 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2016-10-24 02:25
I have read that you are supposed set the rings higher for people with smaller hands, so that it is easier for them to push the rings down with their fingers.
Is this true? I was playing on a horn with higher rings than I was used to and it was a pain. It was hard to seal the holes, and I had to flatten my fingers way out. It might be easier for a very small hand, and I'm sure a student could get used to it, but I don't think that straight fingers are the best way to play. I have never heard of anyone covering the open holes easily, but not pressing the rings down enough. However, I don't teach...
Is it possible that the idea about raising the rings came about because the associated pads leaked - and they needed to mash them down hard to get them to seal?
Thanks.
- Matthew Simington
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-10-24 02:47
You shouldn't ever have to be pushing the ring keys down - they should fall closed under normal finger movement and without any undue force.
I've seen my fair share of Buffets where the ring key heights haven't been adjusted when the pad has been replaced with a much thicker one. Some repairers overlook the fact that ring keys shouldn't be ridiculously high when they're in the closed position (and the venting is usually compromised too).
If the pad is seating well, the ring keys can be closed with light finger pressure and the pad will seal against its tonehole with no problems. If the pad is too thick, then it will most likely leak at the front as well as leaving the ring keys sitting too high and forcing the player to use undue finger pressure to close the pad.
The main problem with ring keys being too high is they can prevent the fingertips from sealing against the tonehole chimneys and render a clarinet impossible to play at worst or making it squeak at best.
I set ring keys so they're around 0.2mm minimum to 0.5mm maximum above the chimneys when in the closed position which should suit most players. But should anyone want them lower than that (if they have fat fingertips) then they can be lowered. If I'm repadding a clarinet I will ask the player how they want the ring key heights set to suit them best. But if I haven't got much to go on, then I set them up how I feel is best to suit anyone.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-10-24 03:01
Matt74 wrote:
> I have read that you are supposed set the rings higher for
> people with smaller hands, so that it is easier for them to
> push the rings down with their fingers.
>
> Is this true?
That's a technique that repair techs sometimes use in some circumstances. But how high? And how small are the fingers that need this help?
I don't think it's so much "set[ting] the rings higher" as setting the pad above the RH index finger to close sooner, which wouldn't allow the rings to go down as far. But ring height is a personal thing and different players feel more comfortable with the rings at slightly different heights. The important thing is that the top pad must close at the same time as the RH fingers close the open tone holes. The bridge between the top and bottom sections also needs to be adjusted to allow the right amount of movement for the pad and fingers to close together.
So, if the rings on the instrument you played weren't at a height that you found comfortable (you had to flatten your fingers to get the pad on top to close), then they weren't the right height for you, regardless of hand or, more accurately, finger size.
> I have never heard of anyone covering the open holes easily,
I'm not sure, parenthetically, what you mean here. I don't know anyone with an established basic technique who *does* have trouble covering open holes. I do have one young student who started over the summer who is having some trouble with it, but her fingers will grow and the problem will go away. Maybe you meant something else?
Karl
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2016-10-24 03:05
Some young players, especially female, have very thin fingers and in this case it is often needed to set the rings marginally higher than for a mature hand.
You work with the player to find what suits them best.
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2016-10-24 09:30
I know for a fact that one of the principal clarinet players in one of the major USA orchestras who has small fingers likes the rings a little higher than normal.
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2016-10-24 09:47
Karl, What I meant was that I have heard people complain about not getting their fingers to cover the holes, but I have never heard anyone complain about not getting the rings to go all the way down.
Chris, Thanks for the measurements, that helps. The difficult to play horn in question is 1mm. The pad looks pretty good, but I can probably go smaller, or lower the rings. I was afraid if I lowered the rings to suit me, some poor kid wouldn't be able to play it. I am running into odd things on student horns, and then wonder if they are supposed to be that way.
Norman, Thanks. That's helpful.
- Matthew Simington
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-10-24 14:38
Not only should the rings be set at the required height for the player, but they should also be set so they're at the same eight all around instead of high at the front and low at the back (nearest the key rod).
This is achievable most well built clarinets, but some may be more difficult to get the ring keys so they sit evenly all the way round if the ring key arms are thick and won't bend easily.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2017-10-25 05:41
I have a clarinet here where the rings bottom out just about the same time as the pad seats. In the past i have always just held the pad down and pulled up on the ring. This clarinet has very strong network and they won't budge. Is there a tool they gives some mechanical advantage without risking to behold damage? My sax key levers just don't fit.
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2017-10-25 08:57
I know one of the best players in the world currently who has the ring keys set real high on purpose and uses pressure to bend notes and control pitch.
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2017-10-25 09:48
Shumelyosef: I use my Knipex parallel pliers, and bend where the ring meets the ring arm.. I hold the near and far parts of the ring, with the handle in line with the arm. This seems to keep the rings themselves from bending. I have a large pair of heavy mechanic’s pliers with the jaws ground down and polished smooth, so they have an 1/8 or 1/4” gap when closed, with a piece of leather attached to one jaw, that I can use to hold the arms/rod part if I need. (Be careful not to grab the spring barrel hook, or it will break off - not that I’ve done that...)
My vise is in storage, but I thought that with jaw pads you could put all three rings in the vise and bend from the arms by hand, so they bend evenly at the same time. Pliers might be easier.
