 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: seafaris
Date: 2008-08-04 16:08
Out of curiosity how many of you had marching band every year in high school? We have a grandson in high school who is first chair in Trombone in the school orchestra, and also plays in the marching band. He wants to get a scholarship in music at UCO, and I was just wondering whether or not he should spend more time practicing, playing in the orchestra and other bands since the marching band takes so much of his time. Or... is marching band that necessary to help with a scholarship possibility?
Thanks!
Jim
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-08-04 16:51
I played in the marching band every year in high school. I wouldn't say that marching band is necessary for obtaining a music scholarship, but I found it to be a lot of fun. I think I would have been upset if a parent or grandparent tried to talk me out of playing in the marching band. On the other hand, if he doesn't like marching band, no one should force him to stay in (although at my HS, to be in the band at all you had to do both marching band and concert band--we just did them at different times of the year).
I will say this about my experience--I don't believe marching band negatively impacted my HS musical career in the least. If anything, it helped in my case, since I generally used the 30 mins. break between band class (last class of the day) and marching practice to practice etudes and solos. I made Texas All-State as a freshman in HS (while marching band was going on) and judging from the feedback I received from university clarinet professors when I was in HS, had I decided to major in music, at the very least I would have had a good shot at a music scholarship.
One thing about trombone, though, is that in an orchestra, the trombone has somewhat less of a role to play than in a band. Trombones are a more recent addition to the symphony orchestra and so many orchestral scores from the 19th century and before (e.g., Beethoven's 5th Symphony) don't even include trombones. On the other hand, you'd be hard pressed to find a work for band that didn't have important trombone parts. So, in any event, I don't think I'd abandon band altogether in favor of orchestra if I played trombone.
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Author: seafaris
Date: 2008-08-04 17:46
Thanks for the response. He does really like marching band. I just feel that if that time was applied to lessons, practicing and playing in other groups he would have a better chance in college. This is mostly for my piece of mind he will do what he wants of course. I know there some students here and would like their input also.
Thanks!
...Jim
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Author: clarionman
Date: 2008-08-04 17:54
I was in marching band all three years of high school. I don't think marching band is necessary to get a music scholarship put as mrn said is a lot of fun. We get to travel to other high school and compete in field show competitions and compare how good your band is compare to other schools in your division. It was just a blast when I was in marching band. I glad that we only did field shows and not parades because parades are just the worst.
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Author: crnichols
Date: 2008-08-04 19:04
I hate marching band...but it's a big part of my job. I like playing and teaching the clarinet for a living, and there's plenty of other things I have the opportunity to do. It balances out for me. Also, from an audience standpoint, you'll play for more people in a marching band than you'll ever see fit into a concert hall. Anyone that's done a parade for Mardi Gras in New Orleans knows what I'm talking about. You can't fit a couple hundred thousand people in concert hall.
Christopher Nichols, D.M.A.
Assistant Professor of Clarinet
University of Delaware
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Author: clarinets1
Date: 2008-08-04 20:23
you know, i never really disliked marching band in high school. sure, i probably would have chosen to do something else if i could have, but i really did have a good time while i was there. i gained some valuable leadership skills as the tenor sax section leader and developed some great friendships. and we got to go on some pretty cool trips (i never would have experienced Disneyworld if i hadn't been in the marching band)
maybe i've just been out of school too long, but i don't remember that it took any more of my time than anything else i could have been doing. i was still playing my instrument, which is all i wanted to do anyway. and it didn't stop me from earning chairs in the All-State band.
just my two cents...
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2008-08-04 21:06
Marching band was great fun for 4 years in high school, and I still keep in touch with people from then. It was more a social activity than a musical one. At the time, that's probably more what I needed.
I was bummed out that my college didn't have a marching band (on account of no football team). That lasted for about half a year... since then I've considered marching band something that was fun at the time and that I'd never want to do again, and was thankful that it wasn't an option.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2008-08-04 21:25
Some colleges actually require active participation in the marching band from their music students. Rare, but noot unheard of. Also, there may be a scholarship available for a student in the marching band.
