 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-12-31 07:46
It was bound to come up, and frankly, I'm surprised just how little it has on the bboard.
Oh, there's tons of posts on climate change and reeds, but the climate change in question concerns going, say, from Arizona to Florida and having to deal the change that increased humidity has on our reeds.
I saw a report on TV tonight on how climate change is effected the champagne industry. It made me think about how the cane for good reeds grows in a bunch of very limited latitudes on the globe, where wind plays a key role in strengthening the fibers.
While I'm glad that synthetic reeds seem to improve each year, I'm still an arundo donax kind of player and would hate to have to move to synthetics because I was forced off cane, rather than because cane, rather than dropping in quality, was eventually outmatched by a better synthetic product.
Do any of you have a handle on what the experts are predicting as it relates to weather and our precious cane?
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-12-31 08:31
I completely get what you mean. I'm also still very much on cane, and in spite of a lot of effort, I haven't been able to get to grips with synthetic reeds yet.
I'm a plant scientist by profession, but not super-up to date on climate change. I do get it a bit though.
Here's what I understand of the likely effects on cane:
It seems as though the climate is generally changing in all sorts of ways, which are not really predictable just now.
For example, if the jet stream moved, then the climate of all sorts of places in Europe could change quite a lot. Then it might become harder to grow cane in the usual places, but there might be other places where it is possible to grow it. While that process of change goes on, I imagine that it might be hard to find one stable place in which to grow it at all.
However, from what I have read, if the jetstream moves that much, then running out cane clarinet reeds may be the least of our problems, unfortunately.
I suppose in a less radical outcome, or perhaps sooner, we might see slight changes to the climate that stop short of the jetstream moving. In that case, the places where the reeds are grown might have small changes in climate, and the reeds might become either noticeably better or worse. There might also be harvest failures sometimes if there is an extreme weather event in the area. Conversely there might be a fanastic vintage of reeds one year, if they have really great weather. At the same time, cane grown in other regions might get a bit better or a bit worse in the opposite direction, depending on how the climate changes there.
I think the main summary is:
- We don't know anything at this level of granularity.
- We really really don't want to have to find out, because stability is the best thing all round, hence COP26 and all that.
- If the climate changes enough to cause trouble for clarinet reeds, then we probably have other bigger problems to cope with.
On the plus side, paying people to grow loads of plants seems to help the with CO2 emissions, so with our reed-buying habit we are probably helping. (I hope!?)
Does that seem right?
Sorry - maybe this is the really obvious big-picture and you are looking for something more specific from people who grow reeds right now and are already seeing changes. I don't know about that, but I will hunt around and see if the grass people know.
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Soprano Sax American Cut #2, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2021-12-31 08:34)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2021-12-31 10:16
Hi folks! I'm still a cane player also. I know that the 2 largest companies, Rico and Vandoren are always looking for the right climates. For example Rico invested in land located in several places, Argentina, France of course, and California. Also in Spain. I know that Vandoren had or still has cane fields right next to Rico in Argentina. Vandoren of course has fields in France.
Many years ago Vandoren ran out of cane. Bernard Vandoren went to Rico and Rico helped them out. Yes I met Bernard when he visited Rico and he's a very nice man. Also, both companies have cane fields next to each other in France.
So this still a great subject. I don't think we have to worry anytime soon. Both companies are always working together to a point, investing and planting in new fields.
I'm actually worried about wood for clarinets. It's getting a bit scarce, the quality of wood is not as good as it was in the 1960's. We need to keep horns as long as possible and take great care of them. Getting the horns checked at least once a year, twice a year is much better. The keys need to be oiled every month with heavier weighted oils, avoid key oil, it's too thin. The bores should be checked as well.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: ruben
Date: 2021-12-31 14:04
Bob: It's good to see you posting again! As for wood, an MIT team of researchers recently came up with a technique to make quite ordinary wood much harder. This might suit woodwind manufacturing. Maple, for example, could be used or even pine. The only trouble is that hardness isn't the only parameter. Density and fibers also play a part in tone. Still, it's worth a try.
As for cane, bassoonists use Turkish cane more and more. Have you tried it? An old American jazz musician-Russell Procope- used to tell me that the world's best cane is Cuban. If Cuba opens up, this would be worth a try. There's nothing stopping Vandoren from buying land in Cuba.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: ruben
Date: 2021-12-31 14:13
Sunnydaze! as a plant researcher, what part do you think wind plays in producing suitable cane for reeds? Somebody once told me that cane from the Var in France is the best because the Mistral wind is constantly blowing there and makes the plants bend thus rendering them sinewy. Does this sound right to you? Of course, soil, sun and climate are also factors.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-12-31 15:56
Hi Ruben,
Thanks for giving me a chance to talk about plants. I really enjoy that.
