 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-11-06 19:50
Ok, you've been warned. I do though promise to be sensitive and to the best extent I can, reveal my biases.
My biases:
Those who know me would describe me as left of center politically. I only bring this up on a clarinet board because it's relevant (and in fairness necessary to reveal) based on the topic that follows. This begs the question of just how far left of center am I.
Let's just say that while I support affirmative programs that give previously and currently disenfranchised groups of people (and I do believe with all my heart that they exist) a leg up, I also believe such programs need clearly defined metrics so that they do not exist in perpetuity, and can be regulated. After all, every program that empowers one group over another runs the risk of disenfranchising those not benefitted by such programs: people often not responsible for the discrimination that inspired the creation of such programs in the first place.
I respect progressive's views; I am not one. By no means am I a conservative either, much that I appreciate that there is more than my way to run a country, and all voices should be heard.
Further biases. As someone not financially worried, I volunteer at an arts magnet school in a financially challenged area. A say this neither to brag or secure pats on the back, but rather, as a segue into my thoughts.
The fine arts, especially in the US, is inherently, if not also unintentionally vastly skewed in favor of the haves over the have nots. The costs of instruments, lessons, and materials, even time not spent on a near full time after school jobs, that can rather be focused on musical study: all favor those WITH favor. I support programs that pay these costs so that the "huddled masses" can afford these things in an effort to better level the classical musician playing field with respect to race.
But that said, not for a second do I think anything but blind audition raw talent should be the metric upon which employment in this field is based. A situation in which a talented minority was discriminated against would infuriate me. But so too would a situation in which a less talented player was given employment as a performer for any reason, including nepotism, race, etc.
This is not my position if most areas of employment. I firmly believe in aggressive hiring and on the job training/mentoring. But in the professional orchestra, when its time for the clarinet (or french horn, or whatever) solo, nobody can cover for you, monitor your work and correct you/prevent you from serious blunder.
I am for affirmative programs that make the audition process more competitive with respect to race. I have zero tolerance for affirmative programs in the audition process itself, which must be color blind. I fully support orchestral mentoring programs, I am just dead set against anyone but the most talented, in blind auditions, getting the job.
What say you?
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-06 20:46
SecondTry - I can't imagine that you have racist leanings in any way, and I'm sure you want to see the very best for women and people of ethnic minorities succeeding in music. I'm sure you want to see their talent brought to the fore, and the voice of their demographic heard in the music world.
Rather than arguing against what is happening now - would you perhaps like to lay out a positive vision of what you think should happen? You say that you are all in favour of the conditions being made for minority groups to attain great skill in music.
What do you think should be done in a really practical way, to make sure that that can happen? What do you think would help to set the conditions so that when those people arrive at their blind audition, they can knock our socks clean off with their talent and wonderful performances?
I think there must be many people on this forum, perhaps lurkers as well as frequent posters, who are from minority ethnic groups. I think it's incredibly important that they feel condfident to give their thoughts on this thread now that you have raised the subject and that the tone of the discussion should be respectful so that they feel safe to do that.
Sorry to barrel in like this, but I've spent several decades as a woman in science, where we have all the same problems. I realise how fraught this can be, and I would be glad to help keep the discussion positive for the young musicians coming through.
Thanks, Jen
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-11-06 22:20
First off, something I forgot to mention, my opening post has NOTHING to do with any recent events in news where orchestral audition results have met the disapproval of any group believing that race played a role.
My discussions are academic....hypothetical.
SunnyDaze wrote:
> SecondTry - I can't imagine that you have racist leanings in
> any way, and I'm sure you want to see the very best for women
> and people of ethnic minorities succeeding in music. I'm sure
> you want to see their talent brought to the fore, and the voice
> of their demographic heard in the music world.
Jen: I know you mean well when you say this and thank you, but I wish to "stand on the head of a pin here" and correct you, solely for purposes of making a point to your otherwise lovely thought.
