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Author: m1964
Date: 2019-06-21 18:23
Hi,
This is a question for the professional repair technicians.
1. I was fine-tuning my plastic Artley and needed to make right pinky G#/Eb stiffer. The needle springs on that clarinet are not made of blue steel and, on that key, it seemed to be somewhat thicker but less stiff than if it was blue steel spring.
What is a better way to bend the spring: right at the post or more towards the middle?
2. I recently bought a new Buffet and some keys felt much stiffer than on my 20 y. old R13, esp. the rt. pinky F#/C# key.
I removed everything to get access to that key, removed the key and at first thought I broke the spring off because there was no spring attached to the post.
Then I realized that the spring was attached to the key itself and not to the post (I was told later it is Buffet's design on all pro instruments).
I tried to make the tension lighter and ended up with somewhat "slowly" moving key.
Then I took the instrument to a tech who said it is sometimes difficult to get that particular key moving "right" and, if he cannot adjust the spring to get the right movement, he would drill a hole in the post and attach the spring to the post.
Anyway he did adjust it and it is definitely better than it was after my adjustment, but it still does not move as well/quickly/easy as the E/B key.
On my old r13 and my A clarinet (also buffet) this key (F#/C#) seems to move better.
Is it possible to make this key to move as good as the other three?
I do realize that other keys act in the opposite direction.
Thanks a lot
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2019-06-21 18:31
I bend away from the post because if it breaks there it can be a B**** to fix. But I am not a pro repair person and don't have the tools to fix that kind of problem.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-06-21 19:58
That one is tricky because you can easily lose the tension you just put into into it, getting the key back into position.
Firstly I WOULD bend fairly close to the post for the correct 'feel.' You may wind up putting it in and taking it out several times to get that right (while you have keys off, look at how the others down there are bent, that's usually a good start).
Then there is the whole, "How Tense Should it Be?" That key is tricky on this front. Ideally you want the stack of four pinky keys of similar feel BUT you want the "Ab/Eb" key to be perhaps just a little more than ideal. The reason is that particular key can achieve a bit of "blow openness" during play (believe it or not) that decreases resonance in a significant way.
Once you have just the right balance, you get it in by wiggling the key "closer than when on the rod" and ever so slightly pulling the spring over the notch under the key with a 1.4mm crochet hook....or equivalent. THEN slide the rod into place. That move is necessary for many clarinets.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2019-06-21 21:30
Paul, what's the advantage of one bend close to the post? I've seen it both ways--a single bend there and an attempt to form a smooth curve over the length of the spring--but the instruments I got recently mostly have the bends near the post.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-06-21 22:10
In my experience the "round bend" is more flacid, less quick in response. Of course I recommend looking at the other examples you have down there (hopefully they are correct). You don't want to bend AT the post and you don't want a sharp bend either (grab with the needle nose pliers slightly open). Mostly this stuff is trial and error until you get the result that you are looking for.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2019-06-21 23:38
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I ditch that F#/C# key spring completely and refit it in the pillar like any other normal needle spring.
That way a longer and heavier gauge needle spring can be used and balanced much better than that stupid way Buffet insist on springing it.
Descriptions of photos:
1. Drilling the 0.9mm/.035" hole in the pillar for the new spring
2. Grinding a recess for the spring in the anchor plate
3. Filing a flat on the underside of the F#/C# key rod for clearance
4. Spring in situ and F#/C# key fitted
5. Comparison between the original and new needle springs
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2019-06-21 23:50)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2019-06-21 23:42
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More photos of the process. Descriptions as follows:
1. Pillar end of spring slot trimmed to make it parallel right up to the pillar
2. Wood screw head filed flat so it sits low in the anchor plate
3. Spring mounting cut down to half the length
4. Spring mounting cut along its length to open it up to form it into a cradle
5. F#/C# key checked for fit and clearance before fitting new needle spring.
Photos aren't in sequential order - I do the conversion in this order:
- Remove existing needle spring from key
- Remove pillar, drill hole for the new spring and grind recess on the baseplate
- File the wood screw head flat and paper and polish it
- Cut the narrow end of the slot in the joint to make it parallel and refit pillar
- Cut the spring mounting to half its length and remove the piece nearest the pad cup
- Cut along the length of the spring mounting and open it up to form a cradle
- File the underside of the key rod to provide clearance for the needle spring
- Fit the new spring in the pillar, bend it to the required amount and refit key
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2019-06-22 00:04)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-06-22 01:03
I'm with you on that one! The Buffet configuration there makes no sense.
