 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: pliscapoivre
Date: 2012-01-18 19:32
Sometimes I lose tracks of the subdivisions of the beat during long notes. I have realized that it's because the waves of my vibrato (obviously) don't line up with the subdivisions, and as I am physically feeling them and hearing them, they overwhelm my efforts to count small subdivisions precisely and play with an excellent pulse.
Has any of you thought about this before? Do you have any suggestions as to how one might help the mental subdivisions to take precedence over the vibrato cycle?
Thank you!
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2012-01-18 20:35
This is very interesting indeed!
I have never experienced your situation. My vibrato is quite independent of meter subdivisions.
This is most probably because I always had problems with meter.
I am now finally mastering it by taking independent training in conducting and meter exercises combined with solfege.
So I think that meter pulse is another skill independent of vibrato.
Mark
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Author: pliscapoivre
Date: 2012-01-18 20:51
Hi Mark,
Yes, you are right -- pulse is definitely independent of vibrato -- that's exactly the problem, that I am feeling and hearing my vibrato, and it interferes with my ability to concentrate on the subdivisions.
Of course, I can practice without vibrato, but that is not a long-term solution.
Great that you are training separately in this area... best wishes!
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Author: tfriedle
Date: 2012-01-18 22:41
I would suggest focusing more on the subdivisions and just allowing the vibrato to work more subconsciously.
Maybe you are putting too much effort into producing a vibrato, and that's what makes it interfere with the meter.
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2012-01-18 23:23
Hi again,
Maybe it has to do with the way you learned vibrato ..... with an artificial drum like approached .... pulses for beat etc.
Maybe you should let the vibrato be more natural and unregulated and freer.
Mark
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-01-19 01:54
I was trying to read up a bit on vibrato today, and it looks like vibrato has changed over the years (and I'm talking in the 100s). I guess in the baroque eras violins used to have a different shape, making lots of vibrato stressful on the hands. Vibrato at this time was used minimally so as to not overtire the musician. Later, probably with the advent of new innovations such as the shoulder and chin rest, there was a shift to constant vibrato.
I am not a violinist, nor a music historian, and I was only able to spend an hour today on the subject.
Anyhow, I think vibrato is supposed to mimic the human voice, so however you would sing a piece is probably how you should play it. I've never sung vibrato at tempo, so I guess I wouldn't play it in tempo as well.
I guess metronome practice is your best bet for practice. Take small phrases and just have at it. I'm sure you'd get the feel for it after a few minutes.
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2012-01-19 03:21
Since suffering a brain injury, counting has been VERY hard for me, but it is (as ohters have said) quite unattached to vibrato.
The comments about vibrato being more 'subconscious' and a reflection of the human voice are good ones; I have to remind myself to VARY my vibrato depending on the expression required in the passage being played. There's bright vibrato, fast v., slow v., variable v., etc. Unlike subdividing, which is pretty mathematical (unless you're playing extremely rubato).
If you keep playing with feeling and practice regularly, I'm willing to 'bet' that it will all come together with time.
GoodWinds
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Author: pliscapoivre
Date: 2012-01-19 08:16
Thanks, everyone!
I have indeed been very focused on vibrato production these days.
Since I finished graduate school 10 years ago, I've never had a lesson -- and I've gotten into some strange habits too gradually to notice until I came to Germany, got a new instrument that wouldn't allow me to continue in the old way, and got some aspects of this German sound in my head. I've also been listening to a huge amount of opera here, which has made my imagination blossom and has had an effect on my sound.
I've never worked on vibrato much before, and have always been pleased with the variety of expression and speed I've been able to produce -- but, at least for the time being, the more European constant vibrato helps me to keep the throat out of it, relaxed and just a free tube through which the air goes. This has also had a great effect on my endurance. But I am using a lot of pressure from the diaphragm and always taking care that the vibrato is coming only from there, which is now interfering with the subdivisions.
Maybe I just need more time to get used to this improved method of sound production, and when it becomes natural, I can get back to subdividing. Sounds funny, but could be...
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Author: ceri
Date: 2012-01-20 10:19
Do you see a difference between European and American vibrato in terms of production?
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Author: pliscapoivre
Date: 2012-01-21 00:54
Interesting question. I would say that there isn't a difference in terms of production, no. But I didn't study in Europe at all. Maybe someone who studied formally in both places would be better able to answer you...
I can say that the vibrato exercises I learned in the US (from Ronald Roseman) are working very well now with the more European, soloistic, and more present vibrato I am using.
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Author: pliscapoivre
Date: 2012-02-22 09:44
Hello all,
After a hiatus, I am bringing back this thread to which I never received a conclusive answer. I think that maybe my question was misunderstood -- so I am rephrasing it.
The sound of the waves of my vibrato during long notes distract me from counting subdivisions precisely.
Without vibrato I can keep track of the tiny fast notes inside the beat with ease, but the sound of the vibrato (which is unrelated to the speed of the subdivisions) pulses in my ear and makes it hard to focus on the fast subdivisions.
