 The Oboe BBoard
|
Author: OboeDad
Date: 2012-01-25 16:21
Hi all -
I've been lurking here for a few weeks and appreciate the collective wisdom. My daughter has just acquired her first wooden oboe, a 10-year old, crack-free MCW. Which means we're all worried about the possibility of cracking, especially up here in our cold New England home with dry heat. Her friend's newish grenadilla oboe just cracked, and her teacher's EHorn cracked a few years ago despite all precautions (it was a particularly cold winter, which translates into very low indoors humidity).
Besides the importance of warming up the oboe each time it's played, I'm wondering about "humidifying" it by putting it (at least occasionally) in the bathroom when she showers. This is what we do with our other daughter's cello, on her teacher's recommendation, and it works well, with no discernible problems.
Thoughts? Thanks in advance!
- P
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: OboeDad
Date: 2012-01-25 19:35
I should have said that we aren't concerned about the cello cracking. It just goes out of tune (sometimes terribly) as it dries out. It comes back in tune very nicely when it soaks up some of that humidity.
- P
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2012-01-25 23:25
This topic will generate lots of disagreement, at least it has before.
I live in Colorado (for 18 years post Maryland and Florida.) I bore oil and wipe down the exterior wood a couple times a year using Naylor's bore oil. I used sweet almond oil previously. A spare pull-though swab is dedicated to that purpose and use care so only a small amount of oil is deposited on the bore and ensuring none flows into tone holes or octave vents.
I have the same oboe and english horn I had in Md and Fla,.. and no cracks (yet).
I have a newer oboe, too, that came to me from Ohio 5 years ago.
I treat it the same, and so far no cracks. I also had no cracks in Loree I owned in Va.
When I notice the keys starting to bind in the winter, I place the horns on a stand in my bathroom following a shower, or even on the shower stall of the master bath.
I let the heat dissipate a bit, then place the horns in there, a couple minutes on day one, a couple more on day 2 and perhaps 15 minutes on day three.
I repeat throughout the winter dry months. I have a solar home, and electric baseboard as backup, so it does get really dry.
Some people place fresh orange peels in the oboe case over the oboe in winter, using something like a sandwich bag to keep the acids off the keys.
A proper break-in was done on these instruments, which means a few minutes of playing daily for a couple weeks, and a few more added weekly for a month or two.
good luck with it,
-Craig
Post Edited (2012-01-25 23:26)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2012-01-26 00:58
@Craig --
FIVE years ago! Was it really??
Time flies when you're having fun.
(Time flies, whether you are having fun or not. So you might as well have fun.)
Susan
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Dutchy
Date: 2012-01-26 13:36
The thing you have to understand about wooden oboes is...they crack. Even experienced professional oboists who know how to prevent cracks have had a beloved oboe crack. Sometimes it's just going to crack and there's nothing you can do about it.
So if your daughter's oboe does crack, I want you to be sure you don't blame her, or anything she, or you, might have done differently.
Trying to keep the oboe in higher ambient humidity when it's not in use might help a little, but my understanding of the physics behind cracking is that it's not so much the lack of humidity, as it is a *change* in humidity AND in temperature that causes cracking. A common situation is when you take it from a warm, most car into a cold, dry performance hall. An oboe's top joint bore is so much narrower in diameter than, say, a clarinet, that the wood just can't take the stresses involved in flexing back and forth between "warm/moist" and "cold/dry", and it cracks.
So keeping the oboe in the bathroom might help, but it's not going to be a guarantee against cracking, since sooner or later she's going to have to take it out of the warm, moist bathroom into a cold, dry performance venue, even if it's just to school.
Most oboists are passionately protective about their top joint; generally if you know you're going to be in a place with wide swings in humidity AND temperature, you keep your top joint tucked into your armpit when possible. People also literally bundle up their oboe case in layers of blankets and styrofoam coolers and suchlike, if they're going outside into frigid temperatures, to keep the oboe at the room temperature it left behind.
So it's "change" she needs to be wary of, mainly.
Also please note that a crack is not necessarily a death sentence; there are many fine oboes out there that have been pinned, even multiple times.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gerry L
Date: 2012-01-26 19:25
There's the HUMISTAT option as well.
I suspect however that in cold climates there is the risk of freezing. Does anyone have experience with that?