On the other hand, I found nothing musical about the time I was in marching band. The music was flatly unchallenging, and I was one of the few who actually tried to march with the precision our director wanted. It was more a social thing for most kids in the group, plus there was mno real process such as an audition to determine who got in. If you were in the instrumental band program, you were in marching band in the fall. No choice in the matter at all. And you had to be in marching band for credit toward departmental awards based on years of service, for what that was worth.
If nothing else, it was an experience to go and watch our football team get trounced on a weekly basis. That and the scandal when the one of the drum majors got kicked out for being intoxicated on the field during a performance at an away game. Not a pretty sight. ![[frown]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie2.gif)
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-08-04 22:09
mrn wrote: "so many orchestral scores from the 19th century and before (e.g., Beethoven's 5th Symphony) don't even include trombones"
Someone should let Beethoven know this. His score shows quite clearly that he wanted trombones used in the finale. See, for example, http://www.trombone-society.org.uk/resources/articles/parsons.php
In reality, the trombone was a normal member of the orchestra from the early nineteenth century. In the eighteenth century it was an "extra" instrument used as a special effect, most famously in Don Giovanni.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-08-04 22:46
NorbertTheParrot wrote:
> Someone should let Beethoven know this. His score shows quite
> clearly that he wanted trombones used in the finale. See, for
> example,
> http://www.trombone-society.org.uk/resources/articles/parsons.php
You're right. As the article you cited points out, the trombone made its "symphonic debut" in Beethoven's 5th.
Somehow I thought Beethoven's 5th had something to do with trombones or the absence thereof--I guess I should have flipped to the Finale in my "Norton Scores" book instead of Mvt. 1. Then I would have gotten it straight. Oh well, so much for trying to look things up.
Even in the 5th Symphony, though, the trombones have to sit out for 3 out of the 4 movements, which is something not likely to happen in a band setting, but not all that uncommon a thing to see in orchestral brass parts of a certain vintage.
What I remember learning was that trombones are actually a very ancient instrument, but that they were primarily used in the church and were not commonplace in orchestras until sometime during the 19th century.
Post Edited (2008-08-04 22:57)
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Author: renee
Date: 2008-08-05 03:31
I quit marching band. I hated it.
But I stil got very very very good schlorships.
The clarinet teachers I auditioned for were actually very happy to hear that I did not waste my time standing on a football field.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2008-08-05 03:33
I was in marching band my 3 years of high school. As a couple of others have noted marching band is a social activity, not a musical one. At our school, it was also great exercise so IMO it should have qualified as phys. ed. It never would have occurred to me not to be in marching band. It was THE social activity at my high school. And it was fun. (I have heard of band directors who require students to be in marching band if they want to be in concert band. I don't agree with that practice but, in my case, it was just the opposite. In retrospect, I really think I tolerated concert band so that I could be in the marching band. It helped a great deal that I had a truly remarkable band director.)
Playing in marching band will rarely, if ever, help in any direct way toward winning a music scholarship. It doesn't, as a rule, develop any musical skills. But it can teach leadership qualities, discipline, self-confidence and an appreciation of teamwork. These are all useful traits. Also, having it on his resume may, help your grandson earn at least a small marching band scholarship at some universities, if he chooses to continue the activity.
But consider this. If your grandson enjoys marching band, he might find, at his age, that giving it up takes a great deal of the joy out of his instrument. That could, in turn, eventually lead to his giving up the instrument prematurely. Also I wouldn't automatically assume that, if he wasn't going to marching band, he would be spending the time it freed up practicing scales and exercises. If dropping marching band changed his peer group, other activities (hanging out at the mall, movies, video games, clog dancing, or even Pool (with a capital P) e.g.) might fill the void. So while I doubt being in marching band will help him with a music scholarship, I doubt it will hinder him in and significant way, either. If he's serious about the instrument, he will find time to practice.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2008-08-05 12:53
So your grandson isn't taking private lessons? (I don't know if I read or inferred that correctly.) Marching or not, private lessons are crucial if he's to stand a good chance at a music scholarship.
Marching with a clarinet....I'd rather eat brussel sprouts and prunes everyday. I loved marching band but wised up and did colorguard in high school and was drum major in college. Unless a band has a sea of clarinets on the field, you just can't hear them. Not to mention that marching does the clarinet embouchure no favors.