I do have racist leanings. Specifically, I feel that injustices have been served upon certain groups of people in many walks of life, not the least being opportunity in classical music, and support endeavors--the specifics of which I acknowledge that you seek--involving policy, as well as my time and money, to right these wrongs.
But of course in the sense that I wrote: that I seek a level playing surface, and agree with and thank you for.
>
> Rather than arguing against what is happening now - would you
> perhaps like to lay out a positive vision of what you think
> should happen?
I don't have all the answers--not even most. I do believe though that the whole thing begins with 2 things: the family and the schools, out of which plans form, and money is raised. I believe in magnet schools for the arts, instruments and lessons provided gratis, and stipends to keep talented minorities spending more time in front of the music stand than trying to make money flipping burgers. I believe in sister programs between schools in affluent communities and those which are not.
I know---easier said than done. And I am not blind to the plight of the ordinary middle class family, not in a protected class, that has 3 jobs among 2 parents, no less invested in the struggle to give their kids more opportunity than they had.
You say that you are all in favour of the
> conditions being made for minority groups to attain great skill
> in music.
>
> What do you think should be done in a really practical way, to
> make sure that that can happen? What do you think would help to
> set the conditions so that when those people arrive at their
> blind audition, they can knock our socks clean off with their
> talent and wonderful performances?
>
> I think there must be many people on this forum, perhaps
> lurkers as well as frequent posters, who are from minority
> ethnic groups. I think it's incredibly important that they feel
> condfident to give their thoughts on this thread now that you
> have raised the subject and that the tone of the discussion
> should be respectful so that they feel safe to do that.
I whole heartedly concur. My life experiences are not theirs. I discuss from an admitted point of ignorance that light can only be shined on by those who have walked such paths. I'd love to hear about their struggles, what they think works/worked or doesn't. I aspire to a world of Anthony McGills, where nobody nowhere can deny an artist's gift, where race played no role in employment outcome, by someone that just happens to be a member of a certain racially discriminated class.
>
> Sorry to barrel in like this, but I've spent several decades as
> a woman in science, where we have all the same problems.
I'm glad you raise this. I say this because in fairness it is necessary to point out that while certain classes of people as a group have faced historically discriminatory practices that need to be changed, it is also fair to say that nobody rose to the ranks of orchestra professional, regardless of background, without enormous work.
That said, I acknowledge the struggles you faced as a woman in what was and still larger is a a man's discipline. I also thank you for being a trail blazer that has made it easier for the woman that came after you.
> realise how fraught this can be, and I would be glad to help
> keep the discussion positive for the young musicians coming
> through.
>
> Thanks, Jen
And yet despite this, I remain resolved in the idea that certain occupations do not have the luxury of employing anything but the best people at what they do. There is no "3 second delay" on live orchestral music where some sub par player, who habitually misses solos, can be saved by a more experienced player waiting in the wings. This is not a corporate environment where work product can be reviewed prior to distribution, where corrections and a learning process can occur.
"Affirmative action in leveling the playing field of opportunity, but not affirmative action in orchestral hiring, rather, "blind, best player wins" competition."
It is devastating enough to lose an audition fairly.
Conflict of interest statement: music is just a hobby for me. I have no 1st hand war stories about inequity in auditions to speak of.
Post Edited (2021-11-06 22:22)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-06 23:27
Hi Dan,
Can you maybe give us some idea of what those articles say? They are behind a paywall.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-06 23:30
SecondTry -
I'm slightly chuckling at your point, because I have shockingly bad musical timing, and always come in late, if at all. That is why I really like playing alone in my hallway.
Sorry, I should take it seriously though. You're quite right obviously. I mean if someone can't actually play in time with an orchestra then presumably they wouldn't be hired, would they?
But presumably they don't hire people who can't make a competent entry do they?
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-11-07 01:47
Dan:
I don't know my NYT login. I have read these articles in paper form as a subscriber. I don't remember them put do have a bit to the point, if not snide answer to their respective titles.
"To Make Orchestras More Diverse, End Blind Auditions."