The same company has a little hygrometer, which might be useful for monitoring just how extreme the conditions really are, and to detect how bad any humidity change might be.
Gerry
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2012-01-26 19:30
I've always feared a suden change in temperatures the most.
Pre-warming a car is helpful, but illegal in Colorado if you leave it 'huffing'.
I live in a gated community well outside the town and do let my car huff a couple minutes to protect my instruments, though.
In my student days I drove a little MG with a leaky soft top and not much heat.
Then I places the case against my chest under my coat to keep it 'warmer'.
Other advice out here is to place the instrument in a house temp. ice chest for portage in the car.
I think I like that, but it would not have helped me in HS walking a mile to the bus stop, oboe, and two saxes in tow. Noe and then A book or 2, too.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Dutchy
Date: 2012-01-26 21:08
<<< Pre-warming a car is helpful, but illegal in Colorado if you leave it 'huffing'. >>>
I believe it's called "puffing" and a car that's left idling, and a person who leaves their car idling, are both called a "puffer"?
"Huffing" is when you inhale fumes.
But I do enjoy the mental image of you allowing your car to huff a few minutes before you set off. :D
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kimber
Date: 2012-01-26 23:12
We have our share of blustery frigid winters in Wisconsin. I've had the hygrometer in the bathroom just to check that out. I haven't put my instruments in there as the yo-yo humidity swing worries me. I use a humistat in the case and keep it at least half full at all times. Warm up the top joint before playing under your arm or wrap your hands around it before blowing into it. Always swab out a couple of times before it goes back into the case and goes outside. I recommend - use a humistat in the case, avoid using an instrument stand if the band room feels particularly chilly. Keep on lap with hands gently over the top joint.
I have played my oboe 20 years and it had it's first crack 3 years ago - a small crack in the bell at the tenon end which occurred during evening band practice in a chilly band room. The oboe probably cooled off during sectional work where oboes didn't play or during an EH movement. Fixed like it was never there. I do a light bore and outer oiling every 6 weeks through the drier winter weather (lots of opinions on bore oiling - this is just what I have tended to do - the rosewood grain does look dry periodically.)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2012-01-27 04:50
Huffing is what happens if I stay IN the car, in the garage while it puffs...
Almost forgot the ![[toast]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley15.gif)
Post Edited (2012-01-27 04:51)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jeltsin
Date: 2012-01-27 06:45
It is important that you always get rid of the moisture after playing, I only miss that once when I was in a hurry (to a bus), and that resulted in the only crack I have had (and I miss the bus).
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ian White
Date: 2012-01-28 11:54
I agree with Dutchy that the oboe is more likely to crack with sudden changes in temperature &/or humidity. So keep it well insulated when taking it outside (This also applies in hot weather). As to what to do at home, even at normal room temperature the change in humidity when playing could be great - humidifying the whole house would be better for the oboe, other wooden objects & maybe even for the occupants.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2012-01-28 18:12
Again, the words of my brother, 30 year forestry engineer with patents in quality control of building lumber.... he quotes industry world-wide rigorous scientific testing.
Moisture (humidity) and actual water runoff (condensation) have different effects.
* Temperature (alone) has NO effect on wood (but it does on the metal screws and rings).
* Depending on your geographic location, changing temperature can mean changing humidity.
* Dryness (and humidity) will cause contraction/expansion on the wood (in different directions than the metal)
* Water leeches away aspects of the wood that keep it "alive".... water "dries" the wood.
I think warming the instrument under clothing (next to the skin) must help stabilize humidity, because our skin gives off a lot of moisture, even when not sweating.
If you apply oil thinly and frequently, then a buildup of oil can help prevent water from working on the wood. This is why Laubin recommends applying Pledge-like furniture wax with a feather. But the most important thing is to swab frequently.
My blog has links to really good and animated previous BBoard discussions.
http://robindeshautbois.blogspot.com/p/discussion-threads.html
Best of luck!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: OboeDad
Date: 2012-01-29 02:23
Thank you, everyone, for sharing your experiences and helpful suggestions. Rest assured that I will not blame my daughter if/when her oboe does crack. ;-)
Reading this thread, other threads on this topic, and other sources on the internet, there appears to be essentially universal agreement that rapid temperature changes pose the greatest risk for cracking, though it's not clear whether this should be attributed to the direct effect of temperature or associated changes in humidity. From my own pseudo-scientific and "oboe ignoramus" perspective, I deduce that the single most dangerous thing is blowing hot, humid air into a cold oboe.
