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Author: Theyoungoboist
Date: 2011-02-17 23:05
I'm having a really hard time producing extreme dynamics. i realize that you must practice to get good dynamics, but I have never really learned how to practice them.
Is it simply playing softer then growing louder and then softer again until you get good at it, or is there more to it?
-TYO
http://oboeadventures.tumblr.com/
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Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2011-02-17 23:30
A couple things to do daily that will help grow that ability:
1) Play long tines, and try a couple variations, one where you start soft and cresc. then decres.
With a metronome setting of 92 - 104 (whatever is comfortable), play cresc for 8 beats, decresc for 8 beats, cresc for 8 beats on one breath. Exhale, relax, breath in and continue. The rate of dynamic change should be more apparent on beats 6 - 8 going up and down.
I like to start in the middle range and work my way down seeing how much difference I can get as I go all the way to the bottom of the oboe.
So practice that.... people avoid it and that is a mistake.
Then reverse the pattern, start forte and go soft then loud on the long tone.
2) Practice drives. Those are long tones where you tongue each beat over the cresc. and decresc. Use a legato tongue and as little tongue on the reed as possible....almost none!
Both exercises are great warmups and the drives really tell you if the reed is responsive enough. (Assuming your oboe is adjusted properly and not leaking anywhere.)
For drives do a cresc. on one note, from p < F over 8 beats, then drop 1/2 step and reverse,... go from F > p. Keep doing this all the way to low b-flat.
I like to start with 2nd octave d and work down, then 2nd octave d and go up the oboe, at least to high d.
These exercises become a habit, even meditative eventually, and they really separate the pros from the rest of the players.
You will find as you learn more about reed making, this drive test is really important for evaluating the function of the reed.
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2011-02-18 05:12
Adding to Craig's excellent exercises, two things come to my mind when it comes to dynamics:
- In music, although dynamics do literally suggest the shade of volume, i find that it helps one to think more of the expression that the dynamic brings instead of it's pure volume. Depending on the music you play, at that particular moment, one has to have the will to mentally reach that dynamic, and this will can sometimes be more important than physical effort to produce the right sound. To give an example, think Schubert's Unfinished Symphony opening theme with clarinet, here instead of thinking now i need soft soft soft, you think, i need to phrase the same as the clarinetist and blend the sound, suddenly, it happens! Think the first big solo in the 2nd movement, there is a crescendo in the high Bb towards the next bar with the dancing rhythms. Here instead of thinking go louder, one thinks, phrase towards the next bar, and force yourself to mentally really BLOW into the next bar. I find in such situations where vibrato helps immensely. A change of color is often the key, thus adding vibrato to the crescendo. Again, we know in practical terms that it involves change of volume, but somehow, it works better when you think in different perspectives, at least for myself.
- Of course non of the above is useful when we don't involve practical practicing advise. I do only 2 exercises for pure dynamics (one admittedly less than the other).
1. Simply, switch on a tuner, play long tones in < > manner in a manageable length (say 8 beats at crotchet = 70), and the key is to keep in tune, often more important than sticking out in an ensemble in an attempt to play louder!
2. Pick a note, and with a tuner, always, play a note for 8 beats, again at any speed you can handle, and try and achieve an almost robotic sound in expression but full of depth in color, in other words, a giant FORTE with no change whatsoever throughout the 8 beats. At the 9th beat, suddenly, do a subito piano without taking a breath, and hold it for a further 8 beats. Again this has to be in tune with the tuner. When you reach the end of the 8 beats, again, at the 2nd 9th beat, slur to the next upper or lower semitone for 4 beats keeping soft. Rest, and repeat the exercise on that note you ended with. Trust me, this is a really useful exercise in building dynamics!
But really, think musical, crescendi and diminuendi are often just phrasing ideas, since there are rarely robotic volume suggestions in music (unless you are playing a lot of late 20th-21st century solo repertoire). The rest, is often sudden changes (that are hopefully in tune) and that is where the exercise above will benefit you. Britten's Temporal Variations is a great piece to learn dynamics!
To answer your question, no, it's not repeated playing that improves it, it's identifying what helps change the dynamics (using the sides of the lips to increase or decrease the cover on the reed, working with less or more air to play in tune in different dynamics), and being sensitive about what it means to play a certain dynamic in context of music. (a piano dynamic can really be a solo in orchestra and thus takes a complete different meaning altogether, not necessarily louder, just different in character.)