Therefore, the precision of my rhythm suffers. I'm working very hard toward perfection in the rhythmic pulse.
Thank you in advance for any help you can offer!
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2012-02-22 18:20
"Therefore, the precision of my rhythm suffers".
I believe the problem isn't the vibrato production - is the internalization of meter. Meter sub-divisions should be automatic and always in the background and working.
I have problems with meter and sub-divisions ... the way I have approached the problem (through lessons) ... is conducting with rhythm exercises.
For example, "Rhythmic Training" by Robert Starer.
The other approach is to do solfege with rhythmic patterns and to sing the melody line with conducting ............... once this becomes second nature - then the vibrato will be independent of the meter ...which hopefully will be internalized and automatic.
I think trying to fit the vibrato always into the meter doesn't feel totally right.
What do others think?
Mark
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Author: Jennetningle
Date: 2012-02-22 23:59
What about trilling on that long note? A trill is similarly non-metric - does that have the same effect? If not, could you trick your brain into understanding vibrato the same way?
Jennet
_________________________
Jennet Ingle
<www.jennetingle.com>
<www.proneoboe.com>
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Author: pliscapoivre
Date: 2012-02-23 14:07
Hm, good point, Jennet! I think that the trill does present the same problem. (Hi -- it's me, Amari!) However, I usually practice trills with a metronome and figure out how many turns I will put in, so the number of notes in the trill ends up being its own subdivision in a sense.
Of course, Mark, I agree. The vibrato would sound very unnatural if it were made to fit within the subdivisions.
Yesterday I started trying to "turn up the volume" of my mental subdivisions to "drown out" the waves of vibrato. I think that that will be successful in a few days or weeks. I'll let you know...
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2012-02-23 17:25
I agree that the vibrato is not metric. It is a function of the emotional (if that's the word) content of the phrasing line, i.e. it tends to tighten with the tension in the phrase and relax with the phrase resolution. My teacher liked the expression, 'drive and float'.
And yes, if you are thinking about your vibrato it almost certainly precludes careful attention on the meter. I remember an ear training exercise in school where we had to walk to a metronome beat while subdividing two other beats with our hands, like 2 & 3, 5 & 6, 4 & 7 and the like. The mental energy necessary to comprehend those lines left no room to think about anything else.
Try the following: Define a phrase with vibrato on a single note. Set your metronome at a slow tempo, start a tone flat, then, keeping to metronome beats, warm the sound with vibrato, then increase the intensity with a tighter vibrato, finally resolving the phrase with a relaxation of the vibrato, 'floating' to the end of the 'phrase'. Vary the lengths of the different 'parts' of the phrase. Maybe build phrases on arpeggios or scales, just so the notes themselves are very simple and don't require attention.
When you start to associate the vibrato with the shape of the phrase, you won't be thinking of it in metric terms, freeing your attention for the necessary rhythmic considerations.
Hope this helps.
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2012-02-23 20:54
Very good advice indeed!
I learned to develop vibrato in a similar fashion over 16 beats ... in a skewed curve ... where the first 8 beats the vibrato was more relaxed (with a gentler slope) ...and the 9 - 12 it was the most intense (peak of the curve) with a fall off over the last 4 beats.
Mark
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Author: pliscapoivre
Date: 2012-02-23 23:12
Thank you very much, huboboe. You state all of this in a remarkably articulate way, and I look forward to implementing your advice tomorrow.
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Author: WoodwindOz
Date: 2012-02-23 23:33
The trill analogy was interesting, Jennet. When I teach ornamentation (or rather, a piece containing ornamentation) I advise students to leave it out until the rhythm in secure, practice them independently, then when both are secure, putting it back together.
If this is the case with the vibrato, I would try the same. Play the phrase you are trying to establish the rhythm of. Become so familiar with it that the rhythm becomes natural. Practice vibrato independent of rhythm. When the two are settled, put them back together.
I know there are many different approaches to vibrato, but it is generally advised not to use it during faster rhythmic passages. It is used to colour the tone; it is not the tone itself. Pick the notes you are going to use it on. It doesn't need to be all of them. Not having to focus on it constantly may free up pulse in other areas. (Ignore this if your teachers have told you otherwise, this is merely my opinion.)
One last thing...metronome. Even after all these years, I still have to remind myself of the true importance of this device!
Rachel
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2012-02-24 00:09
I had good teachers, both directly and in the colleagues I played with. Glad to pass along their advice... :-)
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: Jennetningle
Date: 2012-02-24 00:49
Rachel,
I do the same in teaching ornamentation, BUT when I was learning to circular breathe I had a very hard time implementing it while changing notes. My route in was to do it during trills to get used to that feeling of breathing while other things were happening. I know that Pliscapoivre is not an inexperienced player, so thought that that sort of trick might help.
Jennet
_________________________
Jennet Ingle
<www.jennetingle.com>
<www.proneoboe.com>
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