Not many people seem to do "the shower thing," but at least no one spoke of negative experiences with deliberate exposure to such humidification. We'll be careful not to over-do it, and not to expose the oboe to a rapid increase in temperature as part of that process.
I can't stop myself from trying to synthesize all your information into a complete explanation. FWIW, my hunch (and again, this is obviously just my own ignorant opinion) is that cracks result from differential drying of the outside vs. the inside of the oboe. That is, in the cold winter months, the dry heat of our homes result in drying of the oboe's wood. This occurs slowly, just like a piano loses its tune over a matter of weeks, not all of a sudden. Meanwhile, the inside of the oboe stays well-hydrated because it is frequently getting blown into. The crack happens when the gradient between the inside and outside gets sufficiently large, either because the slow drying of the outside has reached a critical point, or because the inside suddenly gets heated (and perhaps expanded, though Robin's brother would downplay this), or a combination of the two.
Last question: Do folks think that, in the tight, well-compartmentalized confines of an oboe case, the humidity from a Humistat of Dampit really circulates all throughout the case?
Anyway, thank you all again.
- P
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2012-01-29 06:35
For oboe, they are small, and some players usefully place them inside the top and bottom joints. I no longer use them.
Care is taken to ensure no leaking water is there, but that still raises some questions re: inner and outer humidity...
Ain't easy is it?
Good luck with it. Advise your daughter to avoid any extreme temps, and sudden changes. Try to do the slow break-in (right), oil the bore (sweet almond oil or Naylor's bore oil) and hope for the best.
Do provide her good swabs... and that is another topic of complexity.
Pull through? PUll in and out? Cotton, or silk. Turkey feathers... (freaking bird feathers, if you are lucky enough to find a source).
And just think, you coulda had a V-8, er, I mean clarinet or sax player.
Seriously, invest in the oboe. It carries opportunities and rewards along with the challenges and will be a life-long love for your daughter long after she stops playing...at age 18 or 81.
Seriously.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2012-01-29 19:19
@ Oboe Dad "Last question: Do folks think that, in the tight, well-compartmentalized confines of an oboe case, the humidity from a Humistat of Dampit really circulates all throughout the case?""
I have long had serious doubts about the efficacy of a Humistat in the case. I used to keep a hygrometer in the case, and I did not ever find that the interior humidity in the case was any different than the ambient humidity of the room.
OTOH, I tried something different this year, and I can tell you that it is pretty certainly enhancing the humidity of the wood. Let me preface this a little by saying that the most obvious sign I have observed of oboe wood shrinkage during the winter heating months is that the metal ring on my oboe bell will always become loose.
This year, it got loose again in December, right on schedule. Then just this month, I started using a product called "Water Pillows Portable Humidifier" in the case http://www.waterpillowsinfo.com After just two weeks, the bell ring is tight again!
This product is designed for use in cigar humidors. One "pillow" is said to be good for 60 - 90 days use. It is small, very cheap, watertight, easy to use, and apparently EFFECTIVE!! You just dip the thing in distilled water (per package instructions), and you are good to go. I have them in all my lesser-used instrument cases, as well as in my main double oboe/EH case.
Susan
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2012-01-29 19:24
Here is a source for turkey feathers:
David Mitchell Custom Feathers (email: feathers@greenhills.net)
He sells them in many sizes, but the ones for oboe should be about 11 - 12", and for English horn 14 - 15".
Thanks to Hannah Selznick for this resource!
Susan
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Wufus
Date: 2012-02-08 06:24
I think it is misleading to say that temperature has no affect on wood. Wood like almost all materials has a coefficient of thermal expansion, it certainly expands and contracts with temperature. This is certainly not suggesting that moisture doesn't have a major effect. Warm hot air on the inside of the bore with cold dry air on the outside is the combination that seems to be the major cause of cracking. The wood on the inside is expanding at the same time the outside is contracting puts a lot of stress on the wood.
