 The Oboe BBoard
|
Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-06-16 10:50
I have been trained using, making and fine tuning American style long scrape reeds. Recently, I bought some Neuranter European short scrape reeds at Medium strength and didnt realize how hard they were to even make a squeak out of them.
I proceeded to attempt to make them easier by scraping the tip and blend in the "heart", dont know if there is one...and even tried to scrape the short back. This only had some or minimal effect on the reed hardness.
I was reading a post about," Modifying European scraped reeds to American scraped reeds
Author: myoboe (---.netvigator.com - ISP in Central District, 00 Hong Kong)
Date: 2009-04-13 15:03". Then I realize the European gouge may be much thicker than the American style gouge. So, it is either going to take a long time for me to scrape the European style reed down to make it easier to play on, but then again I may be wrong.
These reeds are also damn expensive, i dont want to continue scraping and ruin the entire reed. Although, it was damn hard to play, the reed has good projection, loud and has a nice dark sound. Because it is hard, the response and resistance does not work for me right now.
Anyone out there can help with making a French style short scrape European reed easier ?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-06-16 11:50
Make the top 2mm of the tip thin and make the entire length of the U scrape fairly long (around 11mm). There is still a raised heart down the centre that terminates around 2mm from the tip (and blends in), but not as pronounced as the spine running down a W scrape reed.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jhoyla
Date: 2010-06-16 17:39
Before you start scraping them down, soak them really well all the way to the thread, and then squeeze the tip down onto a plaque.
Soak for several minutes in warm/hot water.
Once the reed is soaked and flexible, you should be able to squeeze quite hard at the extreme tip but don't squeeze the bark at all!!! NEVER squeeze close to the bark.
squeeze the extreme tip first onto a convex plaque for a minute or more, and then move onto a flat plaque and gently squeeze some more. Try the reed in the instrument frequently as you go.
You will be surprised how quickly this makes the reed playable.
Leave the reed quite hard initially and let it soften up with playing, otherwise it won't last long.
Next time you play it will be hard again - so do the squeezing process again. After two or three times you should have a really easy, responsive reed.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-06-16 22:45
Attachment: French Short Scrape.JPG (25k)
Here is a pix.
I have seen some nice pix on reeds, I am not a very good photo buff, so had trouble adjusting the lighting. Can anyone help with this ?
As u can see the reed is a W scrape with the bottom of W flattened out. I am not sure if it is U, as there is a spine down the middle. Maybe a flattened out W....maybe there is a better technical word for it.
Thx for the tips.
Can anyone post a reed anatomy for this kind of European or French reed ? Like what Schuring has done in his book for the American W?
http://www.public.asu.edu/~schuring/Oboe/diagram.html
Post Edited (2010-06-16 22:56)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-06-16 23:03
Have you got Leon Goosens' book 'The Oboe'? There's a photo of a reed in there which has a U scrape, and lit from behind to show up the different thicknesses of the scraped area.
The base of the U is usually much more rounded than the one in your photo, similar in shape as the scrape seen on some clarinet/sax reeds where the bark hasn't been removed straight across the base of the scrape (unfiled).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-06-17 02:06
Chris P:
Thx for the info. Do you also have the approx measurements for the European reed ? Eg tip meansurements from the heart (2mm? Even on the sides and corners for the tip? ) and the heart to the bark ? At least when I start scraping, i wont be accidentally scraping parts that shouldnt be touched. Is the heart suppose to be thicker than the back ? And does the heart extend to the sides of reed.
Unfortunately, I dont have the Leon Goosen's book. If they are good photos, would appreciate if you could scan and post it here, so I know what I am dealing with.
Thx for the help.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-06-17 04:33
jhoyla:
The squeeze method is an interesting one. I have soaked the reed overnight, but didnt use plaques to squueze, and couldnt get it to soften up enough for me to blow on it wthout turning blue after a couple of bars.
I will try soaking in hot water and do the plaques and squeeze technique that you prescribed.
I like this non destructive method !
Thx
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jhoyla
Date: 2010-06-17 05:50
Be slow and gentle - don't crack the reed! start squeezing at the extreme tip and gently "roll" your fingers towards the heart.
Don't forget to play-test as often as you can during your squeezing process, and stop as soon as it is hard-but-playable. You can play it down from here.
J.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-06-17 06:22
Jhoyla:
Yes, it made the reed that already had some scrapes on it considerably easier to play on.
I found if I didnt stick the convex plaque too far back, then I can just squeeze on the scraped portion and not touch the bark. The flat plaque is a good final "squeeze" to get the reed not open up as much.
The squeeze technique still preserves the dark sound and loudness.
Neuranter is a new cane for me. When I get the gouged cane, I hope it will be less problematic for me to scrape my reeds using the American style. They did recommend to order medium thickness and strength for American style reeds.
Thx for the tips and help !
Post Edited (2010-06-17 06:23)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-06-17 07:47
Chris P:
After trying JHoyla's "squeeze" remedy, it worked well for a reed which I have scraped down some.
Unfortuntely, I still have to scrape down the reeds which I didnt touch, as after the squeeze remedy, they were only a little easier, but not a whole lot.
Hence, you said the tip is 2mm from the tip, how about the tip corners, is it also 2mm? or I have to angle the knife to work on the corners.
The spine ends about 2mm from the tip. Will I need to blend in the spine in the middle of the tip ? Otherwise, I may encounter a small step.
I see the heart under the light, how far does it extend to the back ?
And do I need to take off some cane from the back ? And do I have to take more cane off the back compared to the heart ? I probably need to also have to take off some cane off the spine, a little anyway. Since the untouched reeds are already unresponsive and very resistant, so I may have to take off cane everywhere.
Thx for any tips u can share,
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ceri
Date: 2010-06-17 20:21
I live in France and my French teacher used to make all my reeds which ressemble the picture you have posted with a straight (as opposed to a rounded) base. I think French reeds are considerably harder than American reeds and require slightly different playing techniques. (My teacher dismissively likens American reeds to playing the recorder).
I have no knowledge of American reeds so can't offer any useful comparisons (and nor would I claim to have exhaustive knowledge) but I will do any of the following with a reed that is too hard.
Gently squeeze it shut if it appears to be very open. (I don't bother doing this on the plaque, just gently with my fingers).
If the reed still remains too open, you can make it more closed by scraping the sides (this will also darken the tone a little).
Lightly rescrape the whole reed.
The tip should have an inverted crescent on it and you can make the reed easier to play by thinning the tip and the "ears." This is useful if you are having trouble starting notes and playing detached notes. However, beware that if you thin them too much then the 3rd octave notes will no longer work.
I'm not too sure what exactly you refer to with the terms "heart" and "back." The tip should blend into the next part (heart?) without a noticeable "hump." If there is a noticeable hump, then you can try making it less noticeable but proceed with a great deal of caution as this will alter the pitch of the reed.
If only the lower octave is not responsive, scrape the base of the reed.
If the higher notes won't come out, clip the end of the reed. (This will make the reed harder again so the risk is that you end up with no reed because you thin the tip to make it easier, clip it because the high notes won't come out, thin the tip because it's too hard etc.)
To play on a reed like this, you need a very firm embouchure (which doesn't alter for different pitches) - you will find that these reeds are very stable intonation-wise - and a lot of breath support.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-06-17 23:28
You said:
"I live in France and my French teacher used to make all my reeds which ressemble the picture you have posted with a straight (as opposed to a rounded) base. I think French reeds are considerably harder than American reeds and require slightly different playing techniques. (My teacher dismissively likens American reeds to playing the recorder)."
(I remember when I first started oboe in UK, their U shaped reeds were also incredibly hard too. I blew till I was blue for the most part and my lips were almost always swollen. And yes, the American reeds are easy and you dont have to put too much work blowing or adjusting embrochures and taking huge amounts of air in your lungs for breath support, but then you can just concentrate of the playing and the music. Takes one BIG variable out from the equation. That is one of the reason I switched to American style reeds.)
You said:
"If the reed still remains too open, you can make it more closed by scraping the sides (this will also darken the tone a little). "
(Do you mean the sides of the entire reed or just the tip area ?)
You said:
"Lightly rescrape the whole reed."
(Can you rescrape the spine ?)
You said:
"The tip should have an inverted crescent on it and you can make the reed easier to play by thinning the tip and the "ears." This is useful if you are having trouble starting notes and playing detached notes. However, beware that if you thin them too much then the 3rd octave notes will no longer work."
(Inverted crescent is there, but what are the actual measurements from the tip ? Middle about 2mm, how about the tip corners and sides distance from the tip? I take it, this may mean the "ears" you are talking about ?)
