 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Dan Oberlin ★2017
Date: 2022-10-27 01:46
The second (proximal interphalangeal) joint of the ring finger on my grandson's right hand often collapses while he's playing. It is his impression that he is not using excessive pressure. Has anyone out there had experience with this sort of thing? Anybody have remedial suggestions? Thanks in advance!
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2022-10-27 02:26
Have you considered a plateau clarinet, or perhaps having that position set up as a plateau key?
Tony F.
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2022-10-27 17:26
He should find a different thumb/wrist position that gives more curl to his fingers while playing. I think this problem can happen if your fingers are straight. If he has an adjustable thumbrest, I would experiment with different positions to see if it improves. Or get one of those big rubber thumbrest cushions that will allow some more flexibility in thumb position on a fixed rest.
Curled fingers move faster and tire less than straight fingers as well.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2022-10-27 18:58
Dan Oberlin wrote:
> The second (proximal interphalangeal) joint of the ring finger
> on my grandson's right hand often collapses while he's playing.
At 16 he's old enough to be aware of the sensations in his hand(s) as he plays and of the effect his collapsing finger has on his technique.
So, the first question is, does it affect his technique? Are scales that involve moving that finger uneven? Does he feel a lack of coordination with the other r.h. fingers?
In the end, each player's hand position is different. If there is no trade-off between the collapsed joint and decreased fluency, it might not be worth changing anything. I'm not going to say that a collapsing - hyperextending - finger is a good thing. The hyperextension often means that the knuckle has to unlock before it can lift, which takes extra time each time the finger has to move. But I will say that when I've had students with this kind of problem, it wasn't just one finger, it was usually at least the three in the middle and sometimes even the pinky. If the one collapsing ring finger isn't causing a problem, it might be OK to just ignore it.
If it *does* seem to be causing technical problems, it may be that to reach the pinky keys - especially r.h. E/B - the stretch doesn't allow him to keep his ring finger curved. Adjusting the thumb rest height or just moving his thumb in and out under the thumb rest might produce a position that works better. If the pinky stretch is causing his ring finger to hyperextend, whatever he can find to reduce the stretch may help. For example I play a lot of passages that should be done with r.h. B(4) on my left hand with a slide from B to C#. It isn't "correct" but it's much more comfortable for me, especially (and counterintuitively) as the speed of the notes gets faster. And the remaining rh pinky keys don't demand as much stretch so the other fingers are more relaxed.
What clarinet does he play? I don't know how others are designed, but Buffet's rh pinky keys are perpendicular to the instrument's body, while the ones on my Selmer 10Gs are angled upward toward the hand (it was a design feature Gigliotti included when he collaborated on the 10G with Selmer). If your grandson's pinky keys are perpendicular, finding a clarinet with angled pinky keys might help.
Another discovery I've made recently (and belatedly) is that a neckstrap, aside from just taking weight off the right thumb, also allows more flexibility in how far my thumb needs to go underneath the thumb rest. Some passages are easier for me with my thumb farther out (which increases the reach of my pinky), a position that feels less stable when I play without the neckstrap.
Karl
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Author: Dan Oberlin ★2017
Date: 2022-10-28 00:53
Hi Karl,
Thanks for your response. The collapsing finger does seem to be a problem. For example, he has a hard time getting the 16ths in the third measure of the first movement of the Poulenc sonata consistently even - sometimes they are even and sometimes not. His clarinet is an older R13, and he's just had the thumb rest replaced with an adjustable one. He's used a neck strap a little bit. Maybe the neckstrap and some adjustment of the thumb position will do the trick. But I'd be interested to know if this kind of problem has ever been successfully treated by physical therapy or ameloriated by using some sort of brace.
Dan
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Author: WoodsyBloom
Date: 2022-10-28 02:13
I used to have that same problem! I don't have any specific exercises I did to get rid of it, but I found that making an effort to relax while playing difficult technical things help. I was pressing down on the hole rather just covering it, causing my finger to hyperextend and stiffen. I don't know if your grandson's situation is exactly the same as mine, but I would just suggest focusing on relaxing whild play or maybe doing
some mechanism studies that isolate that finger and train it to stay relaxed and curved.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-10-28 07:47
Dan Oberlin wrote:
"...The collapsing finger does seem to be a problem. For example, he has a hard time getting the 16ths in the third measure of the first movement of the Poulenc sonata consistently even - sometimes they are even and sometimes not. His clarinet is an older R13, and he's just had the thumb rest replaced with an adjustable one. He's used a neck strap a little bit. Maybe the neckstrap and some adjustment of the thumb position will do the trick. But I'd be interested to know if this kind of problem has ever been successfully treated by physical therapy or ameloriated by using some sort of brace..."