Post Edited (2011-02-18 05:17)
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Author: WoodwindOz
Date: 2011-02-18 05:32
While not a technical exercise, the one thing that has opened up the world of dynamics to me as an oboist was having the opportunity to play next to one of our state symphony orchestra players on our community music camp, which was both intimidating and enlightening. I wasn't aware of the sheer dynamic range that the oboe was capable of until that moment (I think it was the Strauss Wind Serenade that did it!)
It has opened up my world, as before I used the instrument as an excuse, "I play oboe, I can't possibly play that quietly!" But now my attitude has changed with knowledge, which in turn has helped my ability to develop dynamic range. Recordings do not do it justice. If you ever have chance to sit next to or near a good oboist (especially in chamber music), I highly recommend it.
One thing I make all of my students do, regardless of the instrument they are learning, is play complete passages at certain dynamics. Flute players often have trouble playing loudly as band directors have told them to play quietly all the time. Make it part of your warm up routine to play either scales or certain passages of music at constant dynamics - especially the extremes. I often tell my students when they first try to play an extreme dynamic to disregard tone - temporarily of course! I find they are so scared of making an 'ugly' sound that they are afraid to do anything that may cause it! Quite often in their quest to play louder with permission to sound 'ugly', they actually sound fine, they just haven't allowed themselves to get to thaqt point before. I hope that makes sense! You need to find the limit before you can polish it.
I do like the cresc/decresc long note exercise as well.
Good luck!
Rachel
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2011-02-18 05:34
If there is a like button on Rachel's post, i would click it now. Ha!
Howard
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2011-02-18 05:39
I do something very similar to Craig.
Metronome at 60, begin on low G.
Begin pianississimo
crescendo 12 beats
hit fortississimo
decrescendo 12 beats
Exhale and rest approximately 6 beats
Breath, and repeat on Ab
The duration of long tone and rest depends on your physical stamina at the time, but this is the general idea. Be very specific with your counting, and don't just approximate. Too often we approximate in our music and never quite reach that FF marking or never quite decrescendo enough to that pp at the end of the phrase.
You should also evaluate how you're choosing to crescendo and decrescendo. If you're doing it all with air and not with embouchure, then you're going to need to make very compact, very responsive reeds with lots of flexibility. If you're doing it more with embouchure cover manipulation you'll need more open reeds. In any case, just be aware of exactly what kind of reed you need in order to succeed, and know that usually reeds compensate at one end or another. If you need a big reed for a loud piece, you usually sacrifice the quieter dynamics. If you need a reed that can play pianissississsisssississimo low D's, they probably won't have a FFF on the same note. The major purpose of long tones for me is to build strength so my embouchure can allow both ends of the spectrum, so that my reeds can shoot for closer to the middle of the road.
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
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Author: WoodwindOz
Date: 2011-02-18 06:44
Thankyou Howard! Believe it or not, it was only yesterday that my realisation regarding 'ugly' sound really hit. I have a flute student with a beautiful sound, but a maximum dynamic of mp. All the cajoling in the world has not helped her play louder, until I asked her if it was because she was afraid it would sound ugly, to which she said yes.
Later that day, I had a small group of flautists with much the same problem. I immediately asked them to play a passage forte. A real forte, and not worry about the sound. We would fix that later. I have never heard such a robust sounding forte from young flute students in all my teaching days! What a revelation.
I think we try to take on too much at once sometimes in our quest to achieve, whereas if we break it down into components, we see that it is really not that difficult. Like practicing a passage of semiquavers and expecting to practice it by playing it straight through over and over again, instead of breaking it down into patterns and sections.
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-02-18 09:31
TYO: THANK YOU for starting this thread.... holy cow there's good stuff here! All contributors gave really good advice.
Reed exercises, take the reed out of the oboe, also help because it works on the muscular dynamics of the face and gut. So:
1. holding your reed just enough so it won't fall, blow hard and pull in and push out with your lips
2. wah-wah-waaaaahhhh by opening and closing the lips
3. staccato without tongue (just start/stop blowing)
=> do these as loudly as you can: I have found that practicing reed exercises loudly actually helps me play softly more easily.