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Author: Alfred
Date: 2008-08-05 18:07
From a current high school band student, marching band seems to be a lot of fun, but I don't think it's necessary for a musical future. I'm planning on majoring in performance/composition, and I've only ever been to marching band camp. I never even set foot on the football field with my clarinet. Marching band isn't my forte (no pun intended) because, in the case of the clarinet, you can't be heard.
It certainly won't hurt your chances, but just because you marched does not mean that someone who hasn't marched is not more deserving. You could have marched all four years, but be terrible, and then someone who's never marched can be phenomenal, and beat you out for the scholarship.
If anything, auditioning for Honor Bands/Orchestras, and competing in solo competitions can help far more than marching band can.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-08-05 18:54
Ok - someone has to say it:
Marching band is NOT part of a music education. It is a great after-school activity for those that want to, but it is a horrid waste of taxpayer dollars when it's part of a curriculum that purports to be about music.
Marching band is a great form of entertainment for parades and (US style) football games. Sometimes it's great choreography, too. It lets you play your instruments while walking in a very structured manner.
Notice I said nothing about music.
I'm guessing that the people who vehemently support and enjoy watching (you notice I didn't say "listening") to marching bands are the same people who find a painting of "Dogs Playing Poker" to be high quality art.
- You don't need marching band to teach music students leadership and responsibility.
- You don't need marching band to teach music students how to work with others.
- You don't need marching band to teach music students how to turn a phrase.
- You don't need marching band to teach music students how to play in-tune.
- You don't need marching band to teach music students how to play with a good sound.
Students can get all of these things and more from a well run music education program...even a program without a marching band.
BTW - My high school marching band "won" more than our share of trophys. It made the school administration/school board happy but the underlying damage done each year to our regular concert band and orchestra program was severe...GBK (retired HS music teacher and reluctant marching band director)
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Author: seafaris
Date: 2008-08-05 20:21
Hi All!
These are just great replies. Zach does take private lessons. One hour a week. He use to play piano very well so that will help, and he asked me for one of my older clarinets to learn.
We also have fun at the games and the energy that the kids have. I think he wants to get into education so I do realize that this (marching band) may be necessary to teach in the future.
Thanks again to everyone!
Jim
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Author: davidsampson
Date: 2008-08-05 20:32
While I don't think marching band is necessary, per se, to teach leadership, responsibility, and working with others, I think it does a better job of it than concert band does. Also, your situation may be different but around here the band program in general is not supported financially by tax payer money, except to provide a band room. And I think the skill that top tier DCI corps play their music with (yes I said music) demonstrates that there is nothing that prevents marching bands from being musical*.
*Yes, I realize DCI corps are not marching bands, but they have a similar function.
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Author: Jkelly32562
Date: 2008-08-06 01:11
Marching Band IS a part of Music Education, especially if you are a Music Ed major.
Marching band is what your directors make it. It can be a very well balanced musical experience, not all marching bands are loud and louder.
Marching band is an effective way to get funding and build support. If you play at one football game, in the south, 10,000 people will see you, if you play one concert, maybe 500 will see you. If you want to teach band in the south, and you are too good marching band, you will probably not get a job.
Marching bands give students the opportunity to arrange music, it doesn't have to be perfect in the stands.
Marching band is not one of my favorite past times, but I have done my share of it. It can be an effective teaching tool, it doesn't have to be blow you balls off loud, and corny music.
Most of the colleges in the south, UGA, UA, FSU, require at least one semester of marching band for music ed majors, and more if you want a decent scholarship.
Marching Band is just like everything, it can be anything you want it to be, as long as you apply yourself.
Concert Band is more important, but a marching band can be a valuable supplement. But the tail shouldn't wag the dog.
Jonathan Kelly
jkelly32562@troy.edu
Post Edited (2008-08-06 04:05)
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Author: ElBlufer
Date: 2008-08-06 03:26
Marching band can be a part of a music education, it simply matters how the instructors and students take it. Our school has a marching band taught by a staff of 7, of which 5 have been in a DCI drum corps (if you don't know what a drum corps is, check them out on youtube, they're what every marching band should strive to be like...minus the absence of woodwinds). In our marching band rehearsals, we work on blend, articulation, intonation, and dynamics as well as working on our marching technique. I find that we actually DO learn in marching band.