I think wind would make a huge difference to the physical qualities of the plants, definitely.
There are a few things that I can think of:
One is the greater amount of water drawn through the plants by the wind. Plants work a lot like drinking straws with a washing line on the top. What I mean is that the leaves are like wet washing, allowing water to constantly evaporate from their surface. As the water evaporates, this causes them to suck water up through the trunk or stem of the plant. The suction is driven entirely by the amount of water lost from the leaves. If the plants are growing in constant wind then they will be sucking massive amounts of water out of the soil and through their stems. I have no idea whether that makes a really concrete difference, but it might mean, for example, that they have more, or larger xylem vessels that would make the reed a bit more hollow, or potentially stronger. It might also mean that xylem vessels are more evenly spread, which would certainly make a difference. This is all hypothetical and we'd need to actually look to see if any of this holds true.
The other difference in a windy place is that probably if they are being blown about a lot then the plants will change structure in some way to counter the constant force of the wind as you say. Again, I'm not sure exactly what they would do, but I suppose it might involve laying down more lignin or something to make the structures tougher. Plant cell walls have a lot of important compounds in them to make them tough. Grasses also have special mechanisms to stand themselves up again when they are blown over, but I would hope the cane reeds are not actually being flattened routinely. That would seem a bit harsh.
The wind might also affect the other organisms in the environment (bug pests and those animals that eat the grass), or mean that the air is fresher and that might make a difference too. It may also mean that the land is cheaper because people don't want to live there, and that could make a very big difference to what can be achieved.
I'm sure there will be some amazing specialists in the reed companies that know this all inside out, and I am just theorising.
I have written to a cereal specialist friend who has passed me on to a tropical grass specialist. If I find anything out I will come back and tell you all about it.
Bob - It's great to hear from you again. I hope things are going okay there.
You might be interested by this thread that we had a while back. It seems that people are thinking a lot about how to keep the wood situation sustainable.
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=494966&t=494966
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-12-31 15:58
Attachment: pipes.png (323k)
Here is a set of scanning electron microscope photos of a cane reed, in case you would like to see the xylem vessels inside. Xylem vessels are the strong pipes that the water flows through as it goes up the plant stem.
The photos were taken by Dr Sachin Shah who is in Prof. Lomomossoff's lab at the John Innes Centre in Norwich in the UK. He took them as part of a collaboration that we had a few years ago.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2021-12-31 17:39
Sunny: thank you for this fascinating lesson! I'm not sure to what extent Vandoren does use biologists and horticulturists. They may just rely on time-honored traditional empirical knowledge. I will ask Jean-Marie Paul who worked for them for 30 years.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2021-12-31 20:39
Click on the "Music Reeds" article to see the brief interview with Thomas Donati of the Donati family that has been producing reeds in the Var country for many years. His family owns the Steuer reed company. Donati says "We have the Mistral, which is a strong wind that gives [cane] muscles, strength, and flexibility." No real discussion of global warming here, though.
https://www.greenplanetmonitor.net/?s=music+reeds
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-12-31 21:52
Attachment: fern.jpg (821k)
Hi Ruben,
Thanks for asking, I would be really interested to know.
The thing about plant science (botany) is that there is almost no money for actual research.
There are a million questions that we could ask, and they would all be relatively easy to actually resolve.
However, nobody ever does the work to look into it all, because no research funding body would ever divert money away from cancer research and stuff like that, to look at fundemental questions like why ferns look like fractals, and why particular kinds of cane make great clarinet reeds.
I would guess that if the work has been done, then it will have been done inside the big companies, and that it will all be secret.
I'm currently a stay-at-home Mum, but I do fern research self-funded on the side. It's nice work to do, and I never need to worry that anyone will beat me to my goals, as literally no one else is working on the same things as me.
I attached one of my photos so you can see.
Jen
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-12-31 21:58
That's a great article Seabreeze. Nice to know what the plants look like.
I feel as though we must be doing something to preserve the climate by paying people to grow all those plants. That has to be good right?
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2021-12-31 22:55
One man's meat is another's poison. In California, Arundo donax L is widely regarded as an invasive plant that clogs waterways and does much other harm.
But look a little further and many are extolling the plant for its capability as an alternative material for paper manufacture, a possible remediator of soils contaminated by heavy metals, and a cheap replacement for plywood and other building materials. There is even some talk about eating the stuff (animal fodder or table food?). Its robust, deep roots adapt easily to many ecological conditions, and it needs little fertilizer or special care.
Some gardeners are trying it as a backyard or landscape plant. This article has some striking photos of Arundo donax L, close up and distant that put it in a new perspective for me. https://www.gardenershq.com/Arundo-donax.php.