Funny, I thought curtains were there to promote fairness. Still more, what makes people think that removing curtains will promote diversity if the auditioners have, express or unknown minority racial biases? And what if we can't yet find diversity of equal talent, not because race has anything to do with talent, but because race is a fair surrogate for opportunity, which is lacking, and which relates to talent?
Should we promote diversity over a pure talent metric? Is that fair/best/the right place? Is the job the place in the process to even the playing surface, or is it the opportunity that comes prior? How might a more talented player, whose devoted their life to their craft feel about getting bumped by a inferior player based on race? What might that do to orchestra's moral? How might the favored player feel knowing their skin color helped get them a job, fearing resentment?
"How to Bring Racial Equity to Auditions"
By bringing racial equity to musical opportunity....It is the only way IMHO that doesn't promote bad feelings.
Farabout: how cares
Musicians, minorities, society, non protect class individuals trying to make ends meet without such handouts, policy makers, academics, politicians, you name it.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-07 02:10
Here's a question:
I wonder where we would get to if we imagine a world in which white people had been captured and sold in their millions as slaves in Africa. If we image that European and North American culture had suffered terribly, taking the feet from the whole white race and causing the development of those countries' structures to fall behind. We could then imagine that the medical needs of white people had never been fully explored in the thriving and succesful continent of Africa because they were a minority race. As a consequence white people would struggle to get good medical care, and trust in doctors would be low. This would cause further trouble for many white families, who already had a tough run in life.
Imagine that we, ourselves, were minority white people in a successful African continent, struggling to get promoted in their musical community. Perhaps we are deparately wishing that we could find a voice and an audience for our under-appreciated European music, instead of trying to just fit into African music. I wonder if we could think about how that would feel?
Do you think we would appreciate, in our poverty, being given cash handouts to try and make ourselves fit into African culture better? Further - do you think we would appreciate being given blind auditions so that people wouldn't judge us for being secretly white, but could hear our talent and imagine that we are black, at least until the curtain goes back?
To be honest, I'm not sure we would.
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Author: brycon
Date: 2021-11-07 02:16
Quote:
Funny, I thought curtains were there to promote fairness.
Are curtains up for the entire audition process?
Quote:
Should we promote diversity over a pure talent metric?
Is it an either/or? Moreover, is pure "talent" the only metric by which auditions are currently decided? How does one measure talent? Playing with precise technique, rhythm, and intonation? Everyone advancing out of the prelims can do those things.
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Author: Dan Oberlin ★2017
Date: 2021-11-07 03:04
The first article is an op-ed piece by Anthony Tommasini, chief NYT music critic. He starts out with the hisory of blind auditions at the NYPhil, where the impetus for their implemenation was an accusation of racial discrimination in that group's hiring practices (from 1969). He notes that blind auditions have been transformative in getting more women into orchestras, that blind auditions have "... changed the face of American orchestras. But not enough." He notes that the number of black players in the NYPhil is today what it was in 1969 (one, with that one being Anthony McGill). Some quotes:
"If the musicians onstage are going to better reflect the diversity of the communities they serve, the audition process has to be altered."
"Blind auditions are built on an appealing premise of pure meritocracy ... . But ask anyone in the field, and you'll learn that over the past century ... there has come to be remarkably little difference between players at the top tier."
"It's like an elite college facing a sea of applicants with straight A's and perfect test scores. Such a school can move past those marks, embrace diversity as a social virtue and assemble a freshman class that advances other values along with academic achievement."
Tomassini notes that McGill is "more ambivalent about blind auditions than I am." But quotes McGill: "representation matters more than people know" "Is slow and steady fast enough? The world has changed around us."
The second article is a collection of responses to Tomassini's article, interviews done by by Zachary Woole and Joshua Barone. Here is (only) a sampling:
Leonard Slatkin: "If a person of color advances to the final round, I would think that one would hopefully in this day and age say that these are players of equal capabilities and maybe it should fall to someone who more represents what society is looking for."