Although (not connected to that key at all) I want to say that the new leverage point and adjustment screw for the Left pinky Alternate F/C key is SOOOO great now! Just that slight change in how those keys hit each other (never mind the adjustment which is another level of cool) makes that a whole new world. I've actually changed up how I finger that sequence over it (scales G, C, F, Bb, and Eb I now use the Right B key and the Left C going up and down!).
COOL
Thanks for that Buffet.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2019-06-22 02:25
I don't agree with the placement of the new adjusting screw on the F/C key - it's located to make contact far too near the LH F/C key barrel and thus creates far more travel in the LH F/C touch than before or on a well set-up linkage (and that usually takes some doing on Buffets).
If it was fitted so the adjusting screw tip made contact near the end of the underlever, then the action would be much snappier. If the adjusting screw was angled inwards (towards the RH F/C key pillars), then that would work much better and keep the key travel down making the action more snappy.
And why I ignore it and fit the appropriate thickness rubco on the linkage in the old-fashioned way and the adjusting screw serves no real purpose. Like a lot of things, it's a good idea, but not well executed as they've only made an already bad scenario worse.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-06-22 04:15
Well I guess we can agree to disagree. To me it feels just right. I found a similar feel in the Boosey 1010.......probably the only thing I liked about the 1010.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2019-06-22 13:32
Howarth fitted the adjusting screw to the LH F/C lever foot on their later S2 and S3 clarinets which made the action much easier to adjust and retain decent leverage.
They also fitted the F#/C# spring in the Buffet manner, but the lower pillar had a wide flanged base with a slot cut into it for the needle spring to sit in and created a better surface for the spring tip than having it digging into the wood as you have on Buffets.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2019-06-22 17:19
Very carefully and have a band-aid handy. :-). Just a very little clarinet humor. But for me, it was always true.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2019-06-22 20:12
For what it's worth, J. Seggelke does the LH F/C adjustment screw exactly as Chris suggests, and it works quite well. The spring for the F#/C# is attached to the post, but the one for E/B is attached to the key, has an S bend, and contacts the post at a hole in a second bulb in the post, between the one with the rod and the bottom of the post. Not sure why he did that, but it seems to work fine.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2019-06-23 01:44
There's one thing worse than being stabbed by a needle spring - that's being stabbed by two opposing needle springs in quick succession.
Even worse still is if they're in close proximity and you end up impaled on both of them at the same tile.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2019-06-23 09:12
>> Then I took the instrument to a tech who said it is sometimes difficult to get that particular key moving "right" and, if he cannot adjust the spring to get the right movement, he would drill a hole in the post and attach the spring to the post.
Anyway he did adjust it and it is definitely better than it was after my adjustment, but it still does not move as well/quickly/easy as the E/B key. <<
Yes, as others mentioned that key has a pretty short spring so it doesn't have the feel of some of the other keys and can't be made to feel as good without that modification.
>> On my old r13 and my A clarinet (also buffet) this key (F#/C#) seems to move better. <<
Assuming they are new enough to have this spring mount (on the key itself), the spring might be a slightly different material/length/diameter so it feels better. The weight and weight distribution of the key can also make a difference and that is often impossible or at least unrealistic to change significantly.
>> I don't agree with the placement of the new adjusting screw on the F/C key - it's located to make contact far too near the LH F/C key barrel and thus creates far more travel in the LH F/C touch than before or on a well set-up linkage (and that usually takes some doing on Buffets). <<
Agree, but the exact position is a bit inconsistent. Maybe their jig is not very accurate, or whoever is soldering them doesn't always position them the same. I've seen the distance and angle vary on new clarinets. I remember one in particular where it was impossible to have good venting, no play on right or left keys, but also not have the corner of the left side lever hit the F/C key in the closed position (it had to be modified).
Though since they added the adjusting screw (which is a nice feature) the variation is such that the best ones still have the left side lever moving too much.