Post Edited (2022-01-01 06:27)
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Author: ruben
Date: 2022-01-01 02:25
Dear Sunny, a great fern student was the wonderful writer and neurologist Oliver Sacks. Ferns were one of his great passions. I was fortunate to correspond with him...not about ferns, but about music.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
Post Edited (2022-01-01 02:36)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2022-01-01 03:56
There's an attraction near here called Grounds for Sculpture where it's grown in several spots on the grounds, including one place where it's used as a screen in front of a giant sculpture reproduction of American Gothic to represent corn stalks.
It seems to grow quite well. Unfortunately, I don't think the local growths are of reed-making quality.
Karl
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2022-01-01 07:56
Cane of many types is commonly used as a windbreak or a partition hedge. It only has to remain in place to do its job. But for cane that is cut into reeds, the fibers have to be just right for that very different kind of application. No doubt the nutrients in the soil (silicon, boron, calcium, for example) contribute to producing varieties suitable for vibrating on woodwind instruments. The cane producers in the Var region probably have much secret lore and trade information about that, gleaned both by long experience on the soil as well as more modern scientific experimentation that they seldom or never disclose to outsiders.
In New Orleans on the marshy borders of the Lafite Green walking trail, large stands of horsetail (Equistrum or reed rush) grow, with their green silica ridges looking close up like the ridges on a metal file. Passing them, I often wonder if they could be ground to powder and added as a soil amendment where Arundo donax is growing, of if they could be boiled down into a compost tea and sprayed on the cane fields to make the cane grow with stiffer ridges. The Var growers probably go way beyond such naive and fledging ideas in their soil preparation and fertilization
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-01-01 12:28
That's brilliant to have so much knowledge of Arundo donax. I had no idea that it was considered invasive in some places, though looking at the pictures, I can well imagine that it is.
Ruben - I didn't know that Oliver Sacks was keen on ferns too. That's nice to know. I also wrote to him back in the day, but about visual processing rather than music. He was an amazing guy. It's lovely to know that you knew him too.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-01-01 12:33
Seabreeze - that article says it grows to 4.57m in height! That is a serious grass plant!
I can't begin to imagine what it would be like to cope with an invasive grass that grows to nearly 5m tall. That's basically like bamboo isn't it? Eeeek!
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Author: Slowoldman
Date: 2022-01-01 20:14
I'm curious about the opposite view of the "Global Warming and Cane" issue. Specifically, I was watching a show on PBS which stated that regions where cane/reed plants are taking over previously-forested areas are much more of a carbon source to the atmosphere, rather than a "sink". (I don't think the cane production fields for woodwind reeeds amount to a significant percentage of all the planet's reedy-growth plants, but it's the principle.)
Can any of the plant folks in this thread comment?
Should we be encouraging more companies to put efforts into better synthetics and should we musicians start to move away from cane?
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Author: el gitano
Date: 2022-01-01 21:20
hi @SunnyDaze,
I`ve seen your microscopic photos. It looks for me -a carpenter- same like wood.
Cane is moreless like wood. But wood has summer and winter parts (years).
¿The cane has it too?
I aske, because by drying o swelling it will influence the formstability of the cane.
On the photos I cannot see it.
Regards
Claus
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2022-01-01 22:21
Slowoldman wrote:
> I'm curious about the opposite view of the "Global Warming and
> Cane" issue. Specifically, I was watching a show on PBS which
> stated that regions where cane/reed plants are taking over
> previously-forested areas are much more of a carbon source to
> the atmosphere, rather than a "sink".
>
> Can any of the plant folks in this thread comment?
> Should we be encouraging more companies to put efforts into
> better synthetics and should we musicians start to move away
> from cane?
While I'm not a botanist like Jen, (thanks BTW for your content Jen), I can say this. Plants of all types are a "savings bank" if you will for carbon dioxide. When alive their use it as a raw ingredient in photosynthesis, binding it essentially into the mass that becomes a plant's height and width.
Eventually, like all living things, these plants perish and give the CO2 they've collected back to the environment in the form of their natural decay on the ground, or significantly more expeditiously, as a result of combustion.
Now, is it possible that some plants with longer life spans are better at capturing CO2 for longer periods until we can figure out solutions: sure.
Of course global warming concerns me far beyond my interests as a clarinetist, but within the clarinet realm I am more concerned with its possible effect on reeds than wood for instruments.
Sadly, while man is the likely the main cause of Global warming, and certainly the over-cultivation of African blackwood, Global warming is not what's left this instrument producing plant in short supply: a plant originally chosen for clarinet production many believe because of its relative inexpense at the time to cultivate and machine, not because (at any cost) in represented the best thing to make a clarinet out of, particularly today.
