 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2010-10-19 13:49
Hi,
European Oboists use wire to adjust the opening of the reed.
I wonder if any American oboist have tried this ...... I have some reeds that if the reed was slightly more open - then the reed would be quite good.
So I am curious about wire and its use ...... it could save a couple of good reeds?!?
Thoughts comments ..................
Mark
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Author: WoodwindOz
Date: 2010-10-19 15:05
I buy my short scrape handmade reeds already wired. I find it extremely handy for making minute adjustments for tone and resistance - pressure with my fingers only for subtle change or pliers for a more drastic change. It tends to help stop reeds collapsing (in my experience) in extremes of weather.
However, having returned from the US a couple of days ago and having a wander into a double reed store there (where I purchased several long scrape reeds out of curiosity), I'm not sure how wire would work on long scrape. To my untrained eyes, the scrape seems to extend on these particular (handmade) reeds almost to the thread. The wired reeds I use have the wire situated at least 5mm from the thread - would that not interfere with the scrape to some degree? Pardon my ignorance on long scrape!
I personally like the wire. My reed feels naked without it (!) and I like that extra amount of control I have over adjustment (which is not as final or fatal as scraping alone).
It never hurts to experiment though - if the reeds are not working as they are, it can't hurt to try!
Rachel
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2010-10-19 18:34
Hi,
Have any American long scrape reed players tried a short scrape reed? Or vise versa....................
Comments....................
Mark
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2010-10-19 19:38
I've never tried a short scrape reed. I am skeptical that the scrape of the reed, per se, has much to do with tone. I think the tone is in the player.
In regard to the original question about wiring, yes, I have sometimes gently wired a reed if the opening seems too small, or if I have a really wonderful reed that is wanting to die -- the wire provides life support.
In my experience, wiring sometimes works. Other times, though, all you get is a distorted sound with pitch issues. But if it comes down to a reed being unplayable vs. trying a wire, I would try the wire. Not much to lose.
Susan
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2010-10-19 22:00
I play on long-scrape American reeds, and I use 32 gauge silver beading wire (available at hobby shops here) to bolster a collapsing but still good, if elderly, reed. You don't wire it "open" as such, you just give the wire a couple of wraps (and a short twist to hold it in place) right at the base of the scrape, which then gives the reed blades something to push against as they vibrate, giving them the feeling that they're stiffer than they are. I find it a great way to salvage an old reed that's collapsing.
You can also experiment with pitch by tightening or loosening the wire, with the twist, the way you'd tighten or loosen a Baggie tie--too tight and the pitch changes, too loose and you don't get the bolstering effect.
You can push the wire down if at times you don't feel like playing on it "wired".
Goodtoneguild reeds are always wired, which is where I got the idea.
Post Edited (2010-10-19 22:01)
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Author: Jeltsin
Date: 2010-10-20 06:35
I have tried both but I prefer the short scape. For me the high notes were easier to produce with a long scrape reed but the stability on the low notes were much better with a short scape reed.
Now I have no problem with the high notes and short scrape.
I actually have a question about the short scrape: Does anyone know were I can buy a short scape reed which is extremly short?
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Author: ceri
Date: 2010-10-20 09:22
Jeltsin, how short do you mean by "extremely short"?
European short scrape reeds do vary in the length of the scrape, so someone might be able to help if you are a bit more precise.
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Author: Jeltsin
Date: 2010-10-20 10:27
Hi ceri
I have found out when I try different reeds, it is always the one with shortest scrape that works best for me, but if I compare the one that I bought, Jones or from http://www.britanniareeds.com/, the size of the scrape is rather the same.
I have tried to do reeds with shorter scrape by myself, but the reeds I do is not so good yet. I sometimes succeed when I cut of 1 mm of the tip and take of some material from the reed, but I hesitate to do that with a new reed.
I would be nice to try a new reed with a shorter scrape.
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-10-21 22:42
Well,
most respondents of this thread have also been following some really interesting threads during the summer.
All I can say from my own experience is that I have tried wire on many occasions - when I was doing American scrape, and short scrape. For myself, I have always found wire to tremendously restrict the reeds' vibration and expressive range. Those who do use wire all the time mention about WHERE to put the wire, only 2mm above the thread.