Lina Gonzalez-Granados (Conductor): "When people see a name like mine and they have a high aversion to risk, then already I am not competing on the same level as everyone else. So getting rid of the audition screen is useless unless we take care of other steps. I believe in the power of quotas ... ."
Max Raimi (Violist, CSO): "It's a blunt instrument we're using now, but on the whole it works pretty well. The people who play at the highest level get jobs, and the people who get jobs play at the highest level." Regarding the pipeline of applicants: "It seems to me that if we are addressing these issues at the level of orchestra auditions, we're clipping the leaves when the roots are rotten."
If "we had six more in the Chicago Symphony, I am not convinced what difference that is going to make in our society and how we are perceived in the community."
Weston Sprott, Alex Laing, Joy Payton-Stevens, Titus Underwood (Black musicians from the Met Orchestra and the Phoenix, Seattle, and Nashville Symphonies): "... we want to address a favorite myth about American orchestras: that auditions have been blind "'since the 1970's."' This simply isn't true."
"The reason there aren't more Black artists in orchestras isn't blind auditions. The reason is racism."
They argue that the audition process (with its trial weeks, invite-only auditions, occasional unsreened final rounds) is often not really blind.
"Many Black artists ... have fought for a fully screened audition process precisely because we know that racism in orchestras is real."
Aubrey Bergauer (arts administrator): There are four areas we could do differently:
(1) "Whom we invite and recruit ... ." " ... often black and brown people are left out of those invitations."
(2) Subs are often invited and this often leaves out people of color.
(3) "Leave the screen up all the way through the finals, period."
(4) "If we're trying to redesign the process, ask the people who are being marginalized what we should do. Not one Black person I have spoken to on this topic thinks we should do away with blind auditions."
Afa Dworkin (President and artistic director of the Sphinx Organization) and Anthony McGill:
(1) "We cannot fix what we do not measure ... ." "... it is important to know how many black and Latinx musicians audition today, and why."
(2) "We are what we repeatedly play." "Commit 15% of your subscription series repertoire to Black and Latinx composers, for the next decade."
(3)"Allocate 15% of your budget toward addressing systemic racism for the next 10 years" if we are to expect "a different result".
(4) "Work with the National Alliance for Audition Support and music schools to ensure a minimum of 25% representation at every audition, or the search must continue."
(5) "Let's have a transparent definition of what is needed of a musician to join and be tenured in a reimagined collective of artists."
Edward Yim (President, American Composers Orchestra): "... I think orchestras need to make a more concrete commitment to racial diversity." In addition to competence, we should ask of the successful applicant "Do they fit the culture of our orchestra?"
Thomas Wilkins (Conductor): "Perhaps you could have a system where you were going to deliberately hire on an alternating basis. So for this audition, I'm looking for the best female candidate I can find; on the next, I'm looking for the best candidate of color I can find; on the next, for the best player, period."
Post Edited (2021-11-07 19:10)
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-11-07 07:11
Upon reflection, in a sea of virtuosic final candidates for a job, where ability to truly say one player is more talented than the other is absent, sure, why not promote ethnic diversity in this case. Nobody got beat out in this situation by an inferior player based on race.
But where talent differentials can be noted by auditioners, I believe it presents to path of least problems to go with the most talented.
My focus lies on diversifying that talent pool!
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-07 09:36
Just as a datapoint - I desperately wanted to be a musician when I was a child, but I abandoned that ambition, because, in the orchestra that I regularly saw as a pre-schooler, all the visible faces were old white men.
I think if you want to see diversity in talent coming up through from the younger generations, you need to show today's children that there is a real chance for them at the highest levels of the profession. They need to see faces like theirs in your orchesta.
If you have a problem with putting those faces there, when "over the past century ... there has come to be remarkably little difference between players at the top tier." then I think you need to examine very carefully why that is.
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Author: Michael E. Shultz
Date: 2021-11-07 15:50
I think a much bigger problem is the trend toward only teaching subjects that are on the standardized tests, at the expense of everything else. The No Child Left Behind Act must bear a lot of the responsibility. It has been referred to by one poster here as "No School Left Standing".
