 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-06-25 17:03
I only have one gouger blade (old machine, can't get more) so I'd like to read people's experience before I change the shape of the blade.
Comparing cane I shaped myself with "comparison cane" gouged+shaped by Roseau Chantant, I noticed that mine tends to give more open reeds. My cane is generally thinner on the sides than his, which is already "European" - supposedly thinner on the sides than standard American.
Did anyone ever play much with center vs. edge thickness?
Thanks
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2010-06-25 18:14
I once did an experiment and bought some gouged and shaped cane from Ke Xun. They offered two types of gouges, thinner or thicker sides. The result is with thinner sides the reeds were more closed. Recently, i have been having the same kind of result as you, so although with thinner sides, and 11.0 diameter cane, i would get reeds that pump up quite a lot occasionally. I believe this has a lot to do with the tie, where some shapes when tied without an overlap does tend to open up a bit more.
Regards,
Howard
p.s. i also think that perhaps with more precise pre gouging equipment and cane selection tools, Jordanov is able to get far more consistency with his gouging bed and cane combination. Although i use a precise caliper with diameter gauges to select cane that fit my 11.0 bed every single time, the results would still be inconsistent, and this can either sometimes be a result of cane warping, or simply...a non electronic gauge, one unlike udo heng's design (check reeds and stuff website), simply does not deliver as consistent a result...
Post Edited (2010-06-25 18:18)
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2010-06-25 23:19
You fellas are just reinforcing my feeling that I will not ever be able to make a decent reed myself! Why can't it be simpler!
Susan
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2010-06-26 09:24
Susan, it IS simple, if it's too open, you pinch them, if it's too closed, you squeeze them open or use a wire, if all fails, blow like crazy or just throw them away and make another one. Playing the oboe IS simple! =D =D =D =D
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-06-26 12:24
I have to agree with HautboisJJ.
Playing the oboe is a pleasure, not painful and making reeds really is easy. O.K. IT IS MUCH HARDER than the saxophone (no offense people, but its true). Nonetheless with just a little more devotion and love, the oboe will reward you more than you will reward it.
I haven't had time to fill-in the details yet, but take a look at my web-site:
http://robin-hautbois.users.sourceforge.net/
I don't know your level of experience, but many on this site are professionals or at that level and asking each other advanced questions.
This forum and any printed materials or DVD will never replace a living teacher actually looking at your reeds. This teacher will naturally lead you in her/his style of reed making.... which might not actually be the one for you.... but at least you'll have a good start. One important reason for this discrepency is that body physionomy is a huge factor in why one person's reeds are very different from another's.
Some will react against the following, but I maintain that making oboe reeds is easy. It's a matter of understanding the physics and applying them without any degree of exception. For example, regardless of the scraping style I used - yes I have done American scrape in the past - there are 2 things about tying (binding) the reeds that are absolute musts:
1. NEVER tie past the end of the staple (pull the cane down as much as needed)
2. "slipping" (sideways overlapping) of the blades has always resulted for me in choking reeds with soggy response and limited dynamic range.
Also, I don't know how well founded this is or if its just coincidental, but most of my acquaintances and I agree that making reeds on a rainy day is a waste of time and cane.
So my encouragements - don't get discouraged and you'll get it!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2010-06-26 15:14
Hello Robin --
Well, my complaint about it not being simple enough was made a little bit tongue-in-cheek. The wee joke, what?
I am (or have been) pretty much a confirmed reed-buyer, and have gotten along quite well on that basis. While I am not a "professional" oboist, I am a relatively accomplished oboist, and certainly not a novice.
In fact, I am playing SO MUCH these days that I can see the efficacy of being able to put my reeds together myself. I do know how to tie, and I can certainly copy some else's scrape. Where I founder time after time is in getting the knife sharp enough. Plus, my aged eyes and hands fail me in the wrong light or at the wrong time of day.
So I default to buying -- and I am ever so grateful for the wonderful reedmakers whose work has allowed me to become the player that I am.
Susan
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-06-26 15:46
I'm glad to read it and I apologize for not catching on to the joke!
I'm mostly relieved to read that someone (you) has been able to play on store-bought reeds in a very significant way. I have been making my own since my 2nd year and have never bought any after that. From the comments I was reading on this forum, I was under the impression that purchased reeds were never satisfactory. I have always belived this idea to be ridiculous, so I'm happy you proved it wrong!
As for knife sharpness, as a student I had that problem for one and only one reason: good stones were not to be found in my areas! There is simply no alternative: expensive Arkansas or Ceramic stones are the only way (leather strop or what have you are good for finishing).
Best of luck!