You said:
"I'm not too sure what exactly you refer to with the terms "heart" and "back." The tip should blend into the next part (heart?) without a noticeable "hump." If there is a noticeable hump, then you can try making it less noticeable but proceed with a great deal of caution as this will alter the pitch of the reed."
(The "heart" is the region after the tip which is noticeably thicker. In American reeds, you generally try to stay away from the heart as soon as you get most of the bark off. And the spine, is definitely a "no scrape" zone. This may be different from the French cut. That is why I am asking so much detail. I will need to trim down the reed. I dont want to trim too much then it becomes irrecoverable. I will need to stay away from the no scrape zones, too and what are these areas ? The French reeds are not cheap, would be a waste if i didnt know what I was doing and completely ruined a perfectly good reed otherwise.)
You said:
"If only the lower octave is not responsive, scrape the base of the reed."
(For the most part, lower octave is unresponsive, down from G. Good tip, I will try this procedure.)
You said:
"If the higher notes won't come out, clip the end of the reed. (This will make the reed harder again so the risk is that you end up with no reed because you thin the tip to make it easier, clip it because the high notes won't come out, thin the tip because it's too hard etc.)"
(Higher notes will come out, as long as you take a big breath and play them. Yes, I hesitate cutting the tip and making the reed hard again especially if I had spent so much time getting reed to be playable only to get it hard again.)
You said:
"To play on a reed like this, you need a very firm embouchure (which doesn't alter for different pitches) - you will find that these reeds are very stable intonation-wise - and a lot of breath support."
(I dont deny, that the French reeds give a very nice sound. But, I need to get it playable so that I can at least enjoy them.)
(Thx for all your tips. Would appreciate if you could help me with some detailed anatomy of the French cut reed so that I can go ahead and proceed to scrape with extreme caution.)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-06-18 00:10
I used to be a professional, but I stopped playing while I reoriented my career towards engineering. A while ago, I started again with almost no strength left in my lips or my jaw (a few years without real practice). This means I had to start again with VERY easy reeds and fight the frustration of not playing like I used to.
When I started again, I decided to use engineering methodology to find the best way to get reeds to:
1. be easy to play
2. sound dark and warm
3. play in tune and with stable notes
4. offer a wide dynamic range
5. allow easy staccato, even in soft low notes.
Every single oboist I had ever known in my student and professional life (some being among the best in N.Americal) used to say having all of these together is impossible: you must find a happy compromise....
.... well, I succeeded in getting all 5 critera together! AND they are relatively easy to make. I use exclusively European scraped reeds, but I make my own.
There are a few catches though:
1. the definition of a good reed is very different from one person to another
2. you have to choose staple size and shaper profile in accordance with your body characteristics
3. what makes the reed works is the process of reed-making, not the final appearance
4. everything done to the cane BEFORE scraping is just as important as the scraping!
All the advice you read in this topic is good, but it remains meaningless untill you actually get it going. The only ways you'll get good reeds are to find a good teacher or to experiment a lot - yes spend a lot of money!
There is a big problem, however, if you start with purchased reeds is that the gouge (cane thickness) might be wrong for you, the shape might be wrong for you, the staple might be wrong and the way it is tied can be simply bad.
In another topic, I summarized my process (the main parts only):
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=10&i=15666&t=15516
Good luck!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-06-18 03:27
Robin:
I read your post dated 2010-05-29 12:58 under topic of "oversoaking reeds".
Being an musician turned engineer yourself, you must know that engineers are all about detailed specifications.
Since you use the European scrape, do you have some kind of detailed specification for the European cut like how Martn Schuring does it for the American scrape ? Web ref:
http://www.public.asu.edu/~schuring/Oboe/diagram.html
I am in the process of making my bought reeds which are French cut easier to play on and I dont want to make a grave mistake. As anything I do will ultimately be irreversible, because scraping is a destructive process.
Thx for any helps and tips you can share.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-06-18 10:05
You're completely right that engineering is all about precision and specification. However, to do so for oboe reeds would require a book the size of the Webster's Dictionnary, especially since the makeup of good reeds will change quite dramatically from one body type to another and even from one oboe to another - though there are a few general guidelines common to all.
Remember that you're not working steel or polymers here, you're working with a very soft wood - its not even wood - that is acts as if it were still alive. Perhaps I'll put up a PDF on ScribD or something, but that will take a while.
In the meantime, you can look at:
http://www.le-roseau.ca/special_en.php
http://www.oboe-shop.de/catalog/index.phpcPath=85&sort=3a&language=en
=> but, in my opinion, keep away from books that make the back thinner than the middle.
To illustrate why I value the process of reed making more than the final result: Often, I have made reeds on the exact same staples, with cane of the same density, same radius, same gague, same shape and yet they opened so differently and responded so differently I had to scrape them very differently. They neither played nor sounded the same in the end, but they were very satisfactory nonetheless..... no matter what scraping style is adopted, all oboists will say you need to practice and become good on reeds that behave differently: that's just plain old practice.
If you're a new player, or if you don't have the mouth strength of others, I'd suggest a tube radius of 11mm to keep the opening closed and gouge of approx. 0.59mm to avoid having to scrape too much - I have used up to 0.63 but I find the less we scrape the cane, the more stable it is and the better (darker) it sounds..... some will jump at reading that! French players will say otherwise, but in N. America we usually find that a total length 70mm or under is best for stability, especially if you're using a Loree. I think RDG 1 or -2 are happy mediums, but the shape is VERY important and should be chosen in response to your physiology. I own 3 shapers, have tried 7 and prefer the german Kunibert Michel, though it is extremely hard to get.
At this point, you really need the guidance of a trusted oboist in person because working on reeds cannot be replaced by reading about them.
Good luck!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-06-18 11:05
Robin:
RobinDesHautbois wrote:
>
> At this point, you really need the guidance of a trusted oboist
> in person because working on reeds cannot be replaced by
> reading about them.
>
> Good luck!
>
Since I am trained in the American tradition, it is very unlikely I find someone like you who use the French cut in N.America. (I noticed your Canadian server).
So, that is why I ask anyone and everyone for any specifications and measurements for the French style reed. I am merely trying to do a quick fix to get my hard Neuranter French scraped reeds that I bought, to play. I am not looking to cut reeds using a French cut. Since, I have bought the French cut reeds, I might as well enjoy them, rather than let them sit in my reed box indefinitely because they are too damn hard to get a squeak out of them.
Anything you can tell me about the construction of the French cut reed will help me with my quick fix quest.
Thank you for the responses, tips and help.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-06-18 16:38
AHA, I didn't know about your experience: you also answered my question about shaper tips. So in this answer, please include all your reed-making experience.
To simply "soften" them, I would proceed as follows (this will also ensure a darker sound) - in very general terms:
Your reeds might be hard because they are too open? When you follow what is written below, your reeds might go unstable if they are too long. I'll explain what I do to shorten them.
You can lengthen the back by removing the bark to about 1/2 to 2/3 of the length of the cane. You can do this in small steps: unlike American-scrape, European style allows you to re-work the overall shape of the lay (scrape) - even if you need to cut the tip by 1-3mm and redo the blend completely.
A natural thick W will occur as you move the knife from more or less the middle of the back all the way to the front of the heart *on the sides*. Be sure that the back is never thinner than the heart (middle 1/3 of the length of the reed). If the reed remains too hard or open, thin down the W (a little bit at a time) until it looks more like a squashed U. You can also work the front of the heart to make the blend more gradual. On a few reeds, this process has ended-up looking like some pictures people have posted on Dutch and Viennese reeds (almost no bark an straight cut).
Also, I agree with all the advice about pinching.
Going from long-thick W to U is a natural consequence of what you do to soften the reed as you "back-up" the lay of the reed, try not to consider it as different scraping styles.
If you do decide to cut the tip short - usually because the sound buzzes or because it gets weak & unstable - then I usually start by moving the blend backwards and then cut it. This protects the tip and usually improves the sound.
I hope this helps!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ceri
Date: 2010-06-18 20:32
Hautbois-français
By scraping the sides I mean the sides of the reed (not the tip). My teacher occasionally slices a little off the sides (holding the reed vertically and slicing down) but I have never dared to try this.
You can rescrape everything (including the spine and the heart), if you rescrape everything evenly you will make the reed easier but at the expense of tone. (My 10-year-old daughter has just started learning the oboe and this is what her reeds are like - easy to blow but rather "quacky" tone).
I would be wary of just scraping the spine/heart as this may change the pitch of the reed.
You're right about "ears" meaning tip corners. I'm not sure that I can give you precise measurements as it depends how wide your reed is to start with. When I was learning to make reeds my teacher used to get me to draw the inverted crescent on to the reed - it is a very wide, shallow crescent. If the centre is about 2mm then the maximum depth in the corners is probably only about 4 mm.