In addition to the fine arts, shop, home economics, driver's education, and work-study programs have all been casualties of this drive to only teach what's on the test. Children should be exposed to as many different activities as possible. The time to specialize is at the Master's degree level.
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read."
Groucho Marx
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-07 17:29
Hi Michael,
I think that is very true here in the UK too. Our kids have national exams three or four times in primary school, with the results used to put the schools in a league table that is published in the newspapers. The schools get so stressed about it that many non-core subjects get squeezed out.
In my son's school, after he was in year 4 (age 8), all musical performance and teaching was dropped entirely, which seemed bonkers to me. They previously had weekly class recorder lessons and a once-a-year music assembly where kids could volunteer to perform on their instruments, but all that was cancelled.
When you take into account that nobody here goes to church either, that means that our kids are literally never seeing what a musical stave looks like. They don't know what musical notes look like, unless they come from a family where they are home schooled in it, or have private lessons.
A large part of why I'm on this forum is because I'm having to do all my son's music teaching at home, and he's a fast learner, so I'm having to work hard to keep ahead of him. I have no idea how other families manage if the parents don't have time.
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2021-11-07 19:24
How does one know when the appropriate diversity has been reached? And, once satisfied, does the music sound better?
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-07 20:03
I think the hope is that the proportion of women and ethnic minorities in orchestras should be approximately they same the proportion in society.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2021-11-07 20:25
Of course, there's still the problem of getting the audience to reflect the same balanced diversity.
To open a different can of worms, is this discussion specific to "classical" music or even more narrowly to symphony orchestras? Is music performance at a more generic level a whole different topic? In some genres the demographic among both performers and audiences is very different.
Karl
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-07 21:21
Hi Karl,
I was thinking that too. It's only very recently that I plucked up the courage to start going to see our local philharmonic orchestra regularly, and I only feel that I have permission to go because I realised that two of my friends play in it. I think the criteria for being a member of the audience for these orchestras are pretty weird too.
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Author: jim sclater
Date: 2021-11-08 17:37
This last post from SunnyDaze puzzles me. Just purchase a ticket and go to the concert; you don't need "courage" to do this. The orchestra management will be happy to sell the ticket and the musicians will be happy to have you in the audience. The "criteria" for being a member of the audience is your interest and your ability to purchase a ticket.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-08 18:27
LOL! Yes I know what you mean Jim. I don't feel like that at all, and I would guess I am not alone in that.
I only go to see one orchestra regularly, and I only feel I can go there because two of my friends play in it and I asked permission. Twice. From both of them.
I think a lot of people probaby feel like they aren't qualified to show up to a symphony orchestra performance.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-11-08 21:44
kdk wrote:
> Of course, there's still the problem of getting the audience to
> reflect the same balanced diversity.
>
> To open a different can of worms, is this discussion specific
> to "classical" music or even more narrowly to symphony
> orchestras? Is music performance at a more generic level a
> whole different topic? In some genres the demographic among
> both performers and audiences is very different.
>
> Karl
I think that diversity in audience is, all other things equal, more likely to happen when the group performing has players who are members of those diverse groups.
This, IMHO, and to "beat a dead horse" best comes in leveling the opportunity playing field, not by allowing any consideration of race in hiring unless choosing a player from such poorly represented racial backgrounds among an equally talented pool of players.
Not that you say otherwise sir, but if we incentivized audience diversity through say ticket prices, or even, taken to its extreme, paid people of certain racial groups to attend concerts, that alone won't change roster diversity without commensurate changes in the talent pool with respect to race as well.
I could be wrong, but the only way I see such diversity happening fairly is opportunity equity, which will have to result in orchestras better reflecting society makeup (unless someone subscribes to an insane notion that some classes of people are inherently better at music than others) and where audience members are motivated to attend in part by being able to see themselves reflected back racially (role models of their own background) in those they (see and) hear.