And it is also true that dynamics are not just about loudness, there is a character to them that you can get just by your mind-set. I don't know why, but the body seems to take care of the rest.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2011-02-18 18:11
Thomas Indermuhle is a big advocate of reed exercises for dynamics, although he didn't encourage lengthy exercises for them, he did mention the need for:
1. Checking a consistent playing position crow on the reed. (whatever it is, it has to be consistent, and if it isn't, learn how to distinguish whether it's you or the reed)
2. Getting the same playing position crow (which should be a different pitch in different registers, although ideally, we want them to be the same) in different dynamics, and that is really difficult!
Regards,
Howard
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Author: Theyoungoboist
Date: 2011-02-18 23:32
I find that I'm not afraid that playing loud will sound ugly but that I won't get as good a tone when playing soft. So far every time I've tried I get a puttering sound. This is probably from lack of air support.
How do I keep enough air support but play quietly? Are support and the air you push out to make the reed vibrate different things?
http://oboeadventures.tumblr.com/
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Author: johnt
Date: 2011-02-19 00:13
As my teacher tells me: when you play softly you have to support just as much as when you play blastoso & then proceed to "make a crescendo that never gets louder." You have to combine embouchure & support…long tones are the way to get there, on a daily basis. The reed must work & the oboe must seal. It will take time to get there; it took me about five or so years, but then I'm a slow learner. You will find your own way as long as you don't give up.
Best,
john
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2011-02-19 03:09
John's make a crescendo that never gets louder is what i tell myself everyday too!
Howard
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Author: JRC
Date: 2011-02-19 12:58
There are two kinds of dynamic; visual and acoustical. I have seen more of visual one than acoustical one over the years. Probably it is more accurate to say there are mostly visual ones. I do not think it is matter of practicing one must hear the sound, not the tone but the volume, articulation, subtle different ways of expression.... etc.
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-02-19 14:24
When discussing music, I would HOPE we are talking about the dynamics of sound.... though I agree many performances seem geared just as much towards dazzling the eyes...
I'm not completely against moving the body, but it seems that a certain amount of self-restraint is required to channel that energy into the sound. I've seen You-Tube videos of people waving like there's no tomorrow on an adagio long note! ... in person, I've seen even more ridiculous...
Sometimes the body reacts to the inspiration, and that's fine. Correct sound requires some body support - keep still - but a fluid stance to prevent stiffness.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: JRC
Date: 2011-02-19 15:16
Nothing wrong with musical dynamics flow into bodily expression. That is a part of performance, some come through from how the performer feels, some make up to entertain the audience (Lang Lang comes to mind). My point is, one must be able to distinguish the differences in subtle different musical expressions. All the practice means nothing until one hears the difference. Then... only after then... once should put together music from bunch of notes. One could play music and of course lots of people play the notes.
Practice the music, once you make sense of the notes. Your music will evolve as you evolve. Being aware of music is the gift to musicians.
Practicing dynamics is pointless.
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2011-02-19 19:51
I think the purpose of this string is to discuss how to gain the capacity to be able to perform different dynamics.
Dynamics is like one of many tools in your toolbox. As is technique, tonguing, etc. etc. etc. All of these help build the overall house/project, which would be the music.
I know the rest of this rant might become controversial, so I would first like to state that I recognize that this is merely my opinion, and I do not state it as a matter of fact.
I strongly disagree with JRC on several points most notably that practicing dynamics is pointless. There's nothing wrong with practicing how to make different dynamics out of context (such as long tones) so that you strengthen the muscles needed to perform different dynamics. Then when you need them under fire, you are able and capable to make them.
John Mack used to yell and students for moving too much, and would always say "Make music with the oboe, not with your body." I despise watching Joshua Bell, as his bodily movements seem ridiculous, and distract from the music which comes out of his violin.
In fact, I believe many musicians make too many bodily movements in an attempt to supplement their own inadequate music making skill from their instrument, at which point it becomes a puppet show rather than a musical experience.
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
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Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2011-02-19 21:42
I have to agree with Cooper on this matter. I studied with several really fine players and all emphasized the long tones and drives over varied dynamics.
I really think they help in many ways, and including reed making, by placing an important demand on the reed. The reed functions related to expressiveness, flexibility and pitch stability all benefit from having that demand made of the reeds.
On the matter of performer's histrionics... I try not to do it and I really dislike seeing it.
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2011-02-19 21:47
Hear! Hear!
Many of us, of course, were brought up to stay as still as humanly possible while playing. I suspect there may be some limits to that, as well -- when it leads to tension and rigidity that affects musical expression.
