 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2010-06-04 02:52
When going from 4th line D up to 4th space E, and without changing my embouchure one bit, I get a drop of 10 to 12 cents. I have done this many times to make sure that I am changing nothing about my emb.
Is this normal for most clarinets, or do the pro clarinets mostly have better intonation between these 2 notes?
I can make the E play in tune by "lipping up" as you all say (or as some might say, ever-so-slightly biting...perish the thought).
Selmer Signet Special
VD M-13L mp
VD # 3 reed
CarlT
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-06-04 03:31
Do a search for 13 series mouthpieces and intonation and you'll find lots of information about mouthpiece tuning issues.
In general, the E should be a more stable and in tune note than the D, which is prone to being sharp. Make sure you check the overall scale (not just the two notes)
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2010-06-04 03:46
Your mouthpiece is just fine. It most likely is your clarinet.
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Author: donald
Date: 2010-06-04 06:14
The E and F tend to be flatter than the D and C below them, but this can be exaggerated if the pads above the F/C and E/B holes are too high. Obviously, if you lower the pads too much they will make the G/D fuzzy in tone quality, but if set too open the D will be sharper than need be.
I have actually played clarinets where this problem was not an issue and the lower joint upper register had good intonation, but then found this was at the expense of the lower register tuning (with r/hand B/A being very sharp).
dn
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2010-06-04 12:29
You've only mentioned the two notes - D and E. What happens on the notes above E as you go farther up the scale? How do B and C below the D tune?
Karl
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2010-06-04 13:04
Also, how do the 12ths below them (chalumeau G and A) tune?
![[G3]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/g3.gif) ![[A3]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/a3.gif)
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
Post Edited (2010-06-04 13:06)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-06-04 14:35
JJA -
How did you insert the note graphics? Inquiring minds want to do it too.
Thanks.
Ken Shaw
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2010-06-04 15:15
Ken, look at the top of the thread. The notes are in the link where you paste the smileys.
You can also do it directly: for example, to show the g, you would type {G3}, but use square brackets around the letter.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
Post Edited (2010-06-04 18:06)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-06-04 15:31
No, this is not a common problem on most clarinets. Jeff asked the same question I was going to ask, is the 12th below the same problem? If it is than the E - lower A hole is to low resulting in both of those notes being flat. Someone else may have a better suggestion but it seems to me that if that's the case you will need to have the hole directly below the E -A undercut to make the hole closer to the mouthpiece. The only problem with that is it will also effect the C# above the staff since the air comes out of the same tone hole as the E -A. It might make that C# higher. I'm assuming the rest of the scale, from the C below to the G is not a problem. Of course if the 12th below is good there might not be a good solution. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: BobD
Date: 2010-06-04 22:06
I've never gone to the trouble to actually make such measurements in a situation such as you mention. IF there was such a problem in my setup I'm sure I lipped it and never gave it another thought. As I recall, Carl, you've had embouchure problems from day one and I'm guessing that ....unconsciously.....you're not tightening your embouchure enough as you go up the scale. If you're double lipping sometimes going to single lip with the higher notes helps. I think that starting to alter holes etc etc can get tricky. I'm certainly no expert on the subject, tho.
Bob Draznik
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2010-06-05 01:37
Hi all, and thanks to all above for your advice.
GDK, Using 4th line D as a reference, E is flattest, F is flat but not too bad, G is right on the money, and A, B, and C are actually just a bit sharp. Again, I have done this numerous times always trying to maintain a steady embouchure.
Jeff and Ed, the 12ths below are NOT different with respect to the tuner...no noticeable variation at all (I played these a bunch of times, too).
Bob, here's the deal on my being so picky and possibly talking about nothing of consequence in the real world:
My teacher has been working with me for weeks now trying to get a better sound from me, and just this past week I was able to actually please him (a better reed did help, but hard work was the real deal for me I believe).
At any rate, he is now teaching me that there are variations in certain notes on the instrument, and that I should, again, as some of you say, learn to lip up/down as the case may be. I only offered the original example (D and E) as examples because those 2 notes seem to offer the largest difference between adjacent intervals that I could find in the lower 2 registers (not yet trying the altissimo register, at least for this thpe of thing), so I wondered if that was just a fluke with my particular set-up, or were these 2 notes typical for being so far apart in variation on the tuner.
I am certainly not that "sophisticated" yet to worry about such things, other than just to be educated that they exist and possibly how to correct them.
I thank all of you for your kind advice. A few weeks back I was about ready to give up on the clarinet, but since finding this teacher, I am, once again, very gung ho and practice diligently.
Your BB has really helped me...probably as much as a private teacher in many respects, for I get different opinions that I can try...some work, and some don't.
CarlT
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2010-06-05 01:42
>>>Jeff and Ed, the 12ths below are NOT different with respect to the tuner...no noticeable variation at all (I played these a bunch of times, too).
If this means (as I believe you are saying) that you are having the same issue in the Chalameau, it might actually be a tonehole issue.
Jeff
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2010-06-05 02:26
Jeff, my fault for not making it clear.
What I meant to convey was that I can play the low G and the low A "in tune" with the tuner with no change in embouchure pressure, etc. There is NOT the difference in those 2 notes that there is in the higher 12ths. The tuner needle does not vary for low G and low A.
Thanks for your patience with my descriptions.
CarlT
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2010-06-07 15:33
Clarinets are strange critters, and the register key system is more compromised than other instruments that swap register vents depending upon how many fingers are down when the reg key is opened.
The interplay between mouthpiece (volume, bore, length and baffle shape); the barrel (helping the mouthpiece convert reed flapping into air column compression); and the register vent (distance down the bore, size, depth, pad opening) is very complex.
Changing mouthpieces and tuning barrels will probably change your particular instrument's weirdness --but you seem to be able to deal with your current set-up's eccentricities. I'd just go ahead and live with what you know.
You might learn something by wrapping the register key's touch piece in masking tape to reduce the pad's opening distance and checking your clarion register's intonation. If a smaller opening helps, you can then bend tie key or thicken the stop cork to make the adjustment permanent.
If you get an chance, and have the curiosity, try different mouthpieces and barrels --with your tuner watching over your tests.
Bob Phillips
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2010-06-07 18:49
Thanks, Bob, I will try to do that sometime soon. I do have a couple more mps that I can do that with, and what you are saying makes a lot of sense to me.
The widest variation on the tuner with what I am currently playing occurs with the 4th line D, which is spot on with the tuner, and the 4th space E, which is always flat by 10-12 cents, so I will see if it also happens with another mp.
Again, it's NOT that big of a deal for me, because I can compensate, but I was wondering if that is just my clarinet and/or setup, or is that E always a bit flat compared to the D?
CarlT
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Author: ddavani
Date: 2010-06-08 03:00
This might not be the case for the situation, it may be the clarinet. Though, this is a common misconception that intonation has to do with the setup, and that does play a large role in that, though there is also a lot of interior body function that has to do with the sound an pitch of the clarinet.
People sometimes tend to tighten their throat without realizing it in that register (I know I used to, though I remedied the problem). What needs to happen is a direct flow of air, from the stomach to the horn and the resistance of that area on the clarinet, especially a Selmer is very high.
To avoid having this happen, you should try opening up and singing a few open notes while monitoring the air flow in your body, apply that to clarinet. Not only will the pitch of those notes go up, but the sound will be more focused which is in the end what you are looking for.
-Dave Davani
http://allclarinet.blogspot.com/
Post Edited (2010-06-08 03:09)
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