 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bill
Date: 2019-12-14 22:52
What's the most common fix attempted when middle of the staff B can't be played (sounded) with just the left pinky (requires right pinky F/C key as well)?
I fully understand that this maladjustment could be for any of several reasons! I get that! I'm just asking *if* there is a common fix that is attempted first, before others are explored?
Thanks in advance. I have this in two other clarinets as well (I own multiple clarinets). Driving me nuts!
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-12-15 01:26
You are experiencing a "crow's foot" issue. Just take the lower joint and look under the stack of four R pinky keys when you depress the L pinky "B." Now, ALSO depress the R pinky "C." It will move further down to complete closing the upper big cup you are seeing.
I would just wedge the tip of my thumb under the "crow's foot" and then press on that top cup just enough to bend it further down. If you over do that, just press on the R pinky "C" key until you bend it back to where you need it.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: paulyb
Date: 2019-12-15 01:40
Does the B sound with only the *right* E/B pinkie key? If not then it's most likely a problem with the "crow's foot" which is the piece of metal that sits under the RH E/B and F#/C# keys. This pulls the F/C key down when those keys are depressed.
I would *not* recommend trying to adjust the crow's foot by bending it yourself as it's easy to cause more problems - take it to a tech and they should be able to fix it for you in a few seconds.
If you need a short term fix you can try adding adjustment material to the top of the crow's foot which will pull the F/C key closed more. Try using a little of the sticky part of a post it note. Add more layers until you have something that works for you.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-12-15 04:21
Judicious bending can be a very easy and prudent fix. Think about it. You get a clarinet that is IN adjustment, and then it slips out of sync. Many of those issues are caused by the keys bending OUT of alignment.
Many years ago there were inexpensive horns that utilized pot metal for keywork. Pot metal did NOT have any tensil strength and would snap rather than bend. This caused many to avoid the idea of minor bending for generations. I have not run into keywork in my career that resisted bending when necessary. In fact I have run into some keywork that is far too bendable, such as the Lebanc Opus clarinets from the late '80s. You could shim those crowfeet all you want and in a few weeks they'd be back out of adjustment.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2019-12-15 05:27
Paul Aviles wrote:
> You are experiencing a "crow's foot" issue.
> I would just wedge the tip of my thumb under the "crow's foot"
> and then press on that top cup just enough to bend it further
> down.
The mis-adjustment can also be caused by worn cork or other silencing materials on the linkage of the LH lever keys. Bending the crow's foot or the F/C pad cup can be a first-aid solution in those cases, but it may still need more involved work elsewhere in the linkage.
Also, sometimes it's the E/B pad that doesn't close when the F/C pad closes. If that's the case, you'd need to hold the E/B key up and bend the E/B cup down.
Something to be careful of in bending a pad cup lower is that the angle of the pad cup will change slightly and the pad may no longer be level to the tone hole. The front of the pad may now hit before the back does, which can cause a leak. You should probably check that the pad seals all the way around with a feeler (a wedge of cigarette or other thin paper will work) after bending either one.
Karl
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2019-12-15 07:45
What model of clarinet? By far most have a crow's foot linkage, but some don't.
If it does have it, first make sure the linkage material on it is still there. Not that common for it to fall, but simplest to find.
As mentioned this material could also just be worn, etc.
Most likely that it is bent.
>> sometimes it's the E/B pad that doesn't close when the F/C pad closes. <<
This is possible and the much less common case of the two.
>> Does the B sound with only the *right* E/B pinkie key? If not... <<
If it does, it's still most likely a problem with the crow's foot (I know you didn't say that it wasn't, but worth clarifying). Actually the most common case is that the crow's foot is out of adjustment, but it feels pretty much ok with the right hand. That's because there's more flex through all the linkages and levers of the left pinky key, so it requires less force to close both keys with the right pinky key i.e. you overcome some misadjustment only with the right pinky key.
>> Something to be careful of in bending a pad cup lower is that the angle of the pad cup will change slightly and the pad may no longer be level to the tone hole. <<
The better clarinets are (or at least should be... actually all clarinets should be...) designed is such a way that this twists the hinge and doesn't cause that. Or at least not in a significant way to affect the angle. Some clarinets have a poor design that flexes enough to resist this adjustment, or even the key cup itself can sometimes bend (terrible design).