I believe there are, and will be more solutions to short supply of this wood in plastics, rubber, carbon fiber, and who knows what else. But like Jen said, there is a delicate balance of soil, temperature, and wind that makes this "weed" arundo donax we play those instruments on only suitable when its strength is sufficiently amplified in growth under the windy conditions that strain it, and then cause it to grow (heal if you will) in response.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2022-01-01 22:36
I can only take baby steps towards understanding something as complicated as the carbon "footprint" of reeds. At the "Ecowatch, the conversation," site an article, "Planting Non-Native Trees Accelerates Carbon Release," suggests that ANY non-native plant, even beloved tree species, can adversely affect carbon sequestration in the area where it is planted. Another article (by bamboo specialist Fred Hornady) asserts that Arundo donax, outside of its native region, may however be an especially noxious weed because its leaves contain potent alkaloids and tryptamine that kill would-be insect predators and enable the cane to "choke out" the native plants more effectively than most non-native trees would do. Arundo donax is also disturbingly flammable, so it is most unwelcome on the west coast currently ravaged by wild fires.
Another problem with Arundo donax fields is that they can be examples of monoculture, and plant monoculture if not handled with great knowledge and intelligence can be very destructive to the ecology of a region. When something goes wrong in a monoculture, it tends to go very wrong. Consider the Potato Famine of the 19th century. The diversity of plants in polyculture more easily creates an ideal carbon balance as well as resistance to plant disease. I don't know to what extent the Var cane fields are pure monocultures or incorporate some mix of other native plants. In California, the Arundo donax has tended to eradicate the willow and cottonwood plants that native wildlife like to munch on, and wildlife populations have suffered as a consequence.
One final baby step: Legere reeds are made from polypropylene (derived from propylene, a biproduct of natural gas). What is the carbon footprint of making polypropylene and fashioning it into reeds and then discarding these reeds back into landfills? Can anyone do an accurate quantification of the ecological cost of the life cycle of polypropylene reeds vs that of Arundo donax reeds? How much carbon in (sequestration) and how much carbon out (carbon release), and over what time spans?
Post Edited (2022-01-02 00:33)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-01-02 02:17
I suppose the bottom line is that we need to put pressure on the companies to make their operations carbon neutral. Would that be right?
I mean everybody at the moment is under pressure to do that, including households and schools and government and big corporations. I suppose companies that make clarinet reeds are the same. Presumably both the cane reed and synthetic reed production techniques can be made carbon neutral one way or another. I mean if Microsoft can become zero carbon, then I presume that a plant-growing company can.
I wrote to another scientist friend of mine who is a professor in a department of climate science, to ask if she knows how we find the truth about which products are better for the environment. Hopefully she might know.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-01-02 02:32
Hi Claus,
That's a really interesting question. I don't actually know if big grasses have annual rings as I've never studied grass anatomy in particular. I could google and find out though.
I had a quick look just now and found several references looking at the effect on Arundo donax of being blown about be the wind.
In this reference here:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-os1kvkFbS0C&pg=PA489&lpg=PA489&dq=annual+rings+in+their+stems+arundo+donax&source=bl&ots=zqob1V_lKE&sig=ACfU3U1eQh8OzvbY-5R_L5x4FHJJcnwG-Q&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjfifS-yZH1AhVHXsAKHejdDwkQ6AF6BAgtEAM#v=onepage&q=annual%20rings%20in%20their%20stems%20arundo%20donax&f=false
It says a whole bunch about it in the paragraph starting "We now know"
I can't cut and paste from it and it is quite long and detailed, so I'll just leave the link for folks to follow. The summary is that the good stiff reeds have fewer vascular bundles, but that those vascular bundles have a higher proportion of fibrous cells round about them which stiffen the reed. It says that having more vascular bundles is not an advantage.
Vascular bundles are the clumps of drinking-straw-like pipes that run through the grass plant stem. The xylem is the water pipes which allow water from the roots to go up to the leaves. The phloem is the sugar pipe, through which sugar travels down from the leaves to the roots.
This paper here:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/56447
is a study that looks at how much Arundo donax plants get bent when the wind blows and attempts to quantify it. That's a pretty specific kind of project isn't it?
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-01-02 02:33
Here's more:
This page says that Arundo donax stems have to be in their second year of growth to be woody enough to make a reed:
https://arundoresearch.com/harvesting-and-curing-arundo-donax-for-reed-cane/
so if there were rings forming then that would be an important part of it.
However, looking at this page of stem cross-section images, I don't really see rings.
https://www.google.com/search?q=arundo+donax+stem+cross+section+&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwjt89XmzJH1AhVK8IUKHZviCwwQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=arundo+donax+stem+cross+section+&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzIHCCMQ7wMQJ1DTCVjTCWC-C2gAcAB4AIABe4gB5AGSAQMwLjKYAQCgAQGqAQtnd3Mtd2l6LWltZ8ABAQ&sclient=img&ei=cNXQYe37JMrglwSbxa9g&bih=753&biw=1423#imgrc=zP3QL3czBIJuYM
Maybe we would only see rings if the cane was 4 or 5 years old?