One thing my teacher occasionally does is something that he said a French oboist who had worked in Canada for a while showed him. If you imagine your reed divided into three and the top third is the part that is scraped, then in the bottom third you can scrape two "windows." This does make some reeds easier to play but you really need someone to show you were to put them and how to angle them (and I haven't got any like that at the moment so I can't even offer to take a photo).
As others have said, the ideal thing would be for someone to show you. When I first started trying to make reeds I was obsessed by measurements as well but have since come to the conclusion that each reed is slightly different and you have to adjust accordingly.
I now make my own reeds and my current preference is something of a cross between an English and a French scrape - I scrape slightly longer with a slightly longer tip and a more pronounced heart.
One last thing, my teacher has a poor opinion of most of the French reeds that you can buy in shops. When I took some English reeds in to my lesson he was very favourably impressed and said that if it were possible to get reeds of that quality in France, he wouldn't feel he had to teach all his pupils how to make their own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-06-18 23:37
Ceri: First off, I'd like to thank you for your input and comments. I have posted my reply in brackets and caps. Please see below:
ceri wrote:
> Hautbois-français
> By scraping the sides I mean the sides of the reed (not the
> tip). My teacher occasionally slices a little off the sides
> (holding the reed vertically and slicing down) but I have never
> dared to try this.
(THIS SOUNDS MIGHTY DANGEROUS. I DONT THINK YOU MEAN "slicing down" LIKE HOW YOU WOULD WHEN SHAPING ON A SHAPER TIP. I THINK IT IS LIKE SCRAPING LIGHTLY ON THE SIDES OF THE READ ON ALL 4 SIDES OF IT, NO ?)
>
> You can rescrape everything (including the spine and the
> heart), if you rescrape everything evenly you will make the
> reed easier but at the expense of tone. (My 10-year-old
> daughter has just started learning the oboe and this is what
> her reeds are like - easy to blow but rather "quacky" tone).
(I USED TO GET ENGLISH REEDS BACK IN THE DAYS WHEN I WAS A KID FROM B&H, THEY WERE "ALL "QUACKY" AND WERE MEDIUM TO HARD STRENGTH. I THINK THE ENGLISH REEDS BEING "QUACKY" HAD EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE CONSTRUCTION. THE FRENCH REEDS LOOK DIFFERENT, THAT IS WHY I AM SPENDING SO MUCH TIME TO UNDERSTAND THE FRENCH CONSTRUCTION. THE ENGLISH REEDS DONT EVEN HAVE A VISIBLE SPINE DOWN THE SCRAPED PORTION OF THE REED, MAYBE A LITTLE RAISED TAIL TOWARDS AND NEAR THE BARK. OR SCRAPED DOWN THIN. I HAD SAVED REEDS FROM ABOUT 40 YEARS AGO FROM THE ENGLISH TRADITION THAT IS HOW I KNOW THEY ARE SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT.)
>
> I would be wary of just scraping the spine/heart as this may
> change the pitch of the reed.
>
> You're right about "ears" meaning tip corners. I'm not sure
> that I can give you precise measurements as it depends how wide
> your reed is to start with. When I was learning to make reeds
> my teacher used to get me to draw the inverted crescent on to
> the reed - it is a very wide, shallow crescent. If the centre
> is about 2mm then the maximum depth in the corners is probably
> only about 4 mm.
>
> One thing my teacher occasionally does is something that he
> said a French oboist who had worked in Canada for a while
> showed him. If you imagine your reed divided into three and the
> top third is the part that is scraped, then in the bottom third
> you can scrape two "windows." This does make some reeds easier
> to play but you really need someone to show you were to put
> them and how to angle them (and I haven't got any like that at
> the moment so I can't even offer to take a photo).
(I DONT KNOW WHAT 2 WINDOWS WOULD DO TO A SHORT SCRAPED REED, THEN IT WOULD ALSO THIN OUT THE BACK TOO MUCH COMPARED TO THE HEART, AS WHAT ROBIN SAID, THAT COULD BE A NO SCRAPE ZONE !)
>
> As others have said, the ideal thing would be for someone to
> show you. When I first started trying to make reeds I was
> obsessed by measurements as well but have since come to the
> conclusion that each reed is slightly different and you have to
> adjust accordingly.
(IF YOU ARE IN THE WESTERN WORLD AND LOTS OF OBOE FRIENDS AND ACADEMICS AROUND, SURE YOU CAN FIND SOMEONE WHO KNOWS TO SHOW YOU. TROUBLE IS, I DONT HAVE THIS LUXURY IM MY PRESENT LOCATION.)
>
> I now make my own reeds and my current preference is something
> of a cross between an English and a French scrape - I scrape
> slightly longer with a slightly longer tip and a more
> pronounced heart.
>
> One last thing, my teacher has a poor opinion of most of the
> French reeds that you can buy in shops. When I took some
> English reeds in to my lesson he was very favourably impressed
> and said that if it were possible to get reeds of that quality
> in France, he wouldn't feel he had to teach all his pupils how
> to make their own.
Post Edited (2010-06-19 00:27)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-06-19 00:26
Robin:
Thx again for a detailed description of what you would do.
You said: "Your reeds might be hard because they are too open? When you follow what is written below, your reeds might go unstable if they are too long. I'll explain what I do to shorten them."
(THE FRENCH REED IS 70MM, SO NOT LONGER THAN USUAL.)
You said: "You can lengthen the back by removing the bark to about 1/2 to 2/3 of the length of the cane. You can do this in small steps: unlike American-scrape, European style allows you to re-work the overall shape of the lay (scrape) - even if you need to cut the tip by 1-3mm and redo the blend completely."
(I TAKE THIS TO MEAN, LENGTHEN THE BACK AND PRESERVE A VISIBLE SPINE, RIGHT ? AND NOT SCRAPE THE LENGTHENED BACK TOO THIN COMPARED TO THE HEART, WHICH MEANS I AM NOT OPENING WINDOWS, AM I RIGHT >)
You said: "A natural thick W will occur as you move the knife from more or less the middle of the back all the way to the front of the heart *on the sides*. Be sure that the back is never thinner than the heart (middle 1/3 of the length of the reed). If the reed remains too hard or open, thin down the W (a little bit at a time) until it looks more like a squashed U. You can also work the front of the heart to make the blend more gradual. On a few reeds, this process has ended-up looking like some pictures people have posted on Dutch and Viennese reeds (almost no bark an straight cut)."
(OK, THIS PART ANSWERS ABOUT THICKNESS OF THE LENGTHENED BACK. "squashed" U, I TAKE TO MEAN, A STRAIGHT EDGE IN THE MIDDLE AND THE EDGES OR SIDES ARE VEERING UPWARDS SLIGHTLY AS IF U ARE LEAVING SOME BARK BEHIND ON THE SIDES?)
You said: "Also, I agree with all the advice about pinching.
Going from long-thick W to U is a natural consequence of what you do to soften the reed as you "back-up" the lay of the reed, try not to consider it as different scraping styles."
(PINCHING IS A VERY SHORT TERM QUICK FIX, NOT PERMANENT FIX. IT IS PROBABLY THE SAME FOR ALL STYLES OF CUTS. I TEND TO THINK, NO MATTER WHAT, MAKING THE REED SOMEWHAT PLAYABLE MORE THAN A FEW BARS, I'D PROBABLY NEED TO SCRAPE SOME CANE OFF. THE "WHERE" IS THE KEY FOR A CONSTRUCTION THAT I AM NOT FAMILIAR WITH.)
You said: "If you do decide to cut the tip short - usually because the sound buzzes or because it gets weak & unstable - then I usually start by moving the blend backwards and then cut it. This protects the tip and usually improves the sound."
(PROBABLY WONT NEED TO CLIP IT DOWN YET. ALTHOUGH, IN MY INITIAL SCRAPES, FIRST THING I DID WAS TO MOVE THE BLEND A LITTLE BACK AND THEN THIINNED DOWN THE TIP, SIDES AND CORNERS. NOW I NEED TO BE MORE ADVENTUROUS AND MOVE THE BACK DOWN TO 1/2 TO 2/3 AND SEE WHAT THAT DOES. THIS WILL FORCE THE VIBRATIONS TO TRAVERSE DOWN THE REED WITH A LONGER BACK, WHICH COULD MAKE THE REED SOFTER, IT MAKES SENSE CONSIDERING THE PHYSICS OF IT.)
I would really appreciate if you could take the time to do up some drawings like you said. That will be a lot of help. At least, I know where all the "no fly" zones are.