Sadly, this takes time and money, pushing against a system and status quo, but is doable and worth the effort.
I am curious. Does anyone here think affirmative action in orchestral hiring, even if it comes at the expense of favoring what may be a less talented musician, an, all things considered, better proposition? I'd love to hear your thoughts.
I'm just afraid that given the level of devotion that players must give to get to a level of play consistent with hiring, that to be turned away for any reason other than their musicianship would create an untenable situation among the playing ranks.
Maybe I am wrong.
Post Edited (2021-11-08 21:50)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2021-11-08 22:06
SecondTry wrote:
> kdk wrote:
>
> I think that diversity in audience is, all other things equal,
> more likely to happen when the group performing has players who
> are members of those diverse groups.
Sure. They're two sides of the same coin.
>
> Not that you say otherwise sir, but if we incentivized audience
> diversity through say ticket prices, or even, taken to its
> extreme, paid people of certain racial groups to attend
> concerts, that alone won't change roster diversity without
> commensurate changes in the talent pool with respect to race as
> well.
No, it doesn't seem to. Widening the audience involves a much more complex set of issues that include supporting meaningful music exposure and instruction in the schools. We don't disagree.
Karl
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-08 22:59
One of my friends runs a scheme where they take promising African-Carribean ethnicity kids (sorry if that is the wrong way of saying it) from state schools and bring them to Cambridge University for a taster course before they are due to apply for University. Experience has shown that once these kids have come and seen that it is a nice place to be, and then they are more likely to apply. A large part of the problem of getting ethnic minorities into the top flight Universities has been that those kids don't apply in the first place, so my friend's course is really making a big impact.
I wonder if this is something that would translate well to orchestras? For example, could there be a subsidised programme to bring ethnic minority school kids to be audience members in a symphony orchestra performance? Even if they don't become musicians, they might become regular audience members, and that would be a step in the right direction. It could even be all kids from state schools, because I think that would be positive for everybody.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2021-11-14 21:56
I still remember the days when blind auditions began to be the norm, it took about a decade for ALL orchestras to confirm. In those days women were told not to wear heals because the sound of here walking can give it away. I Agree with everything you said and I'm happy there are programs in some places that help minorities have a chance to learn an instrument. Baltimore has a program sponsored by the Baltimore Symphony that has grown from a single school to many and my wife used to teach instrumental music in the city.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-14 22:04
Thinking about it more, I've realised that actually access to instrumental teaching is very difficult for all children here, not just ethnic minorities. When I was a kid we all got recorder lessons, but that is gone now here.
The other thing I would say is that kids can see that there is very little money in music, and I think that does put them off. I see huge numbers of people of different ethnicities in medical jobs, which have better job security and better pay. I wonder if part of the problem is just that music is such a tenuous source of financial security. I know my son looked at it as a career, saw there was no security in it and walked away from that idea.
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Author: Jarmo Hyvakko
Date: 2021-11-15 10:32
Well, an european wellfare society tries to solve these kinds of problems so, that it collects taxes far more than i have understood is being done in the US. With that money the society provides free, or very low cost benefits for everyone: health care, education etc etc. One part of that is a music school system, where playing an instrument is relatively cheap. But that is a world where even the right wing parties are further left than your democratic party. Although of course those parties are continuosly nagging how the wellfare society is too expensive...
The sad truth is that the hands of the society must reach the pockets where the money is and that means progressive taxing.
But the moral key question is: a child can not choose his parents, wealth, ethnicity among others. Should we try to make the world such, that every child has equal possibilities to progress? And in the end of the day have equal chances even in a blind audition!
Jarmo Hyvakko, Principal Clarinet, Tampere Philharmonic, Finland
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-11-15 16:35
Jarmo - I completely agree.
The world seems a very unequal place just now, and though in the UK we do have a welfare state and supposedly progressive taxation, we are not doing nearly as well as we should. I think that the glocal economy has made progressive taxation very difficult, and we have not yet got to grips with that.
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