Most of the stories I have heard about cracking involve a door to the outside being opened or a sudden blast of cold air. So I really think it is the combination of temperature and humidity with a greater emphasis on temperature.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2012-02-08 19:47
No, there is nothing misleading in the least about referring to scientifically conducted research done in controlled environments and peer-reviewed over and over again by the major players in the lumber industry. To contradict these means you have quantitative data to indicate the contrary.
When it comes to stories about cracks happening when doors are open, don't forget that the drafts caused thereby also
1. change the ambient humidity quite a lot
2. affect the metal, whose expansion which might very well be causing the strain on the wood.
So combination of moisture and temperature causing cracks: yes absolutely. But temperature alone causing expansion/contraction of the wood alone: I'll let findings that affect multimillion dollar industries decide that.
In the case of a dampit, consider the following: I have an older (standard) Loree zipper-case consisting of styrofoam covered with velvet. I put my dampit in the dig for the reed-case. When the dampit is full when I retire for the evening, I can open the case the next morining to find the velvet moist on the other side. I don't know how moisture circulates, but it does.
The oboe in the shower, however, risks runoff condensation which I would worry might leach essential properties of the wood.... again, as found by industrial research.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: OboeDad
Date: 2012-02-08 21:09
I am still learning from every post in this thread, so I much appreciate people chiming in.
When I googled "coefficient of thermal expansion" and "wood," I did find a possible distinction between expansion along the grain, vs. across the grain. Wood seems to be very stable dimensionally (in the face of temperature fluctuation) along the grain - much more so than many metals. However, the sources that I found have some disagreement about thermal expansion in the cross-grain dimension. I'm guessing that the "with grain" stability is more important than "cross-grain" for industrial applications???
By contrast, there seems to be wide agreement that moisture content can cause dramatic expansion/contraction of wood, and that denser woods are more highly affected than less dense woods.
Fun slide show on structural properties of wood:
http://www.swst.org/teach/teach2/properties2.pdf
(Well, "fun" might be an overstatement, but at least it's colorful.)
Table of coefficients of thermal expansion (though I don't completely trust this, as there are some formatting issues, repeated data, etc.):
http://inspectapedia.com/exterior/Coefficients_of_Expansion.htm
- P
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Wufus
Date: 2012-02-09 15:25
We have to be careful how we apply results from "scientifically conducted studies conducted in controlled environments" In general most of the studies are conducted on slabs of wood, or building material such as two-by-fours or plywood. And it is true that for all intents and purposes thermal expansion is relative negligible for these applications.
An oboe on the other hand is a small tube with a conical bore, a very different geometry and mass, which changes how the science is applied.
The following statements are taken directly from a publication from the Society of Wood Science and Technology which I hope qualifies as a "major player in the lumber industry".
"Expansion parallel to the grain is VERY small compared with other common solid materials..." "[the coefficient] across the grain is greater than all metals and other building materials. In fact, [the coefficient] is up to 10 times what it is along the grain." Across the grain expansion is the bad kind for oboe cracking.
www.swst.org/teach/teach2/properties2.pdf
Here is how this applies to the oboe. Because the wall of the oboe is thin (mass) and the temperature differential across it is great, the expansion/contraction across the grain can happen fairly quickly causing stress which could lead to cracking.
Same science, different application. A very important distinction.
If we apply the assumption that humidity is the predominant factor, then it would follow that oboes played in very dry climates would also be prone to cracking. I am not aware of this being a problem. Also thermal expansion/contraction happens much, much quicker than that caused by moisture.
I am not saying that humidity does not play a role, wood is greatly affected by moisture and the lack thereof. When I said that it was "misleading" to say that temperature has no effect on wood I was concerned that people may not take changes in temperate as seriously which would be a mistake.
I have a degree in Chemical Engineering which includes studies in Physics, Heat Transfer, and Material Science among others.
Sorry for the length. Just wanted to state my case scientifically.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2012-02-10 22:53
Frank,
Perhaps this might better spilt off to a new thread... but your chemistry and Robin's info on forestry studies got me thinking again about something.
A chemical treatment for oboe wood or reeds for that matter, that would promote longer useful life, stability, crack resistance, etc.
Something akin to acetic anhydride in its ability to expand the grain and reduce water absorption.
I have no idea if that particular compound is safe for up close human use, but there must be something that is.
Have you any thoughts about this?
-Craig
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