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-01-02 03:47
I wrote to Legere and Vandoren to ask if they have a plan for achieving carbon neutrality. I imagine this week, like the rest of us, they may be concentrating on reaching Tuesday. I know I am.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2022-01-02 08:53
SunnyDaze wrote:
> I wrote to Legere and Vandoren to ask if they have a plan for
> achieving carbon neutrality. I imagine this week, like the rest
> of us, they may be concentrating on reaching Tuesday. I know I
> am.
Jen:
I think I'm missing something.
I mean sure, the planting, cultivation, cutting, packaging and shipping aspects of getting a reed from seed to my mouthpiece all leave their share of green footprint. Then there are the monospecies environmental effects you talked of
But the product's carbon neutral no? Newton's law of thermodynamics tells us that the CO2 it binds to produce mass is let off in kind when the used up reed decomposes, naturally or by fire.
And it's not like shipping money can be saved by growing the stuff closer to the consumer, given the limited environments in which arundo donax for reed use can grow, like, say, some edible crops.
Thoughts?
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-01-02 10:56
Hi SecondTry,
Thanks, yes I do see what you mean.
I think it's a bit hard to know if it's currently carbon neutral, because there are a lot of activities involves in making and shipping the cane that clearly release huge mounts of carbon into the atmosphere. Things like heating the factory, running the factory machines, and running the lorries and planes that deliver the reeds all over the world. Those things are very energy intensive, and it's not clear whether growing a load of cane would counterbalance those other elements.
In comparing cane to synthetics, there is the question of whether cane could be made closer to the user communities to reduce transport. So if synthetics could easily be made in every country of the world to reduce transport, then that would help it to be carbon neutral. However, if cane can only be grown in a few locations and has to be shipped, then that means it's harder to be carbon neutral.
I suppose people would also want to know what else would be growing in the var region if cane was not growing there. I mean is there a question along the lines of palm oil growing in the place of tropical rain forest? I presume that growing palm oil is good because it is growing a plant, but if they tear down loads of tropical rainforest to grow it, then that is bad.
I presume that the var region would not normally have rainforest or peat bogs or wetland natural environments, and I presume that cane growing activities are not rapidly expanding to cover much larger geographical areas, so that side of things is probably fine. But I think it's one of the things that people would look at when considering whether synthetic is better than cane.
I think that calculating whether something is good or bad for climate change is quite complicated.
Jen
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-01-02 14:21
I see people are trying to 3D print clarinet reeds now too.
https://3dprint.com/210539/3d-printed-clarinet-reeds/
https://www.thingiverse.com/search?q=clarinet+reed&type=things&sort=relevant
That cuts out a lot of the transportation carbon of the reed itself, but I have no idea how energy intensive it is making the printing fillament and transporting it.
P.S. I just 3D printed a clarinet reed, and it sounds ghastly and actually has a hole in it. Cane reeds looking very safe from where I am.
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Soprano Sax American Cut #2, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2022-01-02 20:46)
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2022-01-02 21:25
SunnyDaze wrote:
> Hi SecondTry,
>
> Thanks, yes I do see what you mean.
>
> I think it's a bit hard to know if it's currently carbon
> neutral, because there are a lot of activities involves in
> making and shipping the cane that clearly release huge mounts
> of carbon into the atmosphere.
Hey Jen. I don't mean to be “challenging” here with you, but for me, there's no question that harvesting arundo donax for reed production is not carbon neutral.
This isn't to say that there aren't other industries which are far greater polluters, or that reed producers could not benefit from rethinking some of their processes to become more green.
You can be though that such changes will likely result in increased prices as we the consumer share some of the costs of this industry becoming more green--despite the relatively small producer that the industry is in the larger scheme of life.
At least the natural development of the product is carbon neutral, like proper forestry management, where the product harvested and destined to give of its CO2 in its decay shortly thereafter is replaced by new growth that absorbs that CO2 in kind. It is though clear to any environmental scientists that all the planting of photosynthetic organisms in the world (those organisms that turn CO2 into mass) won't, from a long term geological perspective, change CO2 levels. As originally mentioned, such plants are merely a “savings account” for CO2, absorbing it during growth, and releasing it in kind during decay.
By no means am I against more photosynthetic life, particular those with long life spans. It buys us time to figure out how to truly encapsulate CO2 in ways that is not quickly released.
As home created synthetic reeds are concerned, clearly, there is more to reed production here than matching the contours of our favorite brands, even to tolerances that are less than a fraction of a millimeter. The unique chemistry of the underlying raw material, and how that material is shaped (e.g. injection molded) which you can bet involves a carbon footprint, is also at play. But the idea you raise of creating this synthetic product closer to consumers is interesting from a green perspective.