Just on the side: I retired as an engineer in Si Valley, Ca. Like u, also a professional musician. So, I am sure you can empathize with my being a stickler for details, getting things right and making an error is never an option. That is what you get with an engineer cum musician mix. To add to the mix, I am also trained as an IFR pilot....
Post Edited (2010-06-19 00:31)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-06-19 01:38
Holy Toledo, an oboist, an engineer and a pilot?!?!
I'll do drawings in the morning: bad headache all day. But I just had to salute a fellow multi-disciplinarian!
As for pinching... I consider it both a long and short term fix. My favourite reeds, both for performance and sound, "snap back": I like a harsh crow. This might be because I am loud-spoken and have lots of air pressure. My best reeds are too open to play well when I soak them the first time in the day. After pinching and playing a few minutes, I leave them alone for a few other minutes, then soak and play again. This closes them and they are just perfect. otherwise, they are just too weak for me and they "wobble" when I do dynamics.
But this is for my physionomy. I can`t speak for anyone else.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ceri
Date: 2010-06-19 13:16
Hautbois français, I shall adopt your practice of using capitals/normal script
You wrote:
"THIS SOUNDS MIGHTY DANGEROUS. I DONT THINK YOU MEAN "slicing down" LIKE HOW YOU WOULD WHEN SHAPING ON A SHAPER TIP. I THINK IT IS LIKE SCRAPING LIGHTLY ON THE SIDES OF THE READ ON ALL 4 SIDES OF IT, NO ?)"
My teacher does slice down like when shaping on a shaper tip. I have never attempted this anc content myself with scraping on all four sides of the reed.
"THE FRENCH REEDS LOOK DIFFERENT, THAT IS WHY I AM SPENDING SO MUCH TIME TO UNDERSTAND THE FRENCH CONSTRUCTION. THE ENGLISH REEDS DONT EVEN HAVE A VISIBLE SPINE DOWN THE SCRAPED PORTION OF THE REED, MAYBE A LITTLE RAISED TAIL TOWARDS AND NEAR THE BARK. OR SCRAPED DOWN THIN. I HAD SAVED REEDS FROM ABOUT 40 YEARS AGO FROM THE ENGLISH TRADITION THAT IS HOW I KNOW THEY ARE SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT."
I also thought my first English reed was very different from my normal French reeds. My teacher said they had more in common with each other than either do with the American long scrape. I find the English reeds much easier to play but less stable intonation-wise and with a brighter tone than the French ones.
"I DONT KNOW WHAT 2 WINDOWS WOULD DO TO A SHORT SCRAPED REED, THEN IT WOULD ALSO THIN OUT THE BACK TOO MUCH COMPARED TO THE HEART, AS WHAT ROBIN SAID, THAT COULD BE A NO SCRAPE ZONE !)"
I don't think I explained this clearly. The 2 windows that you can add are not in contact with the scraped bit of the reed at all (there is a bit of non-scraped reed between the base of the reed and the windows). I don't know why they should work but they do. However, as I said, I think you really need to see one to understand what I am talking about.
I agree with Robin des hautbois that the W can move naturally into a U as you scrape the reed to "weaken" it. French reeds are always scraped diagonally (never straight as I think some English people do) which is why you end up with a spine in the middle.
As Robin des hautbois says you can lengthen the whole scrape even on a completely finished reed. This is likely to lower the pitch but will not (usually) change the tonal quality of the reed.
My experience of French reeds is that there are no real "no-go" areas but there are areas where you should proceed with extreme caution. The heart is one of them (it changes the pitch), the mid point of the tip is another (it stops the high notes working). Everything else is really a question of compromise.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-06-19 14:43
Attachment: English L French R.JPG (11k)
Ceri:
I did notice that the French reed has more of a diagonal scrape and the midpoint of the tip at about 2mm from there , the spine ends and is blended in there.
The English reeds are normally straight scraped traversing down to the tip, and hardly any visible spine. What you call bright, to me sounds "quacky" and yes, they are definitely easier to play on.
I have enclosed a pix comparing the English and French. You can see the French has a visible spine all the way to 2mm from the midpoint of the tip. The English is a 40 year old reed and it still plays, amazing isnt it. It has that bright sound as u said. The English reed has a longer back as u can see.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2010-06-19 17:34
Hautbois Francais, i have not much to contribute to this thread as so many has spoken much about how to solve your problems at hand but do want to comment that the English reeds, over the years, have evolved so much that you may have from 40 years ago says nothing about how most people in the UK now make their reeds. With an added variable of consistency in reed making those days, it may very well just be a bad reed, english or not.
Generally speaking, the French scrape typically is around 8 mm, extremely short and so to retain the qualities of the reed while having more ease, try not to lengthen the scrape unless it is a last resort. If you have a micrometer the tip of the reed at the middle should not be more than .12 (depending on the gouge) and the corners of the tip can be much less. to ease the reed, make sure there is no pronounced step from the tip to heart, in other words, make it as smooth as possible, but with a sort of an angled slope. To generally make it easier, just scrape the lay area (left and right of spine) in an outwards motion on each side until you achieve the ease you want. In general, all short scrape reeds favour not a distinct thin spine like American reeds, but a "big fat" spine that is not visible as a one line but more like an "area" of spine with no clear distinction from the sides. (meaning the spine blends into the sides)
I have once attempted, on an opposite side perspective, to try American reeds. Having had lessons with some of the most accomplished American oboists of our time, i was intrigued by the way they play. I was frankly a bit shocked at how easy the reeds were, in a way, so easy that there was nothing to blow at. Now of course after spending enough time with them and understanding more and more about American oboe playing much about how the reeds work makes a lot of sense in relation to the school of playing. Now imagine yourself sitting in my situation but with European reeds instead - what you are trying to achieve might be an easy reed that looks like a French reed. But in reality, without the suitable way of forming the lips and blowing in a "french" manner, it would be most likely that the reeds will never be easy enough for you, if your intention is to ease the reed while retaining the French built of it. (if you play absolutely in the American "Philadelphian" way, the more you scrape that french reed, the only thing you will achieve at the end of the day is a flat and open reed.)
For true sounding English reeds which in my opinion are consistent most of the time, try Ke Xun reeds, David Cowdy's reeds, or Fortay reeds. For a built that is much towards the tradition of conservative French and German reed making, try Le Rousseau Chantant. I myself make in a quasi German/French manner (and no, non of the people i know whom has tried my reeds comment in any way that they are hard, i do make them as easy as possible) but then again, there is such a variety in the way reeds are built today (and played upon!) that i don't even know what i mean!
Regards,
Howard
Post Edited (2010-06-19 17:39)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-06-19 18:28
OK,
Sorry for the delay, but once I drew the sketches, I had to figure out a way to get them to you! I have yet to buy a new scanner and my only camera is my cell phone!
So I did my best with paint dot net (excellent freeware) and put the results on my website. Right now, only a few comments, more to come later. I just plopped-in all my thoughts in one paragraph.
It was just more natural for me to explain in pictures my process for scraping.... I think you'll find your situation in there somewhere.
http://robin-hautbois.users.sourceforge.net/anches/index.html
Are my reeds French or German or what? I don't really care, its their performance that matters in the end and the ability to fix them as needed.
Surely, a professionnal playing in a classical-romantic symphony would probably not waste the time fixing a reed that is not cooperating. Then again that same oboist, of necessity, puts in a lot more time tying and scraping many more reeds. Another perspective is that a musician playing in a folk ensemble wants different sounds and behaviours for different repertoires and audiences.
This could become a Master's Thesis in Humanities! Anyone interested?
I hope this helps!
Robin
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jhoyla
Date: 2010-06-19 21:30
I played English short-scrape reeds for 14 years, and then switched to American scrape, which I have now been playing for 30 years. I make my own reeds. I am not a pro, but I'm reasonably well regarded on the local amateur circuit in Israel.
The first thing to recognize is that there is an entirely different embouchure used for English reeds versus American reeds. You control English reeds with the bite - that is, pressure from you jaw is used to control the reed opening. In complete contrast, the American embouchure is almost entirely open - the objective being to seal gently around the reed without affecting the reed opening, keeping the throat open and using "support" to maintain pitch.
French/English/German reeds are much truer to the cane (oboe as successor to the shawm), while American reeds are much truer to the wind (oboe as ultimate wind instrument). Both schools have their advantages, adn both can sound truly fabulous. Few American players have made it in Europe, and vice versa.
And then, there's Heinz Holliger.
While knife technique is obviously transferable, adjusting the different reeds is something that needs to be learned on each reed style. I have yet to find a good treatise in English that deals with adjusting English reeds, though I believe they do exist.
English reeds are MUCH longer lasting than American reeds which almost never last more than a couple of weeks.
