 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: dcorr222
Date: 2012-08-13 22:55
Greetings,
I have found and am refurbishing a clarinet from the 1800's and would like some help identifying it. At the current moment I can only narrow down its time-frame from 1812 when the first clarinet with leather pads was introduced to 1893 when the case was manufactured. Until it is finished I cannot determine what key it is, though I believe it is in C. Some key features:
All joints were string wrapped
The pivot screws are not screws at all, rather they are metal rods with hooks on the end
The mouthpiece is wooden
The logo appears to have some sort of flower in it from what I can tell, as well as what appears to be a long word starting with H, a word similar to Mara and a C
The right hand pinky hole (not the key) is raised off of the body of the instrument significantly
There is one needle spring on the entire instrument
flat springs are brazed onto their keys, not screwed in
It has 12 keys and 8 tone holes
The register tube is on the back of the instrument and has a metal insert that extends into the bore of the instrument all the way to the center of the bore
Unfortunately until the clarinet is out of its current repair state I don't have better pictures than the ones I am providing. The label on the clarinet is worn off to the stage where it is unintelligible aside from the information above and I cannot seem to get a clear picture of what is there.
Any advise on the rather large crack in the bell would also be appreciated. The ring on the bottom of the bell is formed around the bell and will not come off. It would be nice to maintain all of the original parts of the clarinet but I think that bell will need replaced.
Thank you for your time
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2012-08-14 00:03
Can you post a picture? Also leather square pads were used on clarinets from the time they were invented back in the early 18C. Chalumeaux also used leather for the two keys.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Mark Charette ★2017
Date: 2012-08-14 00:15
After typing your post cluck Add Attachments, add the pics, and post. Make sure the pics at about a megabyte or so max.
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Author: dcorr222
Date: 2012-08-14 00:20
My problem was the size of the pictures, thank you.
Sorry about the quality of the pictures, the camera I am using has condensation on the lens.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2012-08-14 14:36
I'm not sure what it would play like, but physically that clarinet would restore beautifully. I wouldn't replace the bell, that is quite easily fixable. I suspect the ligature might be more recent than the rest of the instrument.
Tony F.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-08-14 16:00
When were the ring keys for RH 2 and 3 (or 'brille') introduced?
I think it was after 1850. This clarinet has them fitted, so that would at least give an idea of the earliest possible date it was made.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: dcorr222
Date: 2012-08-15 02:45
From what I have read the key rings came about in the late 1830's to mid 1850's when Buffet and Klose began work on improving the design. The ligature doesn't match the rest of the instrument at all and I agree with Tony that it probably came as a later addition. The simplicity of the instrument is what is hanging me up on a date though, at the same time that tone hole rings were being introduced it seems that needle springs were rising in number rapidly, the same Buffet-Klose team which introduced them I believe increased needles from four to eleven, much higher than my measly one spring.
Any ideas on how I should repair the bell? I have been doing repairs for over two years and have repaired thinner cracks but this one is stumping me, it extends down the entire length of the bell and the bell end piece is formed over the wood by a spinning process I believe, there is no way to conceivably take it off.
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Author: dcorr222
Date: 2012-08-15 02:48
Oh, and the clarinet plays quite well without the keys on and with a hand-made reed, when I cover several tone holes with tape I can play into the third octave and a slightly out of tune F (in terms of fingerings) scale. I should get the pads I need to repair it fully in the next few days, in the mean time I am polishing the keys. To stay true to the age of the instrument I have wrapped the tenons in string, a long process however they seal quite nicely when adjusted properly and have slippery elm bark cork grease applied.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2012-08-15 07:07
With regard to the bell crack, consider this. Carefully clean the crack, removing debris, old wood fibres, etc. Wash it out with alcohol to remove any oil or grease. Leave the bell ring in place. Using something like modelling clay, which air hardens after shaping, make a cast of an undamaged section of the inside of the bell. It need only be wide enough to cover the area of the crack. Line the bell with something like gladwrap, saran wrap or plumbers teflon tape before making the cast, to prevent sticking.
When the cast is dry (might take a couple of days), remove it and cover the moulded surface with teflon tape. Replace it in the bell, rotating it round the inside of the bell to cover the crack and secure it in place. A plug of foam packing works well for this purpose. This will give you the inner profile of the bell and will act as a mold.
Follow the same procedure on the outside of the bell, using an undamaged section to produce a mold. Before placing it over the crack, cut a hole in the upper, or mouthpiece, end to allow epoxy to be poured into the crack. Mix epoxy such as full-strength Araldite, adding powdered grenadilla to give colour to suit. I keep a couple of old joints to provide wood dust in several colours. A few seconds with a sanding disc will provide enough for the job.