I also do find that you learn very important leadership skills in marching band. As a second year Corps Leadership Council (CLC) member, I find that I am learning how to effectively manage both small and large groups (the clarinet section and the band).
None-the-less, our school also has three concert bands year-round. Our top concert group is good enough as to where we play Grade VI music year-round, and always get unanimous superiors at festival. Depending on the year, our second concert group is able to play music anywhere from grade III to grade V, and the bottom group is meant for beginners and those who are still working on their basic instrumental skills (and they still play grade II-IV music depending on the year). In addition to that, we also have hoards of players audition for-and make-county honor band, and last year had three members attend CBDA All-state, and two go to SCSBOA All-Southern.
Overall, marching band is a great social program that can allow players to advance on their instruments if that is what they (and their instructors) thrive for.
My Setup:
R13 Clarinet (Ridenour Lyrique as my backup/marching instrument)
Walter Grabner K11 mouthpiece
Rico Reserve 3.5's
Bonade ligature
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Author: Tara
Date: 2008-08-06 04:53
UCO? Call Jeff Kidwell and get the kid in for a lesson, and talk about his future.
Good luck,
Tara
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Author: MartyMagnini
Date: 2008-08-06 13:36
I agree with JKelly on this one. I am a high school band director, and marching band is not "my thing". We put on entertaining shows for our crowd, and we do not compete. I have struggled with how much time/effort to put into marching band. Thousands and thousands of people in my community see the marching band. Only 400-500 people come to a concert.
GBK, we've had this discussion/disagreement before. When you say:
"- You don't need marching band to teach music students leadership and responsibility.
- You don't need marching band to teach music students how to work with others.
- You don't need marching band to teach music students how to turn a phrase.
- You don't need marching band to teach music students how to play in-tune.
- You don't need marching band to teach music students how to play with a good sound."
My reply is of course you are 100% right. BUT you CAN teach all of those things with marching band if you're careful. If your marching band was hurting your concert program, then something has gone wrong. Since we don't compete, maybe I am not under as much pressure as many marching band directors, but I absolutely insist that my band play in tune as much on the field as in the concert hall. And I demand correct phrasing, musicianship, etc. Do I always get it? Nope. But I don't always get it to my satisfaction in the concert hall, either. But I strive for it.
Is there too much emphasis on marching band at most schools? Absolutely. If marching band is running your program, something is amiss. But, as JKelly said, marching band can be a valuable supplement to your music program. And I think every high school music student should be part of the marching band. Many of my incoming freshmen get "hooked" on band in general by being in marching band. The crowd, the games - it's pretty cool stuff for a freshmen, and they get to know the best players in my band, and get hooked on music!
To each his own - that's my .02
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2008-08-06 14:21
Well, well well, many of these posts reflect either the kind of music played by the Marching Band or the lack of any kind but the cadence of feet helping the parade stay sober.
It all depends upon the integrity of the director. In a case of which I have drect knowledge. the director had the band play actual Bach Chorales which he had arranged. Many many times this band played good solid historical marches, such as Marche Militaire Francais, by none other that Camille Saint Saens. Or the Rakozxy March by Berlioz. (Also March to the Scaffold by Berlioz, which works on the field.)
And finally , it has to be said the Marching Band makes possible the rest of the season. It is the "raison d'etre" for being suported during the concert season, for collecting for world and local touring, for that trip to DC or many other very worthy endeavors. There are many schools in Texas where the entire school , other than the football players are in the Band, and, it is a big big deal.
It all depends upon the frame of reference of the director and his instilling in the students correct and musical habits. You don't have to BLAST on the field or in the stands. Early on, I played in all manner of secondary school bands, then post-secondary, then service bands and I learned to play, to sight-read, everything within the context of a Marching and yes, Concert Band.