Cheers!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2010-06-26 16:33
Susan, you know i was kidding yes when i said 'simple'? =) Anyways i must say that as long as a reed functions (check out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HerWoZk9fhI&feature=related, even she herself finds it amazing that she can so easily adapt to a reed that first looked 'bad'ly made...), it will work, and thou shall put down thy knife and start blowin' instead of scrapin'.
Regards,
Howard
Post Edited (2010-06-26 16:41)
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-07-01 16:45
I'm just curious as to people's general experience in terms of opening and stability (with the infamous Loree notes) versus thinning towards the side.
I've never actually seen/handled any other gougers than my own, so I'm guessing its a single radius machine.... anyway, the bed is. I was hand-made for a Toronto oboist (Bermann, Baumann??) in the 1950s.
As for the blade, I shape it myself, eye-balling it with semi-circle radius gages.... and I do that on the flat of the blade, so at a 45-deg. angle with the bed. This means the trigonometry is getting pretty darned complex to measure and describe.
All in all, I get about 0.05mm difference between the center and the edge (which gets shaved off when shaping, even at the tip). I've always gotten good, stable and predictable reeds with it.
Thanks
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2010-07-01 17:24
Usually when people measure "the sides" they check just below the ears of a piece of shaped cane. Naturally, depending on the shaper, every person might have different measurements for a piece of cane that is gouged on the same machine.
In order to find out whether you have a double radius or a single radius is to look at it and see if the bed can be offset, often times by screws on the bottom of the machine. Pull back the clips and check to see if your blade is straight down the middle of the bed or if it's offset somehow.
Not sure what your gouge is but .05 is pretty darn small difference, and implies that your channels are pretty thick, and your rails/sides must be very very thick. Back in Tabuteau's day, they used .60 in the middle and .40 on the sides. Mack used closer to .60 and .45, and a bit thicker later down the line. Today, most people use around .60 and .45 to .50 on the sides,
If your gouging machine is a single radius, you will want the curvature of the blade to be approximately the same shape as your guide, except the entire blade is a hair bigger. Your curvature should be almost exactly circular, and not elliptical. So if your guide is 10.5mm diameter, your blade should be closer to 11mm or 11.5mm diameter. It's important that the blade curvature match the guide or else your chips will cut unevenly and you will have an imbalance of push to pull forces (the blade pulls the chip up, the guide pushes the cane down into the bed, etc.)
If your gouging machine is a double radius, you will want the curvature of the blade to be similar to the guide as well, however, the blade diameter needs to be smaller (9.5 or so on a 10.5 guide), however your blade should be more elliptical. As to the "exact ideal elliptical shape", that's a mystery, and what people commonly refer to as "the holy grail of gouges". There's no way of knowing exactly, and therefore you just have to do trial and error.
In any case, the way to find a "working" curve is simple. Make two or three reeds, each from a piece of cane that has roughly the same diameter, and after all of the refining, if you still find that it sags in the upper register, make the sides thicker (if you have a double radius machine) or regrind the curve to a smaller diameter (if you have a single radius). If the three reeds come out open, "hard sounding", and glassy, thin the sides (w/double radius) to get a warmer sound or regrind the curve to a bigger diameter (for a single radius).
One final warning, if you have a single radius machine, come up with a system to make sure your blade is exactly in the center, or else all of your work will be for naught.
Cooper
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
Post Edited (2010-07-01 21:25)
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2010-07-01 20:17
...or naught.
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-07-01 21:31
OOOooooooh thanks for this!
I'll definitely look into and try all this. So it looks like I need to thin the sides even more.
Yeah, your last warning is exactly why I'm asking the question! Right now, centering is done by backlighting the bed with no cane and then measuring the shavings, once the cane is almost fully gouged.
My blade can be moved for a sideways offset. But there are so many screws and bolts on that thing (including centering the bed with respect to the plane, tilt, yaw and roll) that I surmized it was just another way to ensure blade centering. It looks like 3/4 machines pictured at RDG, oboe-shop.com and every other place this forum has mentioned.
A real headache to adjust that thing. But from what I've read, new machines are not much easier, so I'll keep the 1.5k$ for something else.
Thanks again for all that insight! I'll put it into practice in the next few weeks.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2010-07-01 21:53
Right, every machine can have the blade offset, but they're not made for this, and doing this by merely "offsetting" the blade in it's slot doesn't do the job, because the blade needs to be centered with the guide.
The best way to just make sure you get your blade completely centered is to first place it by eye. Then, pick 10 pieces of perfectly even curved cane. Put one in the bed do a couple of swipes, and measure from side to side until it measures evenly on both sides.
Cooper
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
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