Statistically (what the OP seems to be interested in) the most likely problem is that the crow's foot is out of adjustment, and most of the time teachers/players fix it (temporarily) by gluing some tape or paper to it (usually to the bottom of the E/B touchpiece).
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Author: Jarmo Hyvakko
Date: 2019-12-15 21:45
Don't bend keys!!
Two reasons: the cork in the crows foot under the rh e-b key is either too thick or thin. Can be checked with cigarette paper. Press rh e-b key lightly down with cigarette paper under either pad to test if the pad grips the paper equally.
Other reason, and very obvious one, because your rh fingering works, is that the e-b pad leaks. Left hand key has such a long shaft, that it doesn't press the key as strongly as the right hand key. Go to a GOOD repairsman. Getting the crows foot plus nonleaking e-b pad is the most difficult thing in french clarinet key adjustment.
Jarmo Hyvakko, Principal Clarinet, Tampere Philharmonic, Finland
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Author: Jarmo Hyvakko
Date: 2019-12-15 21:53
Don't bend keys!!
Two reasons: the cork in the crows foot under the rh e-b key is either too thick or thin. Can be checked with cigarette paper. Press rh e-b key lightly down with cigarette paper under either pad to test if the pad grips the paper equally.
Other reason, and very obvious one, because your rh fingering works, is that the e-b pad leaks. Left hand key has such a long shaft, that it doesn't press the key as strongly as the right hand key. Go to a GOOD repairsman. Getting the crows foot plus nonleaking e-b pad is the most difficult thing in french clarinet key adjustment.
Jarmo Hyvakko, Principal Clarinet, Tampere Philharmonic, Finland
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-12-15 23:11
I rejoin only to point out that the reason many keys wind up maladjusted is that they.......bend that way (in the case, hitting the floor, over anxious fingers). So bending them back to normal is only restoring order that has been lost.
Granted, standard wear DOES involve corks (and other such damping material) becoming compressed, and in an ideal world replacing with new or adding thin shims is the best way to go. However the original poster was looking for an easy fix and bending keys (for ring heights too!) is the way I go 90% of the time.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2019-12-16 00:06
Bill, this is quite the opposite of a quick fix, but I think you should be aware of that also play in the keywork could be the cause. If it is, you could still adjust (by bending, adding material to the cork or removing it, etc) either the r.h. or l.h. key to close the e/b tone hole properly, but not both.
You can easily check possible play by gripping the e/b key axle with your fingers and trying to rattle it back and forth along its length. If you can feel a movement or hear a clicking noise, there is probably too much play.
A sort of quick fix could be thin washers or shims made of plastic or metal to put between the end of the axle and the post it's connected to (I keep such ones at hand, ready made). However, a more long-lasting and proper fix can be made by a qualified tech with the right kind of equipment (certain pliers constructed to stretch a tube or axle back to a proper fit).
After such a fix there is no problem in adjusting the keys so that both the l.h. and r.h. keys closes the tonehole as they should.
Post Edited (2019-12-16 00:28)
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Author: donald
Date: 2019-12-16 00:10
I prefer to leave the bending of keys OR the adding of Cork to the repair person in this case (crows foot adjustment) and have a simple 'temporary hack".
Sticky labels.
Find the gap that Paul mentions, and one at a time add a sticky label under the key (between key and crows foot) until the gap is filled. They can be easily removed by the repair tech, and if you add too many (add too many and the E/B pad won't close, a new problem) just take them off and start over (easy if you've counted layers).
Over the years I've used little round ones, big ones cut into smaller bits, airmail slickers from the post office etc
In schools etc someone always has some in a drawer somewhere, and it's easy to take a few extra so you have some at the ready... I seem to have to do this repair for my students at least once every few weeks, and sometimes my hack repair keeps their clarinets operating for months.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2019-12-16 00:41
donald wrote:
> I prefer to leave the bending of keys OR the adding of Cork to
> the repair person in this case (crows foot adjustment) and have
> a simple 'temporary hack".
> Sticky labels.
I've used those (the sticky ends of Post-its) and they work very well as a temporary fix, although the last time I used them to get a bass clarinet working the repairman I eventually brought it to was a little dismissive.