J.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-06-20 01:16
Robin:
Thx for the details you sent. I will sit down and study it in detail. I think, I can take it from here. At least I know, what I am doing and not scraping blind, as I was doing all this time. I was using what the American reed fixes taught me, though somewhat similar, but there are things I didnt know about the French construction, due to sheer ignorance.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-06-20 01:20
HautboisJJ:
Thx for the input.
You said: Generally speaking, the French scrape typically is around 8 mm, extremely short and so to retain the qualities of the reed while having more ease, try not to lengthen the scrape unless it is a last resort. If you have a micrometer the tip of the reed at the middle should not be more than .12 (depending on the gouge) and the corners of the tip can be much less. to ease the reed, make sure there is no pronounced step from the tip to heart, in other words, make it as smooth as possible, but with a sort of an angled slope. To generally make it easier, just scrape the lay area (left and right of spine) in an outwards motion on each side until you achieve the ease you want. In general, all short scrape reeds favour not a distinct thin spine like American reeds, but a "big fat" spine that is not visible as a one line but more like an "area" of spine with no clear distinction from the sides. (meaning the spine blends into the sides). "
Based on this, I have some sort of SAFE start to making my reeds playable.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-06-20 05:49
Robin:
Reading your weblink in detail, gave me more insights on the French construction. Since, I have already begun thinning the tip and blending the heart, my next would be to try lengthening the back using baby steps, to form first the W and gradually forming the U. Right now, I dont have any distinct steps, I have blended those in already.
On American reads, if they are easy and closed when dry, soaking them will open it. On the French reed, seems like soaking and then pressing down on the reed will make them slightly easier. When it is dry, it is unblowable.
Yes, u are right, if I am busy with concerts and rehearsals, i shouldnt bother with the French reeds. During down time is when I get to do some research on things that I have always thot and wondered abt, so I take this chance to do the research to satisfy my curiosity.
As an engineer, I was doing R&D for the bulk of my career, although, I had stints in management which didnt quite appeal to me, but had to move up in the corporate food chain. So, like u, I like details about anything and everything. Even going to the extent of trying to make a French Marseille Boullaibaise or a French croissant flaky pastry, by going to the Cordon Bleu just to learn it.
Post Edited (2010-06-20 05:52)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-06-21 03:02
Robin:
I lengthened the back in baby steps and it made the reed definitely playable now. Per your diagram, I used a diagonal scrape and blended the new spine and the old back, and it didnt lose its warm dark tone. Although, I dont know if it is important, the back does not have a new distinct cut step from the bark on the back like the original, because I used a rolling scrape stroke. But, anyway, your drawings helped.
Well, back to my trustee Landwell.....to get it just right !
Thx for the help.
Post Edited (2010-06-21 03:03)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-06-21 10:13
I'm glad if it was able to help.
No, distinct steps are not necessary, as long as the progression remains: it's just a matter of physics. I never understood the windows principle, but then again perhaps no one was able to show me correctly. And again, its mostly about body physiology. What works for my loud mouth might not be right for someone else and vice-versa.
What's this Landwell thing? I had the book by Jay Light who frequently referrred to John Mack.
Cheers!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-08-18 06:15
Robin:
If you dont already have it, David Ledet's Oboe Reed Styles, Chapter 4, treats the physics of the oboe reed superbly.
I just got the book myself.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-08-18 13:23
How is that book?
I mean, is it really a compendium of reed styles (American, French, German and English etc.) or does it just compare the different oboists who use American scrape?
I'm just wary about buying such a book because I have no difficulty making good and excellent reeds (neither did my teacher), but everyone I ever met who makes American reeds (including my class mates who scoffed at our teacher) complain that reed making is difficult and playing the oboe is physically painful!
But if this book does indeed give fair value to techniques that have been around for centuries, then it could be interesting. I can't find the post in this bulletin, but one person was promoting long (American) scrape because it can be used to make any piece of cane work, criticizing short scrape for relying on bark and the gouge. I fully agree that any piece of cane should be made to work (within some limits) and sometimes, almost all my bark is removed too. For me, "European style" generally means "no windows and no humps/bumps".
I only ever found one decent reference (internet) on German-styled reed-making. It is simplistic at best and gives little explanation of the actual process of scraping, but the end result corroborate my own observations. I will soon purposely gouge my cane thinner (0.56) just to see what that does for shortness, bark and so on.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-08-20 07:56
Robin:
I bought 2 books, I am try reviewing in more detail, Martin Schuring's book which someone or Cooper has also recommended reading right now.
I just briefly scanned thru Ledet's book, the other night and noticed a lot of physics treatment in the making of a reed. It shows many styles, NOT neccessary American only and lots of pictures. From the various styles of different oboists, Ledet's just goes thru the artistes career, doesnt say what is special about the reed or why it sounds the way it does etc. Of course, this was a few oboists that I have read in that short scan period that night. I didnt go thru the entire book.
Unfortunately, I am travelling now and didnt bring along the Ledet's book for leisure reading. When I get back, I will go thru it in more detail. When I get back, I will give you a better synposis of the book.
In making reeds, one needs to be open minded. Whatever style, a piece of cane can be made to work, but is it the sound you want. Remember the short scrape reeds that I got from France ? After I fixed it per your tips, I like the sound better than my own American scrape. I cant really describe the sound. I need to find the correct words to describe. Bottom line, I like the sound !
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-08-20 10:28
Hey, thanks for the info.
I'm glad my tricks helped, out: it's ironic because those of my former colleagues who went American did so to get the warm/dark sound!
I have to update the pictures: I forgot the scrape where it's basically pure French or pure German, but with all the bark removed.... bassoon style (yes, anywhere from 68 to 74mm length). Also very warm tone. You do this when the reed essentially plays just right, but you have to bite like a bear.
From what you say, I'll want Ledet's book too. Roseau Chantant sells one which I suppose is French-oriented. If your other one discusses sound quality, then I'm also interested.
Again, ironically, my 2 warmest/darkest sounding reeds are done on RDG -1 shapers! Wider tips (I actully have a number of oboe reeds on oboe d'amore shapes) have that "goosey" quality that I can`t describe in words.
I'm working to combine the two and approximate the baroque oboe sound. Albrecht Mayer has done so by getting his instrument manufacturer to change the design of the Modern oboe itself, its bore and its bell --- nice to be rich and famous! If you have a chance, do a You-tube search for him and look at the documentaries (in German: I learned basic 20 years ago, forgot it since, but the video is self-explanatory).
My goal (already acheived - now just exploring as much as I can) is to describe the most natural method of reed making so that it is easy to make soft/hard stable reeds that play (in tune) with the sound you want.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-08-20 23:05
Robin:
The "goosey" and I would add the words "hollow" and "darker" sounds approximates what I am getting with the fixed reed. For instance, the high C, 8 notes from middle C, on the American, often than not, it gives a shrill non dark sound, while the other notes are fine. I know is not the oboe, because on my fixed short scrape reed, it behaves well, no need for a lot of control or embouchure change. And I need to bite the reed with my lip more on the fixed scrape.
On the Ledet's book, I havent gone thru every single reed picture and havent read everything. So far from the few I have glanced at, it didnt cover the way it sounds in the text, but gives you references to where the oboists performed and u probably can download or go to a classical library to get a recording and hear the sound of the respective oboists. As like u and me, we know how difficult to describe sound in detailed words. The only way is to listen for the sound.
The Martin Schuring's book, talks about the American scrape, so this would not be interesting to you. I was more interested in this multi tonguing and circular breathing techniques that he talks about in the book. There are also interesting portions about adjusting the reed. I am trying to see if he can shed some light of why my high C sounds the way it does, which I dont like. Maybe, there is a fix somewhere that I try. If there is some way I can combine the scrapes and fix the C, will be also acceptable. That is why, in the Ledet's book, he covers a lot of physics of the reed. By using a pseudo scientifc method, skill and scrape art, perhaps, get some ideas !!. Hopefully, solve my high C problem.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-08-20 23:15
Robin:
When we get our Laubins, we will have another adventure with reeds and adjustments. I bet you.
If u had a teacher who didnt have the same type of oboe, his reeds are unlikely to work on your oboe and and your style of playing. That was my case. He'd give me the general techniques and ideas. The rest is experimentation. Yes, I dumped out a ton of reeds during my initial years of reed making. A large % were dumped out due to my own lack of patience, being young, impetuous and stupid.
Post Edited (2010-08-20 23:16)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-08-21 03:23
A few reworked reeds today confirmed what I wrote about removing the bark completely.
A few reeds were fine except that they required more biting than I wanted to. I removed all the bark up to 1.5mm above the tie. By bark, I mean the glazed surface and the cloudy under surface: exposing that part with all the veins.