However, it seems all too easy to let relaxation in musical presentation become license. I, too, am really distracted by the (intentional or unintentional) bobbing and weaving that seems almost de rigueur in many performances today. When I see members of a quintet, for example, leaning to and fro as if blown by some private wind, I just want to shout, "Sit still, for God's sake!"
On the other hand, one of my favorite double reed videos making the rounds right now is this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w75givGyduk. The name of the group is "The Breaking Winds," and they are a bassoon quartet, with choreography.
Oh, and this is at the Eastman School of Music, no less.
There's a difference between choreography and fidgeting.
Susan
Post Edited (2011-02-19 21:52)
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-02-20 00:49
Why is the bassoon always so comical? They are also often imaginative.... I like that!
Yes, choreography is different than fidgeting. Heinz Holliger is not my favourite, but I do admire his technique, including how he uses waving in some attempt to use geometry and acoustics to amplify dynamics.
Also, it seems Karlos Kleiber and some other of the light-hearted conductors know that when they get on stage, their work is essentially over, and use their gesticulation to lead the audience visually (e.g. New-Years concerts) in what is otherwise a dead-boring (visual) display.... thought the sound display be awesome.
Myself, I don't have the balance, I don't use waving right in the least. When I move, its all a matter of my muscles pulling the wrong way because of fibromyalgia. Also, I just can't dance. I believe that to be a gap in my personal make-up and I believe it could be beneficial to my sound.
But again, sound first and everything to help the projection, not the converse.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2011-02-20 02:36
Robin,
The bassoon ?... Its because they really play bassoon.
Clowns of the orchestra, and they took a long time, many centuries earning that distinction.
Not that there is anything wrong with that.
I happen to know and respect at least 2 of the 100+ I have played with over the years.
![[toast]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley15.gif)
Post Edited (2011-02-20 02:36)
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2011-02-20 07:10
This really is a great thread - thanks, TYO!
I agree completely with Craig and Cooper - you practice long tones, crescendo and decrescendo, to get the full dynamic range you need - it becomes another tool you add to your musical toolbox. When you make music you do not want to be limited to a range of mp to mf, but pppp to ffff.
A word of caution, however. In most situations (including orchestral), the oboe has NO problem being heard. The oboe's unique tone shines through the densest of musical textures, which is one of the reasons why Oboe is a high-wire act - you are always in a spotlight of your own making.
So, make sure that the sound you are making is appropriate for the music being played. As an example it is easy to be excessively agressive on a Sforzando in a clasical Minuet - almost always a mistake. Every musical marking must be tempered by the style of music being played.
J.
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Author: Gerry L
Date: 2011-02-20 09:25
I don't mind Leleux's movement in that clip.
Then again, I used to be a bassoonist!
Gerry L
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-02-20 12:17
You see, I find Michele the correct balance of moving to the phrasing and not uselessly waving.
But the video also made me realize: seems to me real fortissimo passages in sonatas, oboe or bassoon, there is a character of loudness, but in fact the piano is overshadowing the soloist.... its like we "know" the oboe/bassoon is playing loudly, but in fact, the forte is done by the piano. Same thing (in reverse) with really soft passages.
I always knew this, but the video helped me realize it.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-02-20 12:32
There's just something about Schubert Symphonies that just reaches straight in the heart of the soul without needing to go through the rest...
=> his less well known 9th in C-major (the great) also does this with a MAGNIFICENT horn-solo intro to the 1st movement.
Notice how the clarinet did real dynamics: the instrument is renowned for it. Notice the oboe did well, but not AS well.
Leleux might wave like there's no tomorrow, but his sound is still all there. I can't stand to look at Stefan Schilli, but I'll listen to him any day. That doesn't mean that if you wave, your sound will improve! It just means that these masters do both. It's like I said: a rigid body will probably give a rigid sound. I think these people's waving only testifies of their comfort on stage and with the music.
I really like 1st video's oboist's sound. Anyone knows what he plays? But I have learned to be wary of good/bad sounds on recordings: the equipment and halls play a BIG role in what we get out of the speakers.... speaking from my own recent experience!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: JRC
Date: 2011-02-20 15:24
It appears that some (or most here) consider practicing long sustaining notes to be a exercise of dynamics, producing loud and soft sound. Perhaps because it involves crescendos and decrescendos. We all should do it for 10-15 minutes at the beginning of every practice session.