Hi Dan,
If medical/PT treatment is required, I suggest contacting an orthopedic doctor, not just an orthopedist but a hand specialist.
Depending on where your grandson lives, it may be difficult to find such a specialist. But you have to start somewhere because a physical therapist most likely would need a prescription from a MD to start treatment (although not in every state).
Also, your grandson would be better off going to a hand therapist (who could be a PT or OT), not a general PT practice.
You stated that the thumb rest was replaced with an adjustable one.
If the new TR was placed over the original mounting holes, it would only allow to lower the position of the thumb, but not move the thumb above it's original position on the instrument.
HOWEVER, before going to a doctor or making more adjustments to his clarinet, it make sense to seek a 2nd opinion form another teacher.
I'd try to get a consultation with a known teacher (from a reputable college or just an independent teacher).
An experienced teacher should be able to either advise on how to correct the problem or refer to a medical specialist.
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Author: rfunes
Date: 2022-10-28 21:42
Interesting thread, as I also have the exact same problem.
I play on a Yamaha 450N.
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2022-10-28 22:27
I have often wondered why clarinet thumb rests are mounted where they are and why they are not adjustable side to side in addition to up and down. It would help this type of issue.
I have the thumb rest sitting above my first joint of my thumb in order to play comfortably. If I could shift the thumbrest sideways to the left (away from my hand), I think it might be more comfortable. When I first started playing, I used to have the thumbrest positioned over my thumbnail, and I had these straight finger issues more often like the OP.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2022-10-29 01:09
Hunter_100 wrote:
> I have often wondered why clarinet thumb rests are mounted
> where they are and why they are not adjustable side to side in
> addition to up and down. It would help this type of issue.
>
> I have the thumb rest sitting above my first joint of my thumb
> in order to play comfortably. If I could shift the thumbrest
> sideways to the left (away from my hand), I think it might be
> more comfortable. When I first started playing, I used to have
> the thumbrest positioned over my thumbnail, and I had these
> straight finger issues more often like the OP.
Moving the TR away from your hand would increase torque pressure on the phalangeal and metacarpophalangeal joints, thus making it more difficult to hold the clarinet's weight.
If your thumb is long enough, having the TR proximal to the phalanx is ideal.
If you have short thumb (like me), you need to curve fingers/digits 2-4 to be able to cover the tone holes
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Author: DougR
Date: 2022-10-31 06:22
I've had a fair amount of hand issues recently, including thumb CMC surgery, trigger finger, mallet finger, etc. I'm fortunate to live in an area where there are orthopedists who specialize in musician injuries, and certified hand therapists who do too. If you're anywhere near a major urban area, you might be able to be seen by one of these practitioners; there are a whole host of additional things going on when one is attempting to compensate for hand abnormalities.
Frankly I'd look first for an orthopedist who treats musicians, and refers to a certified hand therapist. Good luck!
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Author: sal
Date: 2022-11-06 21:54
A few things I would stress;
In my experience, When you play the clarinet, your fingers (with exception of pinky) has to be the "same length". THis reguires one to curve and "lift" fingers at the middle knuckle. The middle finger requires the most curving, followed by the ring, then the index. Kind of like how one would hold a baseball bat. If you do this, its nearly impossible for finger tips to collapse.
Another thing-make sure the pinkies are in their proper place. So often I see with younger students the pinkies just flailing in any direction. The pinkies should just about ALWAYS be directly over the pinky keys when not in use. I have my students play a 2 octave C scale, making sure the left pinky stays on the B lever(except for the C), and the right pinky on the F/C key. -not depressing the key, just touching it. I find it is extremely difficult to have bad hand posture when doing this. THis is especially effective when figuring out which part of the index finger presses the throat keys.
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