The effect was to soften the reed without losing stability (well, a quarter mm removed from the tip). The 2nd octave key notes are easier to keep dark.
Essentially, the scrape remains the same apart from the bark. I doubt you can do this with American scrape, unless both your spine and rails are thick, but you work the windows specifically for the same effect.
Note that I am trying thinner gouge now, and indeed I can keep the scrape much shorer, on longer reeds and maintain stable notes. The pitch is a little low, but for a 74mm reed, its expected!
Best of luck with your "adjustment" adventure. Please keep me posted on how well described effects do or do not reproduce.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-08-21 03:37
Well, we have 9 years before that.... unless you got the blackwood, I ordered the rosewood! In the meantime, I intend to get an oboe d'amore in a few years.
My teacher (Bernard Jean, former 1st oboe of the Montreal Symphony, various ensembles and conductor) played a Marigaux for well over 20 years. He really made no ceremony of reed-making: he just gave a few tricks and emphassized what now seems like just plain sense. I'm confident that the process (rather than the final specs.) will make transition to other instruments painless enough. In Montreal, we'd try our friends Rigoutats, Marigaux, Lorees and what not without much ado. Laubins were few and far between: I just remember falling in absolute rapture for the few minutes I played one.
I woudn't blame impatience against reeds, there is a balance between how much to try to fix and when to decide that persistence becomes insanity!
A number of my reeds "just don't want to". I try to figure out why: sometimes its obvious, sometimes its a mystery. Most of the time, I can get a good reed on the first scrape, but I have to know when doing more will cause more harm than good.
Now, I have to spend more time keeping my back, neck and arms nimble. My face is strong enough to practice long periods, but strains are impacting both my technique and even my sound... strange that the arm would impact the sound...
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-08-21 06:33
Robin:
That is an idea for my French reeds, removing the bark till abt 1.5mm above the tie. I will try that when I get back. Getting a better 2nd octave response and keeping it dark would be a good thing.
Definitely, the American reed already removes the bark till abt 1.5mm above the tie. Yes, working in the windows would be produce the same effect like what you described.
And yes, I got the black wood, hopefully a 7 year wait.
On another note, after my research on gougers, I think I may go with the simple Ross gouger. Recently, I met one of Ross' ex-students, and he showed me the Ross's kit. For a start, I think, that would be enough, trying to keep all the variables that can go wrong, to a minimum. The kit is simple to use and looks like what I will need for now.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-08-29 00:22
Robin:
I am wondering in Canada, what style do oboists subscribe to. American or European style for reeds ? What is most prevalent ? If you are in the predominantly French part of Canada, I would guess the European reed is most commonly used ?
How about your feelings on American vs European styles of playing ? I have never noticed any difference between the two, perhaps u have some comment.
However, because of the style of scrape for a reed, the sound maybe different. Although, you can always tweak the sounds to anyway u want it, not neccessary using a particular style of reed will give u any default sound.
I tried removing the bark on the back, emulating your experiment, but I found my reed to be less stable, perhaps, I removed too much ! Perhaps, 1 to 2 scrapes to remove the bark would be more than enough.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-08-29 23:02
This question should be moved to a new post/thread. It is a really good question and I'm sure there are other people who could give more up-to-date information on that.
But first, the unstable reeds:
Yes, that will often happen when you take a reed that essentially plays very well, but is either just too hard or(and) too open and then "fix it" by reducing the back.
1. the pictures on my web-site show what I do when this happens: back-up the heart (extend the tip) and then cut it shorter.
2. I have found that removing bark less deeply but farther back is less conducive to this.
3. I think a good number of reed-makers use wire to control the opening with the same objectives as the way I scrape the bark. For my part, I have found that wired reeds feel too restricted. I guess its like a car: speed performance and smooth ride are usually opponents in the design!
4. Someone on this bulletin board (having a Dickens of a time finding the post again) mentioned that European scrape depends more on the gouge than his own technique.... but then he said that about American too! His gripe was not the scrape but the dependency on bark for the quality of reeds.
As for Canadian scrape predilections, I can only remark on what I remember from 15 years ago, as I have been completely out of the scene since then! Remeber that Canada is big, just the province of Québec is the size of Europe! This means that influence is usually confined to the University you go to. In Montréal, there were 2 schools of thought: the French School at the Conservatoire de Montréal (leftover influence from Québec city) and the American school at McGill University (slowly taking over the Conservatoire). The performance of Tombeau de Couperin (and many others) by the Montréal Symphony made Ted Baskin a legend among oboists. Though he does pure American (reeds and playing style), his performances were highly regarded by the French too. (Maestro Baskin plays on a Laubin!)
Students who aimed for a North-American carreer worked on purely American scrape, whereas those who aimed for Europe (usually Germany, but sometimes Paris) did a more Generic European scrape. My own teacher (Bernard Jean) did a hybrid French-American because he promoted soft-lipping despite his Parisian background. The French Canadians generally don't care so much about the reed technique used, so long as it works for you. Everyone I have ever met aims for a warm, mellow tone.
But that's Eastern Canada. There was, and still is, a small but very respectable oboe wave in central and western Canada (provinces of Alberta to British Columbia). What I've seen of their technique is completely unique: no bark and thick, long tip. But central-western Canada is much drier than everywhere else. Though the difference in hot summer and cold winter is extreme, the sensation is not unpleasant like it is along the St-Lawrence seaway (from the Great Lakes through Toronto, Montreal and Québec city) where the weather is more temperate, but more humid and always more bothersome.
My own conclusion gives no satisfactory answers to anyone who wants to follow plans from a book: oboe reeds, being so darned small, are a extremely sensitive to climate. The scraping technique used will depend on 1. how you like to blow (and your physiognomy) and 2. how the weather varies. This - again - is why I value process rather than measurements! (Big toothy smile and wink.)
Conclusions of my engineer-minded experimentation essentially confirmed Bernard Jean's technique while giving a few extra pointers on methodology.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-09-06 00:44
Robin:
Just reading thru this thread from HautboisJJ he said:
"But in reality, without the suitable way of forming the lips and blowing in a "french" manner, it would be most likely that the reeds will never be easy enough for you, if your intention is to ease the reed while retaining the French built of it. "
Now, would you comment on "blowing in a french manner" ? How different is it from blowing in the "American"or "English" manner ?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ceri
Date: 2010-09-06 14:48
The French have a very firm embouchure with the reed pressing very firmly against the lower lip. Moving the reed in or out of the mouth is advanced technique which changes the tone colour of the notes. Playing on French reeds requires a great deal of abdominal support and high air pressure. The angle at which the instrument is held is also slightly different, with French players holding the instrument and higher and more away from their body.
I don't know much about the American style of playing but my French teacher says Americans play the oboe the way French people would play a recorder.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-09-07 09:38
Moving the reed in or out of mouth to get tone color, is something I have not had the pleasure of experiencing. Although, I have heard and seen some oboists moving the reed in and out of the lip to achieve a vibrato.
The lower lip in playing a recorder as I know and experience is vastly different for the oboe. The recorder is simply placed on the lower lip without folding the lower lip in and over the lower teeth. With this lip posture as in playing a recorder, I dont see how the American tradition can even get the oboe to croak a sound ?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-09-07 09:57
Again, no ceremony.
Everything Ceri explained just seems natural and "normal" to me with the exception that at the Conservatoire de Montréal, we were taught to soft-lip regardless of the reed used. Doesn't American technique also use abdominal support? For me the air-pressure is built-in to my physiognomy!
This is perhaps why most of my reeds are hybrids and/or why a thinner gouge is preferable: the reed closes more on its own, is more easy to play on its own without sacrificing the round sound or the sprigny character of the reed.
I can't even imagine just leaving the reed in the lips and never moving it. This being said, moving the reed is no big deal: its just a matter of responding to the oboe's tuning and/or a bunch of other sound considerations as you're playing. The position of the instrument should only be in response to your body's posture requirements (prevent strains in the neck, shoulder etc.) and other physiognomy considerations.
There are exercises of opening/closing the mouth over the reed (drunken scales) and so on, but they only intuitively exaggerate what you would do while playing.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-09-07 10:21
Moving in or out the reed in the mouth, I am picturing during, say a Bach phrase, you are inserting the reed in your lips and then out again to get tone color ? Maybe I am missing something here. What u said about posturing and position of instrument is really quite intuitive and you are absolutely correct that everything must feel natural. Being brought up in the English tradition and later American, I have, thus far found very little difference in styles of playing. That is why, I am a little intrigue about what everyone is saying about the French style of playing. So what is it that is different ?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ceri
Date: 2010-09-07 14:56
More problem with trying to explain is that I don't really know anything except the French playing style.