I have recently been using samples of cane shaped on the Nagamatsu #2 shaper and on very narrow staples. I feel the same way with these reeds as with wired reeds. Perhaps my dislike of this setup, very similar to wired reeds, means that those who like such setups will also like wiring.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: oboeruth29
Date: 2010-10-28 04:46
I make reeds for private students, and I am currently experimenting with the wire. I find it's extremely easy to make quick adjustments to my students reeds specifically pertaining to the opening of the reeds. I think it's super effective. I personally would not play using wire for myself because I feel that it ultimately constricts the sound slightly, as in, the cane cannot vibrate as naturally as if it does not have wire. I also don't need to make my reeds so easy like I have to for my students. I find that pinching down on the wire closes down the reeds very easily, enabling my students to play on a more robust reed that they would not otherwise be able to play on because the opening would be slightly too wide for their lips thus, too difficult for them. I taught a student on Monday and gave her a reed with a wire and she sounded like a million dollars and was able to play on it with ease. I feel like I am making giant leaps with her sound as a result of this experimenting that I am doing. 
Ruth B. Garcia
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2010-10-28 07:33
Yes, I would use a wire to close a reed that was too open.
I find trying to prop a reed open with wire to be an exercise in futility.
Note that there may well be a difference if the reed was wired originally (by the maker). In this case, propping a reed open may work. Since I only play on my own reeds which are unwired, it has never worked for me.
There is a way to prop reeds open by crimping the staple under the thread (parallel to the blades of the reed, about 2-3 mm back - use snipenose pliers and a loose mandrel) but I haven't done this for ages. It is easier to cut the thread, throw out the spent cane and make a new reed, though I admit it has taken me years to get to a level of proficiency where I can make a reed quickly and with confidence.
J.
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Author: myoboe
Date: 2010-11-01 15:29
This sounds like what I need. I have quite a few reeds that have openings too large for me. What kind of wire should I purchase ?
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2010-11-02 21:58
As mentioned above, I use 32 gauge hobbyist's beading/jewelry wire. Here in the USA it's available at hobbyist and art supply shops such as Hobby Lobby and Michaels.
It looks like this.
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2010-11-12 23:27
Hi,
I have been experimenting with wire.
How do you protect your lip from it - I find the wire uncomfortable and I am playing pretty much on the tip of th reed.
My reed is 69mm long.
Update, I put a piece of fish skin over the wire - it helped.
The wire helped a sharp reed play in tune - by slightly opening the aperture of the reed. The tone became more focused too - although the reed was more resistant and slightly less flexible. It also FLATTENED my upper register above octave B! When I used more traditional fingering - the notes were pretty much back in pitch.
I see why European players use such a tight embouchure - to bring up the pitch?!?!? etc...................
I used a .28 gauge which I found at home.
You really need to know where to place the wire and how tight to twist it - to get the best results ..............
If you really need that reed to work - wire might be an option before throwing the reed in the garbage.
Mark
Post Edited (2010-11-13 00:11)
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2010-11-13 04:30
My 2 cents: if a reed requires a wire to be open, it will not work, and usually the outcome will be an opening too open. The wire is there to sustain the opening and give strength to the back of the reed, not so much the opening. Also, a reed often has to be easier to have a wire....
Regards,
Howard
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2010-11-13 10:55
Hi Howard,
I am no expert on the use of wire. This is the first time.
I just opened the reed a tiny bit. The reed is quite playable.
This is the only scenario I would ever use a wire.
Mark
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2010-11-13 13:21
Theoretically speaking, it should pose no problems for long scrape reeds, as long as the blades don't separate at the tip when wired. I don't see why it can't be done, as you have proved!
Regards,
Howard
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2010-11-13 18:50
Hi Howard,
Just had my lesson today. I played the reed with the wire. it had a good core centered sound. It is just a bit more resistant than I usually play. If I was a second Oboe player - it might not be my first choice.
The sound projected well and the reed had GOOD PITCH STABILITY. My teacher liked it!
S0 ....... I figure if you have a pretty good reed - and the reed tends to close - a wire may be of great benefit - even for a long scrape american style reed.
Just be careful not to choke the reed - and/or create a reed with the blades are too open.
Mark
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Author: Wes
Date: 2010-11-15 21:32
With my latest batch of gouged oboe cane, I find that, if needed, a couple of turns of wire right up next to the thread can keep reeds from closing off too much and not affect the sound of the reed.
Without the wire, these closing off reeds often cannot be saved regardless of how one scrapes them. I would not use a wire in any other place on an oboe reed as the sound may be changed by the wire.
After trying many times, I cannot make stable enough cor anglais or oboe d'amore reeds without a wire, perhaps 4 or 5 mm from the thread. Good luck!