It is indeed an important exercise for an oboist, not to practice making loud and soft sound, but to (1) sensitize the embouchure control while maintaining steady intonation in long sustaining notes, (2) breath and vibrato (long and short) control also while maintaining steady intonation and (3) producing and sustaining consistent (desired) tone under control while (you guessed it) maintaining steady intonation. I know some people practice quarter tone during this session. It makes sense. Practicing quarter tone helps to play in tune. It heightens the sense of intonation. I personally do it with notes octave apart. Because my sense of octave seems to be a bit sharp. Actually I noticed that most oboe players have the same problem, even the famous ones. So this exercise has more to do with tone, breath, and intonation control than dynamics. At least for me it is. It also calms me down and heightens all senses and muscles I use to produce music. I even listen better after this.
If I want a louder sound, I just blow harder. I do not need to practice that. It is pointless thing to do without the musical context.
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-02-20 15:49
JRC: REALLY good points!
One of the things that would have prevented me from going very far as a pro (had I stayed the course) is a "quiver" in my sound. This frustrates me something awful because I have no idea what to do to stop this.... even in my best long-tone days it was there.
In my personal, individual case, I think its because of fibromyalgia. This nasty bugger makes me happy I quit when the quitting was good. As a software engineer, I can afford to take care of it, but as a musician, I think the effects would have been devastating.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: johnt
Date: 2011-02-20 20:01
Joe Robinson says to play for the most part with the air naturally in your lungs. Take a breath, let it out & then play. You can get ppp this way, provided you have an optimum reed. i've tried it; it really works. Convincing yourself that it does (work) is what is difficult. Of course the more you do something the easier it becomes. "Do what you are doing," to quote the Zen mantra. What say ye, Craig/Cooper/Howard?
Best,
john
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-02-20 22:09
Well, a technique used in MANY instances is to blow through the reed without it actually playing and then starting the note afterwards. In low notes, this is especially useful.
Howard already put some video demonstrations and gave the link to a Horn player who demonstrates this.
Starting the note can be done with a soft tonging, or by knowing when the air "catches" the reed.
This is part of the reed exercises one normally does.
For example, the Polenc Sonata that starts on the pp high D, that's the perfect place to let the "catch" start the note.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2011-02-21 03:52
John,
That hits me as very sound advice, plus as really good Zen and the Art of Oboe stuff.
I have been experimenting with circular breathing, and starting with just the natural air in my mouth... not really pretty yet, but I can hold a tone for almost 10 seconds that way now. (Well, with puffy cheeks to start...:)
-Craig
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2011-02-21 04:07
My most recent teacher has always had to persuade me that sometimes one does not have work that hard. Indeed sometimes, not working at all, works, especially in musical situations that require it. Take for instance the pp motifs in the hindemith sonata in the 2nd movement where most of us mortals seem to think that we have to work harder to get the leap to the lower octave. The opposite seems to win all the time. Of course....as always, and will forever be, a better reed helps....and that is simply a reality that we oboists have to accept... =/
On the other hand, starting a note without the tongue is to me extremely unreliable, as Prof. Terry, the bassoonist who did the articulation studies on youtube had demonstrated clearly. This is due to the fact that there are too many inconsistencies involved in such a method. But then again, i am not an advocate probably because i have not practiced such a way more than enough. I have a classmate who does it very very well and have no problems with pitch too.
Whatever works!
Howard
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Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2011-02-21 05:08
Robin,
Fairly recently, and that means earlier this year at age 55 after starting oboe at age 13, I fell into a reed evaluation thing where I use only air to start a 2nd octave c at mp.
Somehow how it evolved into a reed test for responsiveness (function).
I don't perform using that technique yet, but; as reed learning is a life-long endeavor this new thing has became a staple of my reed evaluation and perhaps its a statistical coincidence, but my yield of good reeds to bad ratio has improved at the same time...
Having said that, I find it even more useful and 'reliable' on english horn, and would probably do the New World Symp's ehorn solo that way , given the chance.
-Craig
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Author: Aaron Lakota
Date: 2016-06-30 06:29
I recently wrote a post on my blog about playing dynamics on the oboe. Please feel free to check it out and other oboe related articles.
http://aaronlakota.com/how-to-play-dynamics-on-the-oboe/
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