It's funny you mention heating the factory. As you may know, Buffet use to use the shavings of wood in clarinet creation in their furnaces until it introduced its Green line of instruments where said shavings were mixed with epoxies to make clarinets.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-01-02 23:42
Hi SecondTry.
Thanks for explaining that clearly. That was the point that I was trying to make too, though I mustn't have made a very good job of it from your response. Sorry about that.
My point was that making and shipping cane reeds is clearly not carbon neutral because of all the transportation costs and whatnot. But that it might be a good start since it at least involves growing loads of plants.
Jen
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Soprano Sax American Cut #2, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2022-01-02 23:59)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-01-02 23:58
The point that you make about growing loads of plants not being enough is an interesting one. I think maybe loads of plants would be enough, if there were not also loads of people living in a certain way that is not sustainable.
Is it okay if I chip in a bit more plant science just in case it's useful? I'm not sure if this stuff it already blindingly obvious to everyone, but here it is just in case.
This story is a bit approximate, but it's how I understand climate change:
Way back in geological time, there was a period when the earth was super-hot and the atmosphere was full of carbon dioxide, and there were no plants. In those days there were only bacteria.
Then, fairly suddenly, the bacteria got clever and turned into algae. The algae could take in carbon dioxide and release oxygen, which had never happened before.
Pretty soon after that, single-celled algae developed into multi-celled plants. Like algae, they were able to take the carbon dioxide out of the air and release oxygen in its place. In doing do, they used the carbon to build more plant parts. They captured energy from the sun, like giant solar powered factories.
As the plants grew and died, they fell to the ground. They did that so fast, in such great piles, that their decaying plant parts got covered over, before they had fully decayed. Locked under the ground, they decayed, not into compost, but into coal and oil. This coal and oil locked all the pesky carbon under ground and allowed the earth's atmosphere to switch from mostly carbon dioxide to containing quite a lot of oxygen. The earth cooled down and became quite hospitable for animals to come into existence. After a while, there were a lot of animals, and then there were also people.
That was good for a while until the people started digging up the coal and oil and burning it to run trains, cars, heating systems, aeroplanes and whathaveyou. This also allowed them to grow a lot of food, and quite suddenly the easy availability of food meant that there were huge numbers of people.
Then after a while, the release of the carbon from the burning of the dug up coal and oil meant that the earth's atmosphere started to have too much carbon dioxide in it again. The atmosphere got a bit too hot for the people to be really comfortable, and that was a problem. The huge population of people needed the coal to help them grow enough food, so it was hard for them to stop burning the coal and oil.
The people needed to give up using coal to make the atmosphere cool, but in their huge numbers, they were dependent on it in order to grow enough food.
It was a real dilemma...
(This is my understanding of what our problem is. It's kind of approximate, but as far I understand, that's what's going on.)
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Soprano Sax American Cut #2, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2022-01-03 00:03)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-01-03 13:55
Here is a reply from Vandoren:
We are also musicians, we understand your concern and all our researches have always been to find processes that combine an efficiency for the musician, state-of-the art technology and environmental preoccupations. This is not simple. You will see a technical answer below:
Vandoren exports 95% of its reeds worldwide, and often the journey is long to the musician, in distance and time, in very dry or very humid climates. And the box of reeds can be stocked or displayed in the sunny frontage of a shop, with conditioned air.
That is why we had to find a way to send « Factory Fresh » reeds with a « Flow Pack » that prevents the reed from humidity changes ; and keep each reed flat with an individual reed protector.
The plastic reed protector is made of 100% recyclable polypropylene (with the triangular symbol pp5). Depending upon the country, it can be put in cans for recycling. Our patented protector was released in 1985, it guarantees a flat hold of the reed. Of course once the flow pack is open, we can put the reed in a reedcase.
Flow Pack film. The "flow pack", released in 2005, is made of recyclable film (whose calorific value during incineration is important). The choice of our supplier was made according to the technical constraints related to the performance of the flow pack for the protection of the reed, but also vis-à-vis an ecological approach (company certified ISO14001 which concerns the environmental management .
Our cellophane for reeds boxes is a very common type based on polypropylene.
In addition, we are continuing our research to use biodegradable or compostable films. The fineness of the films we use has the advantage of limiting the volume of waste in comparison with other packaging solutions such as waterproof box or hygrometry maintenance methods.
Concerning cardboard boxes and cases as well as all of our prints, we decided to entrust their realization to companies strongly committed to the path of ecology.
I take this opportunity to tell you about the reed and its culture:
The reed used as material for making reeds is a 100% natural plant. It should be emphasized that the shiny part of the reed is not varnish but the natural bark of the reed. Reed cane waste resulting from the manufacture of reeds is fully reused either as powder and compost in our plantations or to feed the boiler that heats our plant. This recent, high-efficiency facility releases only water vapor and CO2 into the atmosphere. It is important to underline that Co2 being of plant origin, and not fossil, its dissemination in the atmosphere does not contribute to the increase of the greenhouse gas emission. The quantity released during combustion is in fact globally offset by the amount of atmospheric Co2 absorbed by the plant during its two years of growth. We do not use any chemicals in earth.