Sherman Friedland
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2008-08-06 17:11
I grew up and reside in Texas and was in marching band grades 7-12. I loved it. My favorite year was when I was drum major (they only had one per band back then) and wore the great high fuzzy hat. The band adds a lot to the overall football experience and I think it is great. As far as needing to be a part of marching band for your future as a player, it isn't going to matter at all. The discipline is good, however. Also, I got to travel with the band and go places I wouldn't have gotten to otherwise.
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2008-08-06 17:44
Should only consist of brass and drums, woodwinds are pointless in marching.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-08-06 18:41
Let's not overlook or assess the damage to a high school concert band program after initially "writing off" the first 3 months of the school year, and then taking valuable time away for having to "undo" the fine tonality that was achieved by playing FFF for 12 weeks.
I've had many SERIOUS private students come to me complaining about the time needed (read:wasted) by their high school marching band. Whether it's the endless hours of taken up before, during and after school or taking time out of their weekends, too. These are high achieving kids that want to pursue music in one form or another after high school and they (and often their parents) look upon this colossal waste of time as intrusive.
Or, how about playing inane pop songs on the field while walking in zig zag patterns or making formations to spell out one syllable words.
Or, how about being forced to sit in the stands with their instrument for 3 hours watching a high school game they often have little interest in.
Perhaps these directors should really find out how many of their better musicians would rather take that same amount of time and devote it to serious practicing.
Or do ANYTHING else.
Marching band is all about the spectacle of the show. It's rarely, if ever about producing quality music.
A row of clarinets on the 50 yard line trying to be heard?
Don't make me laugh...GBK
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2008-08-06 19:13
I would imagine that you have never heard a good band play on the 50 yard line. I have, have played in many, and believe me, you wouldn't laugh.
This is a problem for the Northeastern based and schooled clarinet player or teacher and it is as you say in the NE.
But I say with conviction that it is much different in the south, especially in Texas, (which is not my home) but has an extremely well-developed high school band program. In the band as a clarinetist you are taught to play as beautifully as you are able because it makes you and the band sound better.
While they march at a much faster cadence than do those in the northeast they play much better than does the average high schoo.l band, the clarinets as well.
Yes, the "PEP" band is a real pain as it was for me and many, however I must repeat that these kinds of things, especially the High School Band program pay for everything that you as a director will need to have during your concert season, such as double reed instruments, possibly even a concert hall and all of those lovely trips that the band makes.
Take a student of the clarinet, not in a high school marching band and ask him to sight read "The Footlifter" March. Not a chance, but these rough marches are played frequently and as I mentioned in an early posting they are what helps you to progress.
But, for those of the readers who have nothing but scorn for the marching band, it helps to pay for all of those things a band needs to play the concert season.
I was fortunate as I had a wonderful and musical HS Band Director, who happened to be a fine trumpet player and a fellow who knew all of the repertoire.
His wife played the trumpet as well and sometimes at rehearsals, upon request, he would play "the Carnival of Venice" and she would use the valves of his trumpet. It was a wonderful show for us kids
He also arranged the great Copland work, "El Salon Mexico" for concert band, a terribly difficult work which we played in high school.
I do not think I would trade that time for anything.
Sherman Friedland
(and those wonderful overnight trips)
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Author: Mark Charette ★2017
Date: 2008-08-06 19:22
S. Friedland wrote:
> But, for those of the readers who have nothing but scorn for
> the marching band, it helps to pay for all of those things a
> band needs to play the concert season.
What? You mean those bake sales, turkey sales, and whatnot were for naught?
In the high school here, in the current age (not 50 or more years ago), the band plays at football games.
And gets nothing in return. The school "band boosters" are responsible for fund-raising if the band needs something other than what the school system provides, and the parents are essentially forced into providing those items. The sports venues add absolutely nothing to the band funds, but are the first to complain if the "pep band" on an away trip is a bit short of players.
Now, I'm only a parent of three boys who experienced this in one particular high school, but I am aware of essentially the same practice in all the high schools in our area. Personally - I was already making significant amounts of money playing in public by the time I reached high school, and being in the school band would have literally cost me too much.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2008-08-06 19:38
Basset: Not entirely pointless, as you can hear saxes and often flutes fairly well. Not that I'd be complaining about it being brass and drums only.
