 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: mikeW
Date: 2006-11-30 21:30
Relative to most other woodwinds, including flute, clarinet and sax, the location of the C and Eb keys are reversed on the oboe. What is the particular reason for this, as it is in some sense counterintuitive.
Thanks,
Mike
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Author: Craig Matovich
Date: 2006-11-30 22:14
I think so we have both right and left-hand fingering options in the 1st and 2nd octave for E-flat (and F)
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Author: mikeW
Date: 2006-11-30 22:32
Sorry, I was referring only to the physical layout of the keywork operating the right-hand low C and Eb keys.
Post Edited (2006-11-30 22:33)
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Author: mosh
Date: 2006-11-30 23:47
Interesting topic,
I think there could be at least 3 reasons:
#1 Looking at Baroque oboes and Recorders could led the way in explaining this. The eb on a Baroque oboe is also located to the side ( like modern oboe) in comparison to the C. So perhaps the answer is tradition.
#2 Another answer could simply be acoustics of a conical bore ? If we use the flute as an example with the eb first then the C after ( in the key set up), this works due to the fact it is a cylindrical bore not Conical ??
#3 The third option is could be due to the modern placement of the c# key and the relation to the low C key. I mean low c-c# is one of the big problems when playing down there and perhaps turned around it would be almost impossible ??
Any Oboe makers out there on the discussion board whish to clarify ?
Just some thoughts.
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2006-12-01 02:05
Hm... don't other musicians say us oboists have everything backwards? Or maybe they just say that to me...
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Author: sylvangale
Date: 2006-12-01 07:23
The oboe you seek is the Boehm oboe, like the Boehm system flute, clarinet, and sax... you don't see it anymore because other keywork systems won out on the oboe's evolutionary path.
IDRS article -
The Further Development and Demise of the Boehm Oboe:
http://idrs2.colorado.edu/pubidrs2/dr26.2/37.pdf
Regards,
Stephen
♫ Stephen K.
Post Edited (2006-12-01 07:25)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-12-01 08:05
It's one of those things that has remained through time, the C key touch being above the Eb key. As oboes have evolved, so too has the amount of keys that have been added, and the placings of the original keys has remained relatively the same - so the C key and Eb key still remain in a similar place. Same with bassoons - the F key touch is above the Ab key touch.
If you look at the history of the development of the oboe from the 2 (or 3) key Baroque to the modern day Gillet Conservatoire, you'll see how things have evolved to what they are now.
Baroque flutes only had the one key for Eb, and the later 8-key Flutes have always had the Eb key above the C# and C keys - these (and the G# key) have remained relatively in the same positions, even after Boehm's redesign and subsequent closed G# key set-up.
German and Oehler system clarinets have evolved from the 5-key clarinets, but Boehm system clarnets are a complete redesign (though nothing to do with Boehm himself - but the work of Klose and Buffet).
Uebel and several other companies made sax system oboes, so along with the Boehm system oboe these were a complete departure from the usual oboe keywork.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repairer
Single and Double Reed Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2006-12-01 08:35
Nowadays the new Royals with the low A use the left-hand thumb for the low A. The thing weighs a ton.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-12-01 09:40
Just as well it isn't the right thumb that has the low A key as on Heckelphones - but Heckelphones are supported by the floor peg so weight isn't an issue there.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repairer
Single and Double Reed Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: d-oboe
Date: 2006-12-01 19:01
Consider that the C-major scale was/is the most "common" scale. It would make sense to have that key easier to reach, because it would be used more.
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Author: mikeW
Date: 2006-12-01 19:08
Thanks for the link. It's interesting that the various types of oboes apparently sound quite different. I wonder what, if any, effect the keywork has on the quality of the sound, as opposed to differences in the bore or size and cutting of the tone holes.
Thanks again,
Mike
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2006-12-02 08:16
... what i want to know is, how come a higher pitched note, low C#, opens its vent lower down the pipe than low C?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-12-02 09:18
Low Bb issues through the bell mouth (and bell vent),
Low B issues through the bell key tonehole,
Low C issues through the tonehole covered by the low B key,
Low C# issues through the C# tonehole,
Low D issues through the tonehole covered by the C key,
Eb issues through the Eb tonehole.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repairer
Single and Double Reed Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2006-12-03 02:09
... lol, thanks ChrisP for patiently and thoroughly explaining that to me ... that makes sense, of course notes sound through OPEN holes, not closed ones, thunka thunka ma chunka wood (how resonant is it ???)
... interesting this C/Eb topic came up, my band director commented recently that oboe has peculiar fingering setup compared to other wind instruments, and not having learned any other covered key instruments i was baffled by that remark, oboe seems OK key setup to me, i mean after coming off recorder, oboe is cake!
are B-flat / E-flat transposing instrument key positions any easier to play in more sharps with their key setups, relatively speaking, than playing 4, 5 or more flats on concert C oboe ?!
What do converts to oboe from other instruments think about this?
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2006-12-03 03:16
<< are B-flat / E-flat transposing instrument key positions any easier to play in more sharps with their key setups, relatively speaking, than playing 4, 5 or more flats on concert C oboe ?! >>
vb --
IMHO, oboe fingerings are easier than clarinet fingerings, especially in reference to the pinky keys (which are the keys under discussion here).
For one thing, the clarinet has FOUR (count 'em) right hand pinkies, and either three or four left hand pinkies (depending on whether your instrument has the left Eb or not). The standard-issue conservatoire oboe has just three for the right hand, and then four plus the G# key for the left hand. (Of course, some oboes just have two for the left hand, but we don't play on those, do we?)
I find navigating the right hand oboe key cluster to be definitely easier than the clarinet right hand. Left hand oboe cluster has it's challenges, but once you get the feel, is certainly not more difficult, and perhaps easier, than clarinet left hand. Oboe trill keys are also easier to deal with, IMO, than clarinet trills.
One of the big differences between oboe and clarinet fingerings is that the clarinet has alternate keys for just about everything -- two Bs, two Cs, two C#s, and sometimes even two Ebs. You really do have to master them all if you want to play smoothly in keys with lots of sharps or flats. There are times that I wish the oboe had this flexibility, but more often, I am glad that I DON'T have to deal with that anymore. I have small hands, and generally felt like I was "fighting" the clarinet -- it felt too big for me.
Just don't talk to me about the banana key. What's up with that, anyway? My teacher says she has used it possibly ONCE in her entire symphonic and chamber career. My weensy little fingers can't reach it.
Susan
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Author: DressedToKill
Date: 2006-12-03 04:57
"and either three or four left hand pinkies (depending on whether your instrument has the left Eb or not)"
It's actually either four or five, depending on whether you have the aux Eb/Ab...there's the C#/G#, the "long" B/E and F#/C#, and the F/C behind the long keys; five if you have the Eb/Ab key. Much like the oboe, in fact!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-12-03 09:29
One thing I'd have fitted if I ever decide to have a set of oboes made for me is a LH C# key - then I'd be on par with both clarinet and sax.
Or just make myself a set of sax system instruments (up to high F# or even G - making Ravel and Saint-Saens a doddle!) - considering how easy saxes are at getting around for me there's no reason why I shouldn't make life easier and build my own (oboe, d'amore and cor - why stop there? Let's have a bass oboe as well!), though that will mean I'll only have the reed to blame!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repairer
Single and Double Reed Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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