Do the mixing in a plastic cup and then float the cup in hot water for a minute or two. This will thin the epoxy to a consistency where it may be poured. Carefully pour the epoxy-wood mix into the hole you cut into the mould for the outside of the bell and allow to cure. Remove the inner and outer molds and do the final shaping with sandpaper as necessary. Finally, polish with 1200 wet and dry.
There are other methods which will work just as well, but this method is one that I have used with excellent results. Good luck.
Tony F.
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Author: chris moffatt
Date: 2012-08-15 13:50
I believe that the 'Brille' was used on oboes by Triebert around 1840 and Sax used it on a clarinet about that time. The use of the pins and the style of some of the keys make it likely that this instrument hails from central Europe. I've never seen the F key on the left side as it is here.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-08-15 14:00
I've seen a boxwood C clarinet of a similar era with an original brass screw ligature (matching the brass keys) and either a lead or tin mouthpiece cap, so I think metal ligatures as we know them have been in use for a very long time.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: dcorr222
Date: 2012-08-15 14:53
Thank you for the advise on the repair Tony, unfortunately I don't have any clarinet pieces I can salvage dust from at the moment, up until now I have only worked on clarinets where I could completely fix them without material removal, so broken tenon joints is on my list after I get a lathe. I may look at a few of my barrels I have laying around though, I remember one of them I was wary about the condition, I seem to remember some damage.
About the ligature: from what I have read the modern metal ligature came into being about the same time as Müller was creating the 12/13 keyed clarinet so I believe they have been around since the early 1800's. I am unsure about the ligature included with this clarinet though, it just seems too poor of quality to match the instrument, though I may be wrong there. Chris's boxwood clarinet with a tin mouthpiece cap matches the material my cap and ligature seem to be made of.
Yesterday several reeds fell out of the case, they were quite disgusting in appearance but appear to be hand carved as opposed to machine made.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2012-08-15 16:03
I got a couple of old joints from a local music tech. They were in his junk box and I think I gave him about $5 for them. They were far beyond repair, but all I wanted was the wood, so it was a good buy.
Do you know what key the instrument is in? I recently restored an Albert system C clarinet that's a bit more recent than yours. If you're not sure, measure the clarinet from bell ring to mouthpiece tip. A C clarinet will be roughly 57.5 Cm (22 3/4 inches), a Bb will be about 67Cm (26 1/2 inches) and an Eb about 49Cm (19 1/4 inches).
I may be wrong in my comments about the ligature, it may well be an original.
Tony F.
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Author: dcorr222
Date: 2012-08-15 16:24
I will have to look ask at some of the local repair shops in town to see if they have any junk pieces, or possibly a local woodworking shop. Tony, the clarinet is 21 3/4 (~55.5 cm) long and when I had it playing with tape I was getting weird results though I cannot be sure until I get the keys on. It is throwing me that the instrument has several highly prominent C's on it (the upper and lower joints, the bell and the barrel all have a C under the label, which I still cannot distinguish.) Could it possibly be in D?
I may be beginning to prefer the string wrapped tenon joints to my normal cork joints. They seal quite well when done properly, though I have no idea how long they will last and wrapping them takes half of an age.
Dan C.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-08-15 17:13
It's most likely high pitch C (452Hz) - so it's around a quarter tone sharp compared to modern instruments built to 440-442Hz.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: dcorr222
Date: 2012-08-15 17:18
Interesting, I can't wait to get pads on it and test if it is a high pitch. Does anyone have somewhere where I could look at an array of old clarinet labels, if I run into the complete version of my label I could make an educated guess on the brand from that?
Pads will arrive in the next two days or so, past that it is polishing the bottom set of keys (the top joint is done) and to repair the bell if I can though I have found at least 3 long cracks (ones that thin glue will fix) aside from the very large one seen in the pictures. The bell is in pretty rough shape and I not sure how concentric it is anymore.
Dan C.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-08-15 17:32
You could block up the toneholes that are otherwise closed with keys/pads with blu-tack to get an idea what the tuning and pitch is like. The B and F# will be on the low side, but you'll be able to check most of a G, C or D Major scale to check the pitch.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: dcorr222
Date: 2012-08-17 13:31
I went to a local repair shop and just asked for some dust and paid a few dollars for a good amount. I have pads and the instrument should be done by Saturday. I have been busy so I still have not tested the pitch of the instrument.
Dan
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