David: What's particularly wrong about bass clarinets marching?
In general, I agree that the band gets the shaft. Given that the marching rep is often painfully simple, it would make sense to me to have concert band going on at the same time as marching band, or if not everyone wants to put in the time for both (as band practice takes a 2 hour chunk out of the day that could otherwise be spent practicing rep), perhaps just chamber groups during marching season.
Doesn't help, of course, that lots of high school concert band rep is utter tripe, but that's a discussion for another topic.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2008-08-06 20:02
Mark Charette wrote:
"In the high school here, in the current age (not 50 or more years ago), the band plays at football games."
What are you talking about? Do you really think that all of this stuff was not the same 50 years ago, or more?
The Band, both marching and Concert generates an enormous amount of public interest within the whole community. This Public Interest turns into hard cold cash when it comes to approving very large purchases, which can be for music or the other arts
If it was not that way when you went to High School, perhaps it was really a tiny little place.
Sherman Friedland
Now that the two fuhrers have gotten on my case, I know I can go take a nap.
You two, GBK and Mark go back to your little flea market and count ligatures.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-08-06 20:23
Look, there are various levels of marching band. Some bands play at football games in the rain and play pop crap and memoirs of the 1970's and 80's. Others get their playing to a very high level and do spectacular shows, but all of them are exploited by the sports dept.........
You can be a good musician, or you can be a good hoagie salesman, can't really be both.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2008-08-06 20:32
Hi Everyone,
Here in the Mid-west we love our football and our marching bands. In fact, as I posted on another thread:
"This reminds me of the comment that I heard the great Dr. William D. Revelli make at a band director's workshop that I attended many, many years ago. Revelli said "there are people that will drive 100 miles in a snowstorm to hear the Michigan Marching Band play The Victors but the same people will not walk across the street to hear the Michigan Symphony Band perform at a free concert." Both bands were directed by Revelli for many years.
Here's the Michigan Band from the 2005 Band-o-Rama playing Salvation is Created; turn down the speakers, please. I was there and this was a real chiller
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lxre_9nInio
Or something a little wilder. Brenda, be sure to catch the drum major and his hat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TVcKYpZrj0
Marching band is what it is (and I'm from Ohio). Go Bucs!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rP7U5OZqL8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HSr48iBl50&feature=related
HRL
Post Edited (2008-08-07 19:34)
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2008-08-06 21:30
Mr Lehrer:
I met William Revelli at the All New England Band in the early 50s. I was at the time in HS in Brookline, Mass. We went to play in the all New England Band. Dr. Revelli went up and down the clarinets having them play. When he heard me, he said,"Take first chair". I stayed there. This was a proud moment .
Sherman Friedland
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2008-08-06 21:42
SF,
That's a great story (and a proud moment for you). Having been under the baton and the spell of Revelli many times, I would expect nothing less from him. He was a task master to say the least and his bands at Hobart, IN and then U of M were always world-class and showed his as well as his students' devotion, hard work, and sacrifice.
Thanks,
HRL
PS We must both be of about the same vintage!
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-08-06 21:50
S.Friedland wrote:
> The Band, both marching and Concert generates an
> enormous amount of public interest within the
> whole community. This Public Interest turns into
> hard cold cash when it comes to approving very
> large purchases, which can be for music or the other arts
In my school district, and in many in Northeast (certainly not the hot bed of marching bands) it is NOT the marching band which passes school budgets, but rather it is the (successful) sports teams.
Threaten to have cuts in the music program if the school budget doesn't pass? You'll have little to moderate parental discord.
Threaten to cut out the football or basketball team if the school budget doesn't pass? The parents (and often the entire community) may run you out of town.
50 years or more - that fact hasn't changed...GBK
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2008-08-06 21:52
Mr Lehrer.
(Yes, I guess so).But it and other posts are why all bands, both concert and marching are so necessary. Then and now.
Shrman Friedland
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2008-08-06 22:10
SF,
Yes, agreed but as I said earlier, we love our football and marching bands in the Midwest. Music programs (and their support) like those of the Ann Arbor Schools in MI as well as in the suburban Columbus, OH area are greatly influenced by what happens in these two Big-10 schools that are hometown organizations.