I LOVE Knipex parallel pliers. I have an SW27 / 1” and a SW23 / 7/8”. Worth every penny.
- Matthew Simington
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-10-25 16:59
Chris P wrote:
> I set ring keys so they're around 0.2mm minimum to 0.5mm
> maximum above the chimneys when in the closed position which
> should suit most players.
Chris, what do you use to measure this? I assume you do enough work on this that you probably just eyeball it and feel with your fingers, but you must have at some point actually measured it to be able to give these numbers. I ask because I currently have a young student with small hands and fingers (she's in fifth grade - probably 10 years old) who has since she started playing clarinet had some difficulty in completely covering the RH tone holes. She has lately continued to have *intermittent* squeaking problems. When I tried her clarinet recently, I immediately felt that the rings were a little high for my comfort, but I don't squeak because my fingers are bigger and stronger and I have 50 years of experience over hers.
As to lowering them, I've sometimes in the past wedged a pad slick under the pad and pressed down on the rings. I don't know if this bends the rings downward or the pad cup upward. Is that a reasonable way to do this adjustment?
Karl
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2017-10-25 17:54
As Chris has pointed out, if the pad is properly installed then the rings can be set fairly low. If the pad is mushy or not level a higher ring height can compensate, but it is not an ideal situation.
The pad on the three ring key is very often poorly installed and doesn't seal properly. This is a common source of resistance when trying to play middle B and C. In fact, When a clarinet seals but doesn't play well, I examine the ring heights and the corresponding pads. I often replace pads I thought were fine (checking the tone hole for problems at the same time).
Softer synthetic pads are problematic on these keys and I don't install them there. They are often used because less care is needed to install them, but they need to be pressed firmly to seal. If you lightly close a key and then are able to press further and feel mushiness as you continue then you probably have one or more of three situations. A synthetic pad, a poorly installed skin pad. or lots of play in the mechanism.
This post got longer and longer as more situations came to mind. Sorry.
One more note. Different makers may need different ring heights for the same feel.
Steve Ocone
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2017-10-25 18:16
>> but you must have at some point actually measured it to be able to give these numbers. <<
It's pretty easy to get a rough measurement with calipers since it's very low tolerance (just pressing the key with a little more or less force would change it). If you measure stuff all the time you can eyeball other things anyway so no need to necessarily measure the rings heights themselves to eyeball it.
>> Is that a reasonable way to do this adjustment? <<
Yes, as long as whatever you put between the pad and tone hole doesn't damage either of them. Although unlikely, this can change the bridge adjustment so need to check after.
Re the ring height being the same all around (i.e. parallel when pressed), the finger isn't really symmetrical from the center of where it presses the key/hole, so the ring doesn't necessarily need to be either.
Generally I go by feel, which ends up slightly higher than the chimney, leaning towards a bit higher for young kids. At least 90% of the time this is good. Other times I check with the player to see what works best for them and it's pretty rare that someone needs a very specific height but it happens.
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2017-10-25 20:39
Based on doing my own repair work, changing ring height, because the rings work pads, can affect timbre and tuning of some notes, often in unfavorable ways.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-10-25 21:42
dorjepismo wrote:
> Based on doing my own repair work, changing ring height,
> because the rings work pads, can affect timbre and tuning of
> some notes, often in unfavorable ways.
In general I'm sure that's right, but my student only wants to stop squeaking.
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-10-26 02:37
You can adjust the ring key heights (relative to the chimney tops) without altering the venting.
If you are wanting to lower the ring key heights, don't use a pad iron and apply pressure to the pad as that can compress it and cause a leak. I use a flattened metal rod placed between the pad cup arm and the joint surface to do that, or between the ring key arm and the joint surface to make the rings sit evenly in relation to the chimneys (instead of being high or low at one side). The flattend metal rod can be covered with thin card to prevent it marking the wood or the underside of the key arm. You can use a ad iron placed between the front of the ring key and the chimney to raise the fronts if they're too low.
I aim to make things as concentric as is possible (but not always with some instruments) and so the ring keys are at an even height all the way around the circumference of the chimney no matter how low or high they're set (according to the players hand and finger size).
I generally set thumb rings pretty much flush with the thumb tube as thumbs are usually wide, plus it makes it more comfortable when using the speaker key. This also depends on the cross section of the thumb ring - some are evenly radiused on top (eg. Selmer and Yamaha), some are radiused on the outer edge (eg. B&H and Buffet) and have a sharp inner edge and some are concave (eg. Buffet DG Prestige), so the cross sectional shape also dictates to how high or low they chould be set according to the player's hands/fingers.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2017-10-26 03:09
Chris,
When you raise them with a pad iron, do you hold the key pad and lift the ring by levering against the body, or do you place the iron and press on the pad key?
jeff
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-10-26 17:49
Jeff - I usually place the pad iron between the tonehole chimney and the ring key, then push own on the pad cup arm (not the pad cup as that can bend). Use a pad iron or bassoon reed plaque that is well polished and has smooth edges as that won't mark the chimney nor the ring key.
I do this to both raise the ring keys and also to get them all level - although you may find you want the RH3 ring key to be slightly higher if players with small hands/narrow fingers use RH3 on its own for a clearer B/F# (xxx|oox).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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