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2010-11-15 22:32
Mark --
To protect your lips from the wire, be sure to wrap it so the wire twist ends up on the side of the reed away from your bottom lip, and then clip the wire relatively short, and bend it downwards toward the staple/threads.
If you still run into it, well . . . that's an embouchure issue! ![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif)
Susan
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Author: Jeltsin
Date: 2010-11-16 07:23
I always use European style with a wire and just like you I think that the wire helps with the pitch stability.
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-11-16 10:22
I used to do American scrape when I was a student, but abandoned "windows" completely in favour of an elongated type of European scrape - it might look American sometimes, but really no windows or hump. Now, my reeds are more and more text-book German.
I have always found that reeds close too much in 3 circumstances:
1. really dry cane
2. Montreal or Ottawa dry-cold winters
3. (most important) tying beyond the staple end (even half a turn)
The third case is significant and bad: it will cause severe instability, but worse, the reed will tend to choke on you after only a few minutes, no matter how you scrape and no matter how you soak. It can be frustrating because those first few minutes can seem like the best reeds imaginable - and then just gump!
If the wire does the trick for you, great! For myself (this is one of those individual body physiognomy things that just don't apply to everyone), I prefer better tying (never allow sideways slipping/overlapping) and to make due with reeds that open more. I soften the opening with thinner gouge - long scrape on thin cane means instability which is why my scrape is pretty well pure German.
Best of luck!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2010-11-16 13:30
Interesting observations, Robin.
Last winter, I had terrible trouble with reeds closing up on me -- that's actually what prompted my wiring experiments. I put those reeds away, and when I came back to them this summer, they were just fine. I suspect the weather was the culprit. (Not looking forward to winter coming again!) Have you discovered any cure for this condition, other than wiring?
I also have a new reed that behaves like your "third case" example. At the outset, it seems like one of the best reeds I've ever had, but after just a little while, it starts closing up, or "choking," as you put it. It has done this since the very first time I played it. It lasts through a little bit of playing, and is wonderful, but then closes up as if it were the oldest, most-played-out reed in my box. Have you discovered a fix for this?
I buy reeds, BTW -- do not make them myself, but buy from the same person all the time. Usually, these reeds are very consistent, and very good, which makes these issues that I describe here all the more curious.
Susan
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Author: myoboe
Date: 2010-11-16 13:34
Hi Robin,
What do you mean by "never allow sideways slipping/overlapping" ? I find that if the blades of the cane do not overlap, the resulting reed will leak on the sides. The shaped cane I purchase do not always have clean edges.
Also, I am a bit puzzled whether putting wires on the reed opens it up, or closes it which is useful when the opening is too wide as was mentioned in one of the earlier postings (oboeruth29).
Thanks
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-11-16 16:06
I absolutely LOVE it when people say they play on purchased (finished) reeds! It gives me hope that the old notion is wrong where playing the oboe means it is fully necessary to make reeds.
I'm sorry to say that have found no fix for the "self-choking" reed issue. I have found plenty of causes, but fixing them is either impossible (e.g. windows dug too deep or with improper rails & spine) or impractical (retying is difficult and often pointless when the cane has molded to the staple).
In terms of using wire to compensate: I've never had any luck with it, so I gave up before bothering to master the technique.
This does not mean that your reed supplier is doing anything outright wrong: I'd expect that if you politely insist on better quality control and/or testing, then this will happen less often.
Best of luck!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
Post Edited (2010-11-16 19:57)
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-11-16 16:25
Wiring is supposed to let you control the opening as you like. I gave up the technique before I learned to master it, so I really can't help there.
In his book, Jay Light actually describes a process of controlling what he calls "slipping" (sideways overlapping). For me, regardless of the scraping technique, this has always spelled doom. The sound is usually warmer when it slips (nice) and stability is usually better on those infamous 1st 8va key notes. But choking happens much more and the reed just won't take my air pressure.
Leaks can be caused by improper shaping, but they are more often caused by tying too long. To say X mm length on a Y mm staple with a Z shaper is just a guideline. I see more and more stores on the internet emphasizing what I had always been taught (and have confirmed through experimentation): tie the cane so the blades close 1 or 2 thread winds before it reaches the end of the staple. This means a lot of "eye-balling" and using a sharp pencil to mark the staple's end so you don't tie past it (not even half a turn - better stop before than past).
Shaping cane is really easy, but it must be done carefully. Chances are, most producers just don't have time to ensure full quality control. Gouging cane is more difficult, but when the machine is set, your producer is more likely to give consistent results (consistently good or consistently bad!).