While the symphonic bands are esthetically pleasing to the ear, the marching band is the attention-getter. Few spectators in the football stands can tell you what the local HS band got at contest that year but are quick to point out if a rank is out of line or if the visiting band was "better."
HRL
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Author: renee
Date: 2008-08-06 22:15
my old high school spent $240,000 on an 8 min. show.
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Author: Ryan K
Date: 2008-08-07 03:16
Watch Phantom Regiment (DCI Drum Corp) do a show, hear how beautiful they sound, and tell me with a straight face you couldn't easily supplement any half decent concert program with a good marching program. If you as a director are going to treat it as a waste of time, and it will become so. But if you have half a wit, and as my school and director does, and you do something musically chalenging, there are many skills to be learned. Extreme listening skills, perfecting your internal pulse, steady air stream, proper breath support, being in shape to play the instrument to the best of your ablility. All skills a good marching program can teach, that you won't get as strongly in a concert program.
Look up Caramel high school and watch them do it. They sound good. They learn. Follow suit?
Ryan Karr
Dickinson College
Carlisle, PA
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Author: Matt Locker
Date: 2008-08-07 11:46
Of all the things I've done in my 52 years, marching band was the one thing I terminally despised. Marching band is not about music. It's only purpose is to provide some sort of entertainment so the fans don't get bored while the football players take a 15-30 minute break. This is really what it's all about. If there wasn't halftime at football games, there wouldn't be marching band.
Sure, you can have great marching bands & shows. It still isn't about the music.
MOO,
Matt
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-08-07 20:20
I played under Revelli just once and it is still an honor I am proud of.
But.....who would go to see a football game if there wasn't a marching band at half-time. Let's face it, marching band simply provides the same support for football that cheer leaders do......and football helps support the school.
Bob Draznik
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-08-07 20:37
Sherman Friedland wrote:
>But I say with conviction that it is much different in the south, especially in
>Texas, (which is not my home) but has an extremely well-developed high
>school band program. In the band as a clarinetist you are taught to play
>as beautifully as you are able because it makes you and the band sound
>better.
>While they march at a much faster cadence than do those in the
>northeast they play much better than does the average high schoo.l
>band, the clarinets as well.
Texas is my home, and I can second this. Marching band around here is at a pretty high level and is very competitive, as is concert band. However, I don't think that Texas schools would be as good in the concert band sphere without the widespread enthusiasm for marching band, which is so widespread because football is a big part of the culture around here.
At my school, most of our halftime shows were composed of specially written arrangements of movements from the great symphonic works, such as Dvorak's New World Symphony, Moussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition, etc. When we played Tchaikovsky's Marche Slave, we actually played and marched 3-against-2, with part of the band marching in 3 and the rest in 2--not exactly easy. These were highly technical shows, intended more for competition, than for entertainment--our competitor-schools in the area all had similar shows. We were much more like DCI than a regular marching band (and were becoming increasingly so).
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Author: OldClarinetGuy
Date: 2008-08-07 21:16
.....my old high school spent $240,000 on an 8 min. show.
I have been part of budgeting processes that included music and band costs for school districts and I have a very hard time believing that.
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Author: gwie
Date: 2008-08-07 22:45
240k? That's not out of place for big, popular programs, depending on the region.
Think of the all the costs involved that are not paid for by the students or provided solely by volunteers:
-specialized instruments for marching band (not going to need those sousaphones, snares, quints, bass drums, bell front french horns, etc. during concert season)
-electronics (PA system, metronomes, tuners)
-uniforms
-uniform storage
-big rig truck to haul all the equipment to and from shows/gasoline
-music arrangement/perf. rights
-drill writing
-music and drill chart duplication
-office supplies/promotional materials
-marching, music, and visual staff salaries
-field equipment and maintenance, lighting
-entry fees for tournaments
-liability and equipment insurance
-cost of leadership camp for student leaders
...and this is only a partial list. I taught marching band for three years out here in California before getting out of it entirely (I just work with orchestras now) but I could easily put together a cost sheet for any school with a big program (we have quite a few schools that have in excess of 250-300 performers on the field at any one time) that would absolutely swallow up a quarter-million per year budget.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2008-08-07 23:08
"... that would absolutely swallow up a quarter-million per year budget."
gwie, I think you need to read a little more carefully. renee didn't say the $240,000 was the budget for a year. She said it was the cost of a single 8-minute show. I also find that a little hard to believe but, if it's true, I sure hope it wasn't taxpayer money.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: renee
Date: 2008-08-07 23:13
Big marching bands have boosters. They are run like a business.