As to bending keys, as I was growing up and then beginning my playing and teaching career, there were two well-respected repairers in the Philadelphia area. One, Hans Moennig, bent things into place with no qualms. His work is, of course legendary. The other, not so well known nationally, but very well-known in the area, was Leonard Zapf. Leonard avoided bending anything if he could - changed or sanded corks and melted the glue to level pads rather than move the pad cup after the pad was mounted, as Moennig routinely did.
They both produced excellent results. There's usually more than one way to skin a cat.
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2019-12-16 01:03
I see far too many clarinets with the F/C key out of adjustment with the E/B key - mainly Buffets as the F/C touchpiece casting is very soft and prone to bending if too much pressure is applied to it whilst it's in the case.
And another thing I see too often is bits of stuff stuck to the underside of the E/B touch or to the crow's foot which may or may not work depending on the understanding (or misunderstanding) of the person sticking stuff on there when it's not necessary and often makes the problem worse.
The crow's foot isn't to blame - it's the F/C touchpiece that's the source of the problem when it gets bent. It's pretty easy to bend it back into adjustment PROVIDED you know what you're doing and I don't advise anyone unless they know where and how much they need to bend the F/C key by to put it back into correct regulation.
If you use a soft sided case, don't overload the sheet music pocket on the lid and if it's a hard case, make sure the inside of the case isn't putting undue prssure on it (usually if the lid cushion is too thick) or if you put anything else on top of the clarinet whilst it's in its case.
And you don't need to sand the crow's foot cork - you don't adjust it by sanding it as the adjustment is done much better by carefully bending the keys. Plus it looks like crap and amateurish having corks sanded leaving them uneven. Use an even thickness of whatever thickness is necessary and the finer adjustments are done by bending.
I don't even use cork on it as I prefer ultrasuede as it's much better in keeping the mechanical noise down and doesn't have anywhere near as much friction as natural cork. I prefer not to use natural cork as key corks on clarinets as there are far better alternatives - while I use cork pads and natural cork for tenon corks, I only use natural cork as a stopper on the throat A key (and also the LH2 ring key stopper to keep it raised off the body to make assembly easier) and use ultrasuede or tech cork everywhere else depending on the application.
If your E/B won't speak without having to hold the F/C key down, then take it straight to someone who understands what they're doing to put it back into regulation as they can often do this in a heartbeat and it may not even cost you anything if they're in a generous mood.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2019-12-16 02:59
Chris P wrote:
> And another thing I see too often is bits of stuff stuck to the
> underside of the E/B touch or to the crow's foot which may or
> may not work depending on the understanding (or
> misunderstanding) of the person sticking stuff on there when
> it's not necessary and often makes the problem worse.
>
I hear you, Chris. But be charitable. Sometimes a job comes up and you can't get an appointment with your repair guy until a week after the performance.
Necessary or not, that kind of shimming may be the most expedient way if I'm not sure what's actually needed, and it's far less destructive than many other ways when I'm in doubt about where the problem really is. Especially on a bass with all those adjusting screws that can back out of adjustment. In any case, I've never noticed any residue from the Post-it note ends.
Then the repair guy gets it the week after the concert and all is well for next time.
Karl
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Author: Bill
Date: 2019-12-16 06:44
Thank you for these responses. I am studying them. Thanks for your generosity!
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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Author: donald
Date: 2019-12-16 10:22
Many of my students would have to rely on parents (who may be working on the other side of our congested city) to get their instrument to a repair shop. Then they MAY have a wait of a week of more (I can usually arrange for my personal repairs to be done quickly, often when I wait, but there's no guarantee my students will have the same leverage).
I can do a DIY repair that can be easily removed by the final repair person. This ensures that my student can play with correct technique (ie B to C# using alternate fingers rather than sliding around and getting bad habits).
OR I can try bending keys, and perhaps being liable for professional repairs if my efforts fail, make it worse, damage key plating. Stupid, when I trust a professional to do the job right, and better than I can.
Say what you will, but I've been using sticky labels for this since the 1980s, it almost always works if done properly, and has never damaged the instrument or compromised the eventual pro repair.
Then again, I've seen clarinets where someone has tried to bend the crows foot, and made the situation a LOT worse....