Regarding the transportation of the reeds, we favor the train and the boat instead of the plane when possible.
Please follow us on our social networks as we will regularly give information on every improvement concerning environment.
Hoping this helps you to understand our concerns and our processes, we remain,
Sincerely yours,
Vandoren Paris
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-01-04 14:28
Here is my reply from a grass biologist who is a friend of a friend:
"Not aware of any work on your exact question; this species is a problematic invasive so most research is looking at how to limit its spread.
The only colleague I know who has done detailed genetics and anatomical work on this group (Arundo) is Laurent Hardion in Strasbourg: https://orcid.org/0000-0002-4574-6354.
Dave Richardson and the Centre for Invasion Biology at Stellenbosch University have done work on invasiveness in South Africa: https://blogs.sun.ac.za/cib/ "
So if the academic science community are looking at Arundo donax from the point of view of reed production, then the work is not well known.
More space for newcomers to think about it though, which is good if we fancy a go.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-01-04 22:58
Here is a reply from Legere:
"Thank you for the message.
There are no plans at this time to become carbon neutral, though it has not yet been brought up so we haven't yet looked into it. We're always looking towards reducing our environmental impact, which was one of the reasons for our packaging redesign, so it is a possibility for the future. Our new packaging is completely recyclable, including the reed case. In fact, our reeds are recyclable as well, and always have been. There are always more avenues we can look towards to improve our environmental consciousness, however!
I will pass your suggestion along to our team, thank you for the feedback.
All the best,
Legere"
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2022-01-05 00:04
Polypropylene, the polymer Legere reeds are made of, also happens to be one of the main filtration materials used in the many thousand N95, KN95, and KF94 masks currently worn for COVID19 protection. So both of those products will share in the disposal (recycling) problem. Global warming is probably not nearly as affected by Arundo donax or polypropylene production and use as it is by internal combustion engines, fossil fuel combustion, and inadequate building insulation. Switching to solar, wind, tidal and other renewable energy sources, retrofitting homes, factories, and transportation vehicles to run on electric energy, and making more use of wood and geopolymers as building materials are surely more important to controlling the carbon cycle than the small enterprises of woodwind reed manufacture ever could be. Still, all the small changes in environmental awareness and sustainable trade practices add up too.
Post Edited (2022-01-05 00:56)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-01-05 11:09
Hi Seabreeze.
I completely agree. I was really cheered to know that Vandoren are trying to focus on boat and train transport over planes and that they use the grass to heat their factory.
Jen
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2022-01-05 21:03
...not to be a party pooper but given the relatively long shelf life of unused reeds, transportation by large vessel (train/boat) probably has more to do with keeping costs down than controlling greenhouse gases.
Sure. it's nice to know that in this case that the more polluting means of conveyance is also the more expensive. In fact it's the very lack of the consumer paying for the negative externalities of choices (e.g. the cost of cleaning up the environment not fully reflected in the cost of gasoline) that has slowed the progression to renewables, even if, in fairness, paying $15 gallon for gasoline right now would cause many families to quite literally starve.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2022-01-06 02:05
SunnyDaze,
As an amateur historian, I suspect that a massive change in human consciousness of the same order that occurred when Louis Pasteur's theory of "germs" finally gained acceptance will be needed if the human race is to survive the global warming crisis. Prior to Pasteur the prevailing theories of disease involved "miasmas" of bad air and the balance of body "humors" like phlegm and bile. The prevailing establishment laughed at Pasteur's idea that minute organisms too small to be seen by the unaided eye could possibly cause disease. Most people in "developed" societies bathed at best once a week. There is the story that Queen Elizabeth, upon hearing that Native Americans bathed often, perhaps daily, shrieked in horror that they would surely catch their death of cold. After Pasteur, people began soaping up daily and practicing modern hygiene because they correctly believed that microrganisms were real and had to be kept in check.
But for some time, it was an uphill battle to get people to accept the reality of the germ theory and change their daily habits of hygiene accordingly. So far, not enough people accept the theory that fossil fuel combustion layers the atmosphere with misplaced carbon, trapping heat, and causing massive climate disruption. That macroeffect is as invisible to them as the microworld of bacteria was before Pasteur! Perhaps we need a charismatic figure like Pasteur or Einstein to help us realign our view of reality. Fire and combustion are not a Promethean steal from the gods to man; no matter how much "progress" they may have driven during the Industrial Revolution or how "romantic" they may seem in the fireplace, they are, or have become, a curse. They need to be replaced by more benign processes like electric motors, solar and wind electricity, solar thermal and geothermal controls, induction cooking, hydrogen fuel cells, and conservation of energy and heat by advances in building materials and insulation. If the day arrives when everyone routinely chooses these alternatives to open fossil fuel combustion, just as they now choose to wash daily and keep surfaces clean in the name of hygiene, then the climate change battle will be won.
