 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: belle
Date: 2021-06-01 06:00
I have an observation leading to my question.... all top oboe players seem to have thin lips. I initial thought that playing the oboe might tone the facial muscles differently and cause thinner lips, but I think now after decades of on/off playing but initially intense for 5 years through university, perhaps it's that people with thinner lips have the advantage of not having extra (often substantial) cushioning that the embouchure muscles have to negotiate. They can therefore practise for longer and are therefore the ones that make it professionally.
I've come to this theory through observation, but also from wondering why I myself have very poor (15-30mins) endurance after YEARS of practise under a teacher and then professor teacher (who also had thin lips).
I don't play on reeds that are too hard... just Soft-Medium soft European or Medium Soft-Medium American. But I wish I could play on a harder reed to get a bigger sound. I train my embouchure with an old reed when I don't practise on the instrument. When I tire, I feel my bottom teeth dig into the inside area of under my lower lip line. There is a substantial chunk of flesh there too as I have a thicker skin type in general. (Meaning I can't pinch my skin less than half and inch thick except at my elbow, top of hands and feet.) Any thoughts?
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Author: Hotboy
Date: 2021-06-01 09:45
Please name names. Which "top oboe players" do you think have thin lips? I need convincing to buy into your theory.
Dane
Bay Area, California
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Author: CogentCap
Date: 2021-08-04 21:38
Plenty of top U.S. players have full, thick lips. I myself have extremely full lips and I'm a professional player. I can think of several high-profile famous players with full lips but don't want to name names on the Internets bc that conversation could turn weird pretty quick. Try looking at personnel photos on the websites of top U.S. orchestras and see for yourself.
I know it's a tempting conclusion to reach after seeing players like Francois Leleux and Albrecht Mayer with their invisilips, but keep in mind that thin lips is a distinctively continental-European look. Although they think they own music, the rest of us are good at it too, lol
Your concern about your endurance is valid, but you are asking to wrong question to resolve it. Maybe try looking at your embouchure? Could altering that in a constructive way give you more endurance?
Also, don't overlook practicing more as the obvious solution. If you stop playing when you get tired, so you only play 30 mins a day, you'll never get any stronger than that, regardless of having a teacher or not. Try playing in two or three sessions a day of 15-30 mins each. You should see yourself gain strength this way for sure. Even if you still stop when you get tired, you'll get tired farther and farther into your sessions.
Good luck!
Cogentius
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Author: wkleung
Date: 2021-08-13 07:45
From my personal observations, players with thicker/fuller lips indeed have more problems playing the oboe. The more lips one has, the more one has to roll in, hence one gets tired more quickly. When I started, I was in a class of 11 (or 12). The one with the most problem was the one with the fullest lips.
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Author: Prudence
Date: 2021-09-20 09:23
While placing the mouthpiece so the rim rests on the red of the upper lip is rare and not and limited flexibility and endurance, range difficulties.
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Author: CogentCap
Date: 2021-09-23 01:28
Here is a fb link from the Marigaux guy featuring all the semi-finalists of the Geneva Competition. Before you click it, how do you expect their lips will look?
Now see if their faces are as you expected. Interestingly enough, I would say NONE of them have thin lips.
Here's the link (or google it yourself if you prefer):
https://m.facebook.com/#!/story.php?story_fbid=10158751215682569&id=648817568&m_entstream_source=feed_mobile
Cogentius
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Author: belle
Date: 2022-03-04 13:31
Thanks for that link to the semi-finalists, although none have extremely full lips, it's very encouraging, as you say none have particularly thin lips.
Sorry I disappeared. I didn't get notifications to my email, and not sure even how to search my own profile for my posts. Found the thread again on google!
Yes, I didn't want to name names, as someone also pointed out, it could become way too weird of a conversation very quickly!
I just did remember others having problems in the past and wanted to get some input.
Thanks.
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Author: EaubeauHorn
Date: 2022-04-25 20:30
I don't understand why people think they have to roll their lips "all the way under" in such a way that lip thickness would matter.
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Author: Hotboy
Date: 2022-04-26 10:00
"I don't understand why people think they have to roll their lips "all the way under" in such a way that lip thickness would matter."
In my experience, control of the reed is the most important consideration. If one uses a reed that is not totally stiff, then the lips are necessary to control the vibrational aspects of the reed, including tone control and timbre. Rolling the lips so that most of the reed is touching flesh is a part of this.
Students of mine who had thin lips seemed to be at a decided disadvantage to full-lipped individuals who had enough flesh to control the reed.
Dane
Bay Area, California
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Author: EaubeauHorn
Date: 2022-05-14 20:14
But my reference was about someone with thick lips who thought he needed to roll them all the way under. I would venture that there is an optimal amount of lip tissue that needs to be in contact with the reed, and the only difference between thin-ish and thick-ish lips is what it *looks* like when that optimal amount of tissue is in contact.
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Author: concertmaster3
Date: 2022-05-15 08:39
EaubeauHorn: I think this often comes from teachers either teaching that there should only be a certain amount of lip and reed showing, OR the students using their teacher's embouchure as a model, and recreating the amount of lip seen.
The amount of reed seen on the outside of the mouth plays a big part in this too. People often thought that I had a lot of reed in my mouth, when I didn't, but because of the size of my lips, there was a significant amount of reed covered by my lips than the others in my studios.
From the Geneva Competition pic earlier in the thread, the all have average to thin lips.
Ron Ford
Woodwind Specialist
Performer/Teacher/Arranger
http://www.RonFordMusic.com
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Author: concertmaster3
Date: 2022-05-15 08:42
Attachment: Oboe3 - med.jpg (540k)
Attachment: Flute-02 - Med.jpg (361k)
EaubeauHorn: I think this often comes from teachers either teaching that there should only be a certain amount of lip and reed showing, OR the students using their teacher's embouchure as a model, and recreating the amount of lip seen.
The amount of reed seen on the outside of the mouth plays a big part in this too. People often thought that I had a lot of reed in my mouth, when I didn't, but because of the size of my lips, there was a significant amount of reed covered by my lips than the others in my studios.
From the Geneva Competition pic earlier in the thread, the all have average to thin lips. My pic attached for reference.
Ron Ford
Woodwind Specialist
Performer/Teacher/Arranger
http://www.RonFordMusic.com
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Author: Mathew23
Date: 2023-03-15 08:21
Perhaps your physiology is an influence; I wonder the same thing regarding French horn. The remark "we are athletes of the small muscles" sums up my personal journey with improving embouchure. That is, it is my view that in order to increase playing endurance, we must exercise like athletes, get plenty of rest, and eat properly so that our little muscles can develop to their full capacity.
Post Edited (2023-04-20 13:23)
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Author: EaubeauHorn
Date: 2023-06-30 21:31
Oh I just saw this. I'm a horn player. What I have seen and experienced is that there are some who are totally convinced that "thin lips only" work on the horn. I know players with very thick lips who are quite fine horn players, and yes you see both top and bottom lip tissue outside of the cup, while you see no lip outside the cup (other than the corners) with a thin-lipped horn player. What I determined, finally, was pretty much what I determined with the oboe --- that there is an optimal amount of lip tissue inside the cup that gets the best sound, and thin lips might have no lip showing outside while thick lips have a lot of lip showing, but they have the same amount of tissue inside the cup. A "thin" or "too bright" sound is not enough lip inside the cup, and a "too dark" or "muffy" sound is too much lip inside the cup.
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