If you have been making your reeds for some time, I do recommend buying a shaper - some stores sell them 2nd hand and there should be no quality loss. Choosing a shape is done in 2 steps:
1. your first shaper: get the most average one you can find. I had been happily using my RDG -1 for over 20 years. Loud-mouths like me (very strong voice means lots of air pressure) might be better advised with an RDG -2 (wider). Your teacher might recommend something more suited you your particular needs.
2. moving on: get a few stores to send you samples and experiment until you know for sure.
There are LOTS of EXCELLENT shaper makers in the U.S. and Canada. You can't really go wrong with a big name (Adam's, RDG, Westwinds, Webber, etc.). I would stay away from the "straight shapers" where you don't have to fold the cane. The fold flattens the cane which changes the end-resulting silouhette. This silouhette is more important than any specific measurement. In fact, my favourite shaper of all is the Kunibert Michel (EXTREMELY hard to find - I just got 3 from oboe-shop in Germany): it is much thicker than the others (less flattening) and looks ugly, but WOW, what a wonderful end-result! I have purchased samples from Weber: not had time to try them yet but just looking at them seems to indicate the same characteristics as the KM, though narrower.
Best of luck!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2010-11-16 21:01
Hello Robin --
Well, I have only ever had the "third case" reed ONCE out of the hundreds of reeds I have bought from my supplier, so I am not concerned. It was just interesting to read your description, and your analysis of the cause.
The jury is out on the "winter reeds" issue. In any case, I doubt that the weather-related variables are the fault of my reedmaker -- unless he is somehow controlling the barometric pressure as well as his gouger and shaper!
Susan
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2010-11-16 21:55
I wired my second reed today to open slightly the reed aperture. Some improvement in pitch stability since opening is more stable- however, overall minimal change.
Mark
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-11-17 01:12
Ah, just a few reeds out of hundreds: you have a very good supplier indeed! I still say making good reeds is relatively easy, but for sure making them to suit other people's needs and tastes - especially in different geographical locations - is quite a feat.
Just as dry winters flatten reed blades, so do hot humid summers open them up like crazy. This was far worse when I lived in Montréal, where the extremes were more extreme than here in Ottawa. I'd often bite a cut in my upper lip in the summer on the same reeds that would close on me in the winter.
So if your reed supplier is sending you mostly good reeds, send her/him my compliments! Do continue to experiment on them yourself: you'll gain a lot of understanding for it.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2010-11-17 01:53
My -2 reeds worked like a charm in summer Japan but became so open in 24/7 summer Malaysia that i gave up on them eventually. Now i am convinced for myself that i need a narrower shape. (Maybe i will change my mind again tomorrow) Reeds reeds reeds!!!!
Howard
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-11-17 10:33
Your point about Japan to Malaysia makes me wonder: the seasonal extremes in Montreal are mild compared to travelling between continents... can you imagine touring in Malaysia, Israel, Wales and Finland?
So far, most cane most people buy comes from Southern France or California. I know oboe-shop sells cane from Argentina (or is it Chile?). Maybe cane grown in other countries, or even different materials completely might prove better for different geographic locations.
It is not outrageous to think of other woods than Arundo Donax: I saw tutorials on how to make a rudimentary sax/clarinet entirely of bamboo, instrument, reed and all. Its all a matter of getting the shape right and we have plenty of tools for that - if not in an oboe store, certainly in good woodworking shops.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2010-11-22 16:07
Hi,
I decided to wire some more reeds - since the winter dryness tends to close the reeds.
Pros: The pitch stability is excellent!
Cons: The upper register is stuffy and less sweet/free.
I am trying to fine a good (scrape) balance for the upper register with the wire.
So far I worked on 4 reeds with wires.
I found that if I twist the wire with pliers - the wire will snack and form a secure hook without the long braid. Depending upon the wire placement - it is very secure and you cane move it ever so slightly to adjust the tension.
Very interesting - this wire technique - it offers a lot of stability.
Back to more reed making .............................
Mark
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2010-11-28 17:17
Today I wired a new reed that was too open. In the past I would scrape and squeeze the reed to lessen the opening ..... with various outcomes and over a few days ...
Today I took the new reed with the large opening and used the wire to close the reed ..... Voila - the adjustment took immediately - a playable reed! In this case I slightly flattened the wire across the base of the reed.
The trick is too place the wire high enough to do the job and but not too high on the cane to smother upper vibrations - a few millimeters above the thread seems okay. And of course you can adjust the wire as the reed changes over time.
Why don't more American Oboists use wire?
Mark
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