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2019-12-16 14:55
I always carry a few sticky labels and a pair of nail scissors in my bag for exactly this fix. I know that I can sort out any problems on my (or anybody elses') clarinet quickly at the gig and do a proper fix when I get home.
Tony F.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2019-12-16 17:19
While it's often an easy fix by doing a crafty bend while the owner is present, I don't show them what I do as I don't want them attempting it as things can go horribly wrong if they don't have the feel for things. And you only get the feel of things through experience.
I don't think some musical instrument repair courses even teach that and I've seen work done by newly qualified repairers where they use ridiculously thick corks and spend hours sanding them instead of bending things back to where they were and using better thickness silencing materials.
If someone is willing to learn and has the right aptitude and understanding, then I'll show them how and where to bend things - out of regulation flute footjoint keys are the other regulars that are resolved by some careful bending. But on the whole I prefer not to for risk of doing more harm than good.
The F/C touchpiece casting on clarinets is of such a design that lends itself well to being bent out of regulation as the arm that's soldered to the key barrel is thin to allow clearance where it runs over the Ab/Eb key barrel - it's the design that's the problem and that's compounded by using cast pieces which are often very soft.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-12-16 18:46
So what do you repair folks think of the Ring Height thing? By this I mean there are younger, smaller students that have "flush" rings and I find myself doing a five second fix rather than installing a thicker top cup pad (on the bottom joint for example).
Also have run into the reverse where a tech with slim fingers puts in a thicker pad and I find myself making the rings more flush for better finger seal.
No shims for this......... I suppose the lengthier repair process is best but I ALWAYS have to make some adjustments of this nature on a new horn for myself (along with spring tensions of course which are almost always too stiff on sliver keys and rings).
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2019-12-16 22:07
I will set up ring keys according to the player's hand size and finger width if need be. I generally set the ring keys to sit around 0.2mm above the chimneys as standard, but for players with narrower fingers and to ensure the pad closes, I can set them to around 0.5mm above the chimneys and sitting parallel with them instead of being higher or lower at one side.
Some repairers just bung in any old pad and don't give a second thought about how high, low or how even the ring keys sit relative to the tonehole chimneys. Very often they leave them far too high and the player ends up squeaking all the time as they're not able to close the chimneys.
I never set the larger diameter ring keys (LH2, LH3 if it has the forked Eb/Bb mechanism and the RH ring keys) absolutely flush with the tops of the chimneys as that can cause the pad not to close, but I do keep the LH1 ring key pretty much flush as that's a much smaller diameter ring key (as well as having the venting set as high as is possible for a clear open G which is often overlooked).
I was told by someone the lower edges of the ring keys should never go above the heights of the chimneys, but that's only going to cause poor venting of the ring key pad. The venting is far more important (who wants a stuffy, buzzy lower register C and E?) than what someone thinks doesn't look good and the thickness of ring keys is variable across all makes which invalidates their ideals.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2019-12-17 09:35
Pretty much the same as Chris. Set up ring height to what I like if there is no other option (owner can't test, clarinet that is being lent from a conservatorium, etc.). Adjust specifically to the player when they can check.
By far most don't have an issue with the height I use. A few players like the rings exactly flush or slightly higher than "normal". I've had a couple of players who needed a very exact height on a few specific keys.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2019-12-17 17:59
For players with loss of feeling in their fingertips (as a result of diabetes or other nerve damage) or with restricted finger movement, setting the ring keys a little higher than normal will help them locate the tonehole chimneys better as will adjusting (bending) touchpieces to allow their fingers to fall onto them more naturally instead of having to stretch.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2019-12-22 09:58
Hi Bill,
I will admit up front that I skimmed most of these responses so, if someone else has already mentioned the Ridenour video on this problem, I apologize.
To answer your original question, yes, there is a simple way of addressing one of the most common causes of your problem. Tom Ridenour explains it in a 10-minute video on YouTube titled, "clarivid 60 something to crow about."
The url is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh6Pg__DRUE
Tom gives step-by-step instructions for diagnosis and repair. In my experience with this situation, where the keys aren't far out of adjustment, his approach works quite well.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Bill
Date: 2019-12-22 23:02
Watched it. Perfect! Thank you!
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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