I do know that French oboe teachers think my reeds are still slightly easy but that English oboe teachers who have tried them think they are too hard and always offer to scrape them.
One of the things French oboe teachers do is press down on the reed while the pupil is playing to make sure it is resting firmly on the bottom lip and not moving at all. English teachers (as far as I know) don't do this.
With a French reed, if it is not pressing very firmly on the bottom lip then you will play very flat. (The top lip, on the other hand, really is resting very gently and just forming an air-tight seal).
My teacher's description of Americans playing the oboe the way they play a recorder didn't refer to the position of the lips but to the "loose" way the oboe is in the mouth and the fact that you don't (apparently) need so much support on American reeds to get notes out of the instrument. Recorders obviously have abdominal support but it is different to oboe support (or at least it is when I play the two instruments).
When I talked about moving the reed in or out to change sound quality it is most definitely not lip vibrato and maybe it might be more accurately described as dampening the vibration slightly by covering slightly more of the reed.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-09-07 16:10
Ceri:
Thx for enlightening. As for me I know little about how the french style of playing too, hence the requests for your comments and inputs.
Yes, I do agree however that, American style reeds are definitely easier to get a sound and notes out, which makes not having to make too much adjustments to the embouchure. One of the reasons I converted to the American style for reeds was because I was getting a better yield (viz more workable reeds) compared to the English style reeds.
Like Robin, I am trying to make a hybrid. Am still in experiment mode.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-09-07 22:33
H.F.:
You might want to experiment with more finished reeds before experimenting alot on hybrids. The reasons you gave for going TO American scrape are rather important.
I abandoned American scrape after years of doing it because they ALL felt choked to me.... in fact I felt myself choking when playing on the best of them (be they made by myself or others).
Moving the reed in/out of the mouth is another thing that came naturally to me by insisting on mastering the very high register when I was still a beginner. Exercises do exist whereby you buzz the reed (no instrument) and pull it in and push it out with the mouth only while blowing (you can hold the reed between 2 fingers, but only so you won't drop it!). That and drunken scales (wa-wa-wa-waaaahhhh on each note) greatly develop mouth dexterity.
That's the flip-side of my preferring French/German reeds (more mouth play). I keep saying mouth rather than lips because the main motion is in the jaw with the lips (and surrounding muscles) reacting to other factors that deal with tuning (WAYYY harder to explain than to do!) Perhaps I would not be able to play on real French reeds. But the scrape on a thinner gouge (0.58mm) has given me closed reeds that require very little facial effort.
I really don't know if you'll be able to get a hybrid that allows you to keep what you describe as a rather passive embouchure. My teachers did always tell me to never use the mouth except in the highest range.... but then when I look at them playing, the reed does go in and out in accordance with the musical passage.
In the end, you want to be able to play with your ears and trust the body to respond without thinking. "Perfect technique" is just a means to build strength where you need it and develop the habits so you won't get uselessy tired.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-09-08 00:18
Robin:
I havent started anything per se, I am still waiting on some equipment to come in. Your advise of mastering a finished reed of a particular style is important before going to a hybrid and that was what I intend to do. If I never made a workable european style reed, I will never get any hybrid to work.
Anyway, it is very rare that I use the high registers for anything above the high octave E. I have never been able to sound particularly smooth or make smooth transitions on the high octave F and G. And most of the pieces that I had to play never go that high.
In the past, I needed to get reeds out quickly, seasoned them by blowing on them for a while and boom, I go for a performance. I didnt have the luxury of time to dump a lot of non workable reeds, which was the case when I made English reeds. I found the American style reed was adequate for my use. I think, I may be sacrificing "sound", by using this slam bam method.
Frankly, I feel choked on the high registers with the American style reed and that is the only time ! That is why, the smooth transitions are hard to achieve, for me that is. I didnt have this problem with a good English reed that I made though. And yes, in the high registers there is some moving in and out of the reed.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ceri
Date: 2010-09-08 11:22
I have been shown the mouth exercices Robin mentions (and others) by English oboists and found them easy to do.
One also suggested playing the oboe first just with the bottom lip in contact with the reed and then just with the top lip in contact to feel what each lip does - the bottom lip controls tuning, the lip controls the tone. This was quite hard to do (particularly top lip only when I felt I was holding the oboe very insecurely and was afraid I would end up breaking the reed). I haven't done this with any regularity but it is an interesting experiment.
Thinking about it, I prefer Robin's description of "mouth" rather than lips. My French teacher attaches a lot of importance to the corners of the mouth (with his younger pupils he talks about making a sad fish face) and he claims that these muscles are paramount in controlling the reed. Although the reed doesn't move on my lips when I play lower notes, my bottom jaw does.
I'm not overkeen on high notes either but all my French reeds will play at least up to third octave G#, providing you use enough support and resist the temptation to bite down on the reed. (They may well go higher but I don't know the fingerings). If the top octave doesn't come out satisfactorily then you chop a bit off the end to make the tip shorter.
That said, my current preference for reeds is a slightly modified French scrape, influenced by the English (UK) reeds I have tried. The overall scrape and the tip are both slightly longer on the reeds I make myself than on the ones my teacher makes for me. My teacher has rather grudgingly admitted that this suits my current playing style but he assures me that I will "grow out of it" as my playing improves and go back to "proper" French scrapes.
The French reeds are incredibly stable intonation wise over the whole range of the instrument but the trade-off is that they are more tiring to play and fast-tonguing is harder.
Post Edited (2010-09-08 18:22)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-09-08 12:47
EXCELLENTLY said, Ceri!
I never knew about the top/bottom lips specialities. I have often noticed, however, that "smiling" (even with dropped-jaw soft-lipping) does help with tuning: I won't say in which register, in what dynamics and under which type of passage - that's another thing that comes intuitively.
What I will say, however, is that it is too easy to rely on mouth movement and forget that everything must begin in the gut. Be it the diaphragm, solar-plexus or what have you, abdominal support (even when playing ppp) is easier (once mastered) and less tiring than mouth manipulations. The mouth is there for the fine stuff.
Ceri, how long have you been playing? You may or may not grow out of your reed style - I emphasize that reed scrape need be a function of your physiognomy. Do indeed try to follow your teacher's instructions, as well as those of any really good player in your entourage, because experience tops any theory. Your own experience will end up being the most important.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2010-09-09 03:49
right on, Robin. "Your experience counts" And where did the published 'theory' come from? Someone else's experience!
"Abdominal support/gut": definitely the priority, and VITAL for endurance.
I find myself adjusting to as well as adjusting my own reeds. It seems to take me just as much time to adjust reeds someone else has made, as to make my own. And my own ALWAYS suit 'my' way of playing.
Live and learn.
GoodWinds
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ceri
Date: 2010-09-09 07:17
I've been playing for about six and a half years and have made rapid progress over the past year (everything just seems to have suddenly fallen into place). I hope I haven't finished progressing which is why I am quite prepared to think that my reed preferences may well change yet again.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JRC
Date: 2010-09-10 15:41
Hi! I have been following this thread and found it very informative and interesting. I see many references to French, German, and American ways of playing and types of reed. Very interesting indeed! I envy you folks having learned oboe, not just playing, but also the basics, from teachers.
I started making reeds without the benefit of teachers. I just had few principles I made up. The tip should be very thin. The thickness of a reed should be gradually thicker toward the staple. But I had an idea about the sound I did not want to make. I did not like the ducky reedy sound that some Europeans players made. It bothered me just listening to it... almost like biting into a lemon...loved the expressiveness but too sour. I did not like the creamy sound that some Americans made... almost like creamy milk chocolate... loved the first bite but get tired of it after awhile. I wanted to make a sound equivalent of peaches... juicy sweet and soft, yet with enough sourness to stand out. Then I discovered there are wide varieties of peaches I liked with different combination of sweetness, softness, sourness, and juiciness but all has that peach aroma. My goal was to make peach taste oboe sound.
I use to be able to make different reeds for different expressions. I was never been able to make one to sound such way. It turned out sounding different and I accepted them if they turn out within my tolerance. I found every reed I made looked different. Actually they ended up looking different, not that I try to make them different. Making reed was a process, a long process. Started with a long tip and some meat in the middle (this is to avoid sounding like a duck), I keep scraping it and cutting the tips while keep playing on it until I am happy with it or turned our acceptable. Some ended up a long scrape, some short, some with a large meat in the middle, some almost no meat in the middle. But all of them have smooth contour, no abrupt hump. All of them are thinner toward the tip. It usually takes me a month before I know the reed is going to stay in my reed case. I do agree with Robin that a reed does not need to look the same to sound the same. On the other hand no reed ever sounds the same to me, yet I do have distinct sound people seems to recognize.