Re the comparison with the 1010 mentioned, I've recently seen one and have an Eaton which is similar. The feel is pretty close, but the amount of travel is different.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2019-06-23 20:06
On the very few occasions I've had to drill a new hole in a post I've drilled it slightly off line to the rod or hinge tube so that the spring has a slight angle to the hinge, so that it can be sprung back against the spring notch. This obviates the need for bending the spring.
Tony F.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2019-06-23 21:15
Tony F wrote:
> On the very few occasions I've had to drill a new hole in a
> post I've drilled it slightly off line to the rod or hinge tube
Tony, I've sat and watched a lot of the work that repairmen have done on my instruments, but have never seen them drilling holes in posts, so a naive question: how do you drill into a round post off-center without having the drill bit constantly rolling off the side around the post's curvature? I assume the post has to be jigged or clamped to hold it still. Will a drill press control the bit well enough to keep it aimed straight in? I have visions of a bit that thin actually bending around the post's slope.
How large a hole do you need to drill to fit a needle spring? Some of the ones I have on hand are very fine-gauged.
Sounds nit-picky, but I've never had an opportunity to actually watch this.
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2019-06-24 10:36
Needle springs on oboes and clarinets are usually from between 0.3mm to 1.0mm thick, so the appropriate diameter drill bit is used for each size spring.
I put a nick in the pillar with a saw or file where I want to start drilling it, then centre punch the nick where you want to start drilling the spring hole from. Then add a drop of cutting fluid and carefully drill through the pillar.
Expect to break some drill bits in the process if you're new to it and make sure your drill bits are sharp - the smallest diameter ones are typically far more prone to breaking. Don't expect to drill through in one go - back the pillar off a bit from the drill, then resume drilling (with the drill still spinning the whole time) almost in a pulsing or reciprocating motion with enough pressure to cut into the pillar but not too much that will bow or break the drill.
It's my least favourite thing to do.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2019-06-25 20:35
A small correction, in case someone is going to look for it, it is a center drill in Steve's photo, not a countersink.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2019-06-26 00:51
Thanks for the correction. I forgot the name and when I looked at my catalog it was called a combined drill and countersink. I just rechecked, and in smaller print it says center drill.
Steve Ocone
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Author: m1964
Date: 2019-06-26 05:14
Thanks a lot to everyone who replied to my original post.
Special thanks to Paul Aviles and Chris P.: I really appreciate your willingness to help and share your experience.
To Chris: your modification of the F#/C# key spring is not a modification.
While it seems "simple" looking at the pictures, it is definitely not easy at all to perform such modification. To me, it looks like the art of instrument repair.
If I played professionally I would have it done on my new Buffet, but since I am not a pro, the current set-up will do (also it seems that we are just a little too far away).
To Paul: I think "we can agree to disagree" because I am with Chris P. on the placement of adjusting screw on the left F/C key: the key travel is too long, and, while it is very easy to press the key, the pressure is unbalanced in relation to the other three keys because they require more pressure.
My work-around is that I try to press the left F/C key closer to the axis which requires less finger travel but slightly more pressure.
Chris, you mentioned that you place "rabco" on the F/C linkage.
What is it? I googled but did not find anything...
Thanks a lot.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2019-06-26 08:01
>> Chris, you mentioned that you place "rabco" on the F/C linkage.
What is it? I googled but did not find anything... <<
Rubco, not rabco. It's short for rubber cork (I think rubco is the Yamaha name for it). It's also called rubber cork by some suppliers and tech cork. It's a mix of cork and rubber that is firmer than regular cork. You can get it from instrument repair suppliers like Music Medic, J.L. Smith, and some others.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2019-06-26 08:07
>> I just rechecked, and in smaller print it says center drill. <<
Its main purpose is to start a hole on center, which is why it is made thicker and more rigid almost to the end (compared with a regular drill which can wander) and also to create a 60 degree hole (using the tapered part) for a center in a lathe quill.
I use these almost only on the lathe. To start holes when free hand drilling them, I use a small bit on a dental micromotor (and usually drill with the micromotor too).
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2019-06-26 10:57
Rubco is also called tech cork, Gummi-Kork and Yamaha call it 'Hycotex' - it's essentially gasket cork and very high density compared to other cork composites (the cork equivalent of chipboard like the stuff used for noticeboards and place mats) that Mauriat and other makers use which crumble like anything, therefore having no place on woodwind instruments.
