benefits of collective music practices on socialization, empathy, tolerance and personal well-being. And I have seen the glow in the eyes of the very young Demos orchestra participants here in Lyon , France when they receive their instruments. They are in heaven ! They deserve the encouragement of good gear and good age adapted teaching that will help achieve and fix this positive experience as central to their beings and contribute to overall social well-being.
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Author: lydian
Date: 2022-08-14 05:37
I think the notion that students need an expensive instrument to succeed is very harmful to music education. Most parents/students can't afford expensive instruments. And even those who can are wasting money because a pro instrument does NOT make you any better. Practice and commitment makes you better.
Also, very few students will or should become a professional musicians, so a pro instrument is entirely inappropriate for most of them.
The number one explanation I hear from beginners who spend a mint on equipment is, "I'm not very good, so I need all the help I can get". Pro gear is not going to make a difference between a bad player and a good player. If it did, great players would utterly fail on student gear. They don't. All a student needs is a quality instrument in working order, not a gold plated, hand made, exotic wood instrument made for the rich and famous.
Thankfully, most people are aware of this and buy instruments appropriate for the purpose, and far greater numbers of students have the opportunity to learn music.
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Author: NOLA Ken
Date: 2022-08-16 18:28
This "gear" issue with students always makes me uncomfortable because in looking back I have realized that I am one of those people for whom gear has made a big difference - both in discouraging me as a youth with little knowledge and few resources for equipment and in rekindling my passion in my later years.
I readily admit to having become a gearhead after forty-five years away from the clarinet. I am not and never was going to be a great clarinetist. But I'm having a hell of a good time discovering all of the technical fine points of the clarinet and finding out how to make it do what I want that I missed as a youth. That has taken a lot of practice and more gear than any reasonable amateur should own. Maybe if I had had good gear to start with I wouldn't have dropped out for those forty-five years. My college teacher didn't like the clarinet I entered college with, and it's still a bit of disappointment compared to others I've acquired since. It does play much better now after I learned more about its idiosyncrasies and went through a bucket full of mouthpieces to find one that would work well.
To me, the "best" gear for a student is that which inspires the player to strive for what they want to accomplish and elicits the kind of encouragement and mentoring necessary for them to achieve that. Gear is not the only factor involved in success, but in my experience gear can be important.
Fortunately school students have a much wider range of good affordable instruments and better mentoring then we did in the 60s. I don't think that a $6,000 instrument is necessarily the best investment for a young school student. But I suspect that by high school an old plastic Bundy like I had in high school, even a well-prepared one, is not going to go very far to inspire either the student, their standing with their peers, or the teacher. Thankfully there is now some very nice middle ground.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2022-08-16 19:05
NOLA Ken wrote:
> To me, the "best" gear for a student is that which inspires the
> player to strive for what they want to accomplish and elicits
> the kind of encouragement and mentoring necessary for them to
> achieve that.
> Fortunately school students have a much wider range of good
> affordable instruments and better mentoring then we did in the
> 60s. I don't think that a $6,000 instrument is necessarily the
> best investment for a young school student. But I suspect that
> by high school an old plastic Bundy like I had in high school,
> even a well-prepared one, is not going to go very far to
> inspire either the student, their standing with their peers, or
> the teacher. Thankfully there is now some very nice middle
> ground.
I agree with this. But I think there is a wide distance between searching for the "best" gear for a student to somehow maximize his or her progress and searching for equipment that is functional at the level the student's musical activities demand. An entry level student rental instrument may not provide the qualities that a high school player needs to compete for seating in a decent high school band or orchestra. But, as you say, there's a range of equipment available (that wasn't available 60 years ago) that isn't budget-busting but does make better results easier.
And there is equipment available to students (who are the only ones undiscerning enough to use it) that *do* make good playing impossible. I've had many students who came to their first lesson and produced nothing but air sounds with a little pitch mixed in. I love those first lessons because the problem is so easy to solve. A change of mouthpiece and reed (I have a drawer full of each) most often solves the pitched air problem in one fell swoop. And it doesn't really matter what mouthpiece I pull out of the drawer as long as I know which reeds in my drawer will work with it.
Karl
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