I envy you folks having learned things from teachers who also learned from teachers. Please keep discussing. I am learning a lot here.
One thing does confuse me. What is dark sound that everyone seems to want and seem to understand what it means? Is it just opposite to reedy ducky sound, which really does not narrow the meaning that much? I do recognize most, if not all, American oboe players sound dark, but they all seem to sound alike to me. On the other hand, for instance, which one of these popular European oboe player's sound is considered not dark; Heinz Holliger, Leon Goossens, Pierre Pierlot, Andre Lardrot, or Robert Casier? They do sound very different and distinct, unlike today's American players.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-09-10 16:56
Ausgeseichnet!
Thanks for the input!
If I summarize your conclusions, we seem to be in perfect agreement. Any abrupt steps in the reed do make response and tonguing easier, but contoured shapes give a more contoured sound.
As for sounds, Heinz Holliger epitomizes (in my mind) "reedy", crystalline and bright tones.... not to my taste although he was my hero for many years. My current hero is Albrecht Mayer => SHEESS, he makes a modern oboe sound baroque! Then again, if you search him on You-Tube and go through the German-language documentaries, you'll notice his sound changes drastically between time periods, when he changes instruments!
I mostly like his oboe d'amore which really combines the best qualities of the oboe and English horn... unlike many players in the past who would combine the worst features of the two.
Listen JRC, if you are capable of making stable reeds that "allow" you play rather than making you fight to play in tune and from ppp to fff, then you have absolutely nothing to envy from the rest of us!
Keep at it and PLEASE, send us your comments too!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JRC
Date: 2010-09-10 18:37
Thank you for encouragement. I still like to learn from people who was taught properly.
By the way, you mentioned about re-voicing your oboe with Teitelbaum on other thread. How did it go? Or is it still being done? How did you come to choosing Teitelbaum for the job?
If you rather communicate it privatey, here is my email: Joung.Cook@gmail.com.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: wkleung
Date: 2010-09-10 19:10
I think Heinz Holliger, Leon Goossens, Pierre Pierlot, Andre Lardrot, or Robert Casier are all considered bright sounding by the US standard.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JRC
Date: 2010-09-10 19:54
So in your opinion, the expression, "dark", sound is geographical and perhaps time dependent.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-09-11 15:30
Robin:
From your experience, what is your yield like from ungouged cane ? Say, you bought 1/2 kg of cane, I am sure it is impossible to get 100% yield. There is yield loss from just picking a nice straight cane before gouging. There is yield loss after gouging, shaping and finally getting to the reed....if the cane is too soft, too grainy etc, there again you have losses.
In your opinion, who is a reliable source for getting your cane mail ordered ? I know you may have said it in a post, but I can remember where I saw it.
Whoever else who like to share their inputs on yield losses for un-gouged cane, please feel free to contribute.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2010-09-11 17:15
OH GEEZ, I haven't the foggiest idea!
My stock of tube (canon) cane was "acquired" from various other oboists and a little from Brian Charles N.Y. I would say that Roseau Chantant is a good place for shaped cane (in terms of quality) because I mostly went to him when trying out different shapes. This says nothing about canon cane, however.
In the 1990s, I was pleasantly surprized with "California Cane" (no idea of the producer). www.oboe-shop.de says that Argentinian cane is also excellent, if you prefer a bit softer cane. I've ordered a bunch of different brands from them, but it'll be a good 3 months before I get anything ---- the order was to justify their effort in getting Kunibert Michel shapers for me. Even when I get them, I plan to let them sit in a closet for a few years.
You see, if the cane is so grainy that (when you're splitting the canons) it breaks in a puff of dust, then I discard it! Otherwise, I check for flatness and nothing else. I am only now starting to sort by radius (diameter). In terms of flatness, only about 1/5 of the cane is actually decent. Luckily, I keep my tolerances loose under the assumption: "if I can't make a good reed with it in 30 minutes, then I'll just toss it and try with another piece".
For flatness, I often split in 2 with a knife rather than 3 with an arrow head (more work pre-gouging, but you maximize yield of flat pieces). Because canons vary in length from slightly more than one piece to well more than 2 pieces, I get anywhere between 2 and 6 (rare) pieces per canon. Long canons are usually more curved, so I suppose the average is 3 pieces per canon over all. I don't toss many canons at all.
"Un-flat" cane:
- when concave: will slip out of the gouger and break
- when convex: will separate the blades of a finished reed --- the best reed will only be playable for a few minutes a day. Definitely not usable in concert.
=> The flatness need not be perfect, however. Most good cane kind of slithers convex/concave over its length: this seems to average out to a good useable cane.
In terms of hard/soft cane, I've had good reeds and bad reeds with all descriptions. The few traditions that seem to stick (I don't know the scientific details, but results have proven again and again that these are the things to do) are:
0. When tying, NEVER SLIP (sideways overlap) the cane blades: American school players will clobber me for saying this.... anyway, according to Jay Light's book. But I'm pretty sure all European schools will agree.
1. Tie tightly enough and at a length that closes a few thread twists before the staple end. (Don't measure the length, adjust as you're tying.)
2. Let the tied "reed blank" dry for at least 2 weeks: a few months is better. I just leave it in the reed case untill I get time to scrape it.... usually 2-3 months later!
3. scrape the heart and the tip immediately after tying so the grains won't make the reed excessively open. This is not an actual reed-scrape, but just a preparation to weaken the pivot and spring points. When you scrape for real, the "tied heart" will end up being the reed tip.
I hope this is what you were looking for. I don't think of yield percentage in terms of profit versus the price of store gouged cane, but rather in terms of doing everything and seeing first-hand the effects. I can better control parameters this way. Then again, I did buy my gouger for 100$ in the late 1980s!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-09-12 00:07
I have a gouger now, but only bought one brand of cane, which is a mistake, and I am finding very low yields at very early stages of the process, viz, after splitting. Like you said about 20% or less is decent to make reeds. As I am splitting, I am thinking to go down to a store to select the cane rather than have them ship whatever at random. Then any brand of cane I use would be a gamble.
I have had short pieces of cane bent so badly that it is even not worth the effort to split it and maybe save one piece. The piece that is saved also have the grains bent, and it would be hard to scrape, better to toss it out.
The cane I have is very soft and grainy, even after pre gouging, some breaks off during the process. During the actual gouging, more will break. I am actually getting less than 50% more like 2 or 3 in 10 make it through the gouge process. This is very dismal yield.
I may discard this cane and try a small quantity of other brands and see how they go. This is a disheartening experience especially I am all hyped up on actually gouging my own cane and having more control over my reeds, but now not getting the results I had expected.
Thanks for your input. Now I know, this is a relatively low yield process at the end of the day.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2010-09-12 03:16
Don't give up!
Cane selection is very frustrating - each brand is different and there are differences within the brands. Cane is like wine.
As I posted previously - poor gouger adjustment and/or inferior cane is deadly.
I just sent back a batch of very poor, soft, grainy, and stringy cane!
Buy small quantities of cane from three or more suppliers. Ask for medium hard cane to begin with. You will learn to become a good judge of cane with time.
I myself keep a minimum of three different batches and prefer at least four.
I usually tie a reed from each batch - provides a variety of tonal characteristics. The cane also may react differently to seasonal changes.
Make sure you have the proper diameter cane to fit properly in the bed of the gouger - usually 10.5 - 11.
Mark
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2010-09-12 03:23
Mark (mjfoboe):
So, would you mind sharing what are the 3-4 brands you keep on hand ?
I asked for Medium that last time, from a vendor in France, but got something, like you said, soft, grainy and stringy. I did get 10.5 to 11. But the quality of cane is hard to work with. If you make the tip thin to the canes limit, the tip chips off.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2010-09-12 12:21
Rigotti, Ghys, Danzi, ............................
Please remember that even when you buy a productive brand of cane - there is no guarantee the next batch will be of equal consistency.
As I said before - it is like buying a good bottle of wine.
For example my first batch of Rigotti was on the soft side. The next batch was superior.
My first batch of Danzi was good the next batch soft/string/fibrous/ which I returned - my present batch is very good.
So buy in small quantities - and if you get a batch you like - immediately try to buy more from the same lot.
Good Luck,
Mark
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ceri
Date: 2010-09-14 12:42
To go back to the original question about making short scrape European reeds, I have just watched a DVD called "The Oboe Reed Making" by Linda Walsh. This explains very clearly how to make a short scrape reed (and has an appendix with an American reed so Europeans can see the difference). It also enabled me to see how an English reed differs from a French one (but only because I know what a French one is supposed to look like).
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