Post Edited (2022-01-10 23:48)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-01-06 02:35
Hi Seabreeze,
I hadn't thought about it that way, but I think you've probably hit the nail on the head there.
I can imagine in decades to come people will look back and wonder if we were completely nuts, living the way we do now. It's just that it's hard to imagine how we are meant to live, before we have seen the proper way demonstrated.
I hadn't realised that the whole business of not liking to have a bath was connected with people not having access to heating. I know at least one person in the previous generation of my family grew up without heating and it's always boggled my mind how that could possibly work. I don't think I would like to find out tbh.
Jen
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2022-01-06 06:04
One might be hard pressed to find a forum more distanced from global warming than one like this, centered around clarinet play.
Then again, as forums are run by humans, and global warming represents a true threat to our existence, and without us, clarinets wouldn't much matter, (except maybe as weapons for what high level species might survive such climate change,) in this regard, no forum is that distanced from this problem.
If this is possible, I hold both enormous respect and disdain for our species. On the one hand, our ingenuity and finest human qualities have tackled what seemed like insurmountable problems of the past. On the other hand, there's this speech, from the fictional movie The Matrix, which has more basis in truth I'm afraid that some non-fictional works.
https://youtu.be/L5foZIKuEWQ
Even assuming we can get enough of the world on board with the idea that Global Warming is real, man made, man solvable, and that time is of the essence, we are then forced to not only NOT pass responsibility for solving this problem on to others, but tolerate others acting this way.
Humans tend to be better at solving problems when highly motivated, which tends to happen only after the “fit has hit the shan.” Events often need to leave people scared poopless before truly begining to take action, which in the case of global warming, may only occur after reversal of our demise can only, at best, be slowed down, if at all, as opposed to being reversed.
As an example, I am confident that the world will come up with an adequate if not superior substitute for the African Blackwood we overcultivated for profit to make musical instruments. But I'm not confident that the world can preventably police its own demise. I pray I am wrong.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-01-06 15:49
I think you're absolutely right on all counts.
My feeling, with my biologist hat on, is that if we don't solve this problem, then Mother Nature will solve it for us. Her usual tools for dealing with over-population are famine, war and disease, all of which tend to reduce population pretty swiftly. Going by the current covid situation, I would say she's already kicked off with the disease option, unfortunately. (sorry - that's a bit of a glum thought).
Looking at the more cheerful side of things, as hobbies go, I think that playing an accoustic instrument is pretty great for being environmentally friendly.
I mean if you think of it as compared to other common hobbies:
- Doing loads of different construction projects (loads of consumables and power tools)
- Taking tons of foreign holidays (jet fuel).
- Being a gourmet cook with a passion for imported food.
- Fast fashion, where clothes are bought and worn only a few times before throwing away.
These are not good for the environment.
Conversely, a clarinet just requires the one-off purchase of an instrument, and some reeds. That's it. No charging or new tools and hardly any consumables really except a few reeds. No more travel after it reaches your house.
Playing music is also a brilliant way to spread harmony and keep people friendly, and that is an important thing when nerves are frayed, as they are at the moment. Hugely important I think.
So if we could all resist the temptation to buy non FSC-certified blackwood clarinets, then I think we are in a pretty good place. Then we need to look after our clarinets as though they were made of gold dust. So dry them thoroughly, store them carefully, get them serviced, and generally love them to bits.
Also it would be good to pass on our spare clarinets, so people who need one, do not need to buy a new one, but can buy secondhand.
It's also great to share wisdom about how to maintain them, as is done so beautifully on this list. The longer a clarinet lasts, the fewer trees have to be cut down to make new ones.
Also advice on how to make reeds last is really helpful, and how to get as many reeds as possible to actually work, so we don't need to bin them. That is great too.
Then we need to sit tight, play and love our clarinets, and try not to burn too many fossil fuels while do it. That's my take on it.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2022-01-06 16:44
sUNNY: Thank you for your wisdom, eloquence and humanity.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-01-06 16:47
Thanks Ruben, I'm glad that you think that what I said was okay. It's a very difficult subject to approach.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2022-01-17 08:10
Hi Rubin, I pop in occasionally. I've been busy with some new projects, I went through back surgery, that went very well. Anyway, I've been getting several offers to do Master Classes, so there is that need to practice several hours a day. Pretty fun. I've been very impressed with how gifted some of these new clarinetists are. They make me smile even as I write this! Take care folks!
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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The Clarinet Pages
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