A simple countersink can be made from a piece of mild steel - an old rod screw will do for this. File a 90° taper on one end, then file a flat to half the thickness of the rod, then harden and temper it to form a countersink that can be used for loads of purposes. I mainly use it to mark the centre when drilling the ends of pinned or floating steels on oboes prior to countersinking them to fit them between point screws, but the same countersink can be used to countersink the screw holes before tapping them in pinned key barrels, countersink the holes prior to drilling thumbrest screws and loads of other applications.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2019-06-26 17:54
Chris P wrote:
> Rubco is also called tech cork...- it's essentially gasket cork and very high density
Chris,
Thanks a lot.
Any tips on how to make the bridge between the joints more "compliant"?
The new Buffet is even worse than the old one- if the bridge is not aligned perfectly either the small pad below D/A hole on the uppper joint does not close completely or the pad above Bb/F on the lower joint does not close.
I tried to bend the bridge on the upper joint clockwise if looking at the bottom of the joint and it seemed to get slightly better.
Since it is a new clarinet and I am not a professional tech, I was afraid to bend more. I was not 100% sure if it was the best way to align (if it is possible at all to have the joint stay aligned vertically regardless of rotation).
Another "challenge" for Buffet- to make the bridge connection slightly round so it would connect lower and upper joints perfectly regardless of rotation 😫.
Thank you.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-06-26 19:43
There are a number of ways to look at the bridge key. I do appreciate being able to adjust how the pads hit based on a slight difference in alignment. That said, I have mine adjusted so that I get the best seal between both the upper and lower joint pads with the bridge aligned dead center. I am using the Quartz Resonance pads (the have no practical compliance) on ALL keys so it goes without saying that I check this EVERY TIME I put the horn together.
One way to make the bridge junction less "hair trigger," would be to use a softer, less demanding pad on one of these keys (either the top pad of the lower joint OR the cup between the left hand first and second fingers). When Brannen did a full cork for the top joint, he made sure to use a felt pad with triple fish skin on the top of the bottom joint (even thought the sliver key was fitted with cork....same size).
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: m1964
Date: 2019-06-27 05:24
Paul,
Thanks for the tip.
I do not want to start re-padding a new clarinet, because if I align it properly I get the proper seal.
But if it is off even by 2mm then it is not.
I did get a little wiggly room after I bent the upper part of the bridge so now the bridge can be slightly off (about 1mm) and still be OK.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2019-06-27 11:02
If you want the bridge key more compliant when using firm pads, you can use a soft material on the bridge key linkage such as Ultrasuede or felt as that will have some give in it as well as also keeping mechanical noise down.
That way you still have some rotational leeway when the joints are assembled and don't have to line up to within fractions of a degree to each other and the long Bb is in regulation compared to using materials with hardly any give everywhere.
In a perfect textbook world, that would be fine, but you still have to take into account things aren't textbook perfect as there are the properties of all the materials to take into account which diagrams don't show. They will show how things work in relation to each other, but not how the materials themselves behave when it comes to properties like torsion and compression.
I hardly use natural cork for the keywork and linkages on clarinets except for the throat A stopper cork. I use rubco mainly closed-standing keys and linkages and Ultrasuede and felt for open standing keys and the crow's foot to keep mechanical noise to a minimum.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2019-06-27 13:13
kdk,
I haven't been able to get online for a few days, and I find that others have answered your question quite adequately. Like Chris, it's probably the job I like least. With regard to holding the post securely, I screw it into a piece of hard rubber bar from my junk box and clamp the bar securely in place. Then I file a v-notch where I plan to drill and then drill very carefully with a small drill press using kerosene as a lubricant.
Tony F.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2019-07-02 03:24
Tony F wrote:
> kdk,
> I haven't been able to get online for a few days, and I find
> that others have answered your question quite adequately. Like
> Chris, it's probably the job I like least. With regard to
> holding the post securely, I screw it into a piece of hard
> rubber bar from my junk box and clamp the bar securely in
> place. Then I file a v-notch where I plan to drill and then
> drill very carefully with a small drill press using kerosene as
> a lubricant.
>
Tony,
Thanks for your reply. At least I know that if I ever get tired of somewhat slow F#/C# key someone can fix it.
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