I hated marching, but my dad was boster president. He raised $80,000 just by selling add space on a trailer.
HS bands in texas only do one 8 min show a year.
Post Edited (2008-08-07 23:15)
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Author: OldClarinetGuy
Date: 2008-08-08 00:56
Bands do not buy new uniforms and specialty instruments and electronics and all those things yearly. These things are budgeted for years in advance
If you are talking about a band that travels more like a DCI organization, that is something different and then it would be largely supported by boosters and fund raising.
If you have a high school band with 230 kids, and you are engaging those kids in music and school because of the marching band, the money spent on the band is well spent. You could argue that you could spend the money "better" on concert band, but high school activities are not for the directors and coaches, they are there for the students and their families and the community.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2008-08-08 00:59
Hi Renee,
Thanks for the information but I am a little confused by your post. Specifically, most marching bands (and athletic team) have boosters and these organizations are also run like a business; what other way is there to do it?
Also, is this 8 minute show performed just once? That's what I read from your post. And in addition, are you implying that all HS bands in TX do the same ("HS bands in texas...")?
I realize you hate marching band but please explain more precisely concerning my questions above.
Thanks,
HRL
Post Edited (2008-08-09 01:22)
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Author: davidsampson
Date: 2008-08-08 02:45
Some schools are totally or partially funded by the school or school system, I assume thats the "other" way to run things. Most schools around here have a booster program that is financially independent of the school, and the booster controls all the money and collects/raises it, so it is much like a business.
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Author: Tara
Date: 2008-08-08 03:19
There are quite a few nationally competitive bands on the BOA circuit that most certainly could spend that much money on one year's season. It is not unbelievable.
For what it's worth, here's my opinion: Marching band can be a part of music education, or it can be a detriment to it. It all depends on how the director addresses it, and what the kids learn from the process. You can argue about it all day, but the educational process will most certainly vary widely from program to program, director to director.
Tara
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2008-08-11 01:53
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNza6xK0GJE&feature=related
When one sees and hears the quality of an honor band, of whom most march, one perhaps begins to understand the Texas Music Education scene and why there are concert bands with the array of instruments seen in this video.
It is a question of the whole meaning more than a sum of its parts as this gorgeous high school ensemble demonstrates.
Sherman Friedland
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2008-08-11 12:39
Sherman, this is the second thread you have posted links to the performance of this SYMPHONIC band. While I do not question the talents of the individuals in the ensemble or their ability to play together superbly, I challenge your premise that marching band had anything to do with their abilities to perform at this level. It's more likely that they achieved in spite of the detrimental effects which marching has on overall musicianship, rather than to attribute any of their skills and talents to the fact that they are forced to play in marching bands during the fall term of each year.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2008-08-11 15:00
Challenge away. I only know from my own experience playing in Texas Bands. Some may detest them, but an interesting conditioning factor is the person you sat next to on the bus tours. Marching and/or concert band. I was very young at the time, however the experience will remain an exciting and musically rewarding time.
Sherman Friedland
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-08-11 17:15
Sherman, Langham is great. That would be the band that I would use as an example of Concert Band - nothing to do with Marching Band though.
Listen to the Slow mvt Clarinet solo of Pines - OOPS..........
Probably wasn't used to the A Clarinet at all.
They have several other quite amazing recordings on Youtube and several CD's too - I have em and they are great.
Killer Band.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-08-11 18:18
It almost seemed to be a case of not being sure what instrument he was playing (Bb or A). Like starting out on A and then wondering if it was supposed to be transposed or not.
They have a really hot Clarinet section and he would be the best of em, so I wonder what was behind that error.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-08-12 14:16
[Entering late]
In my high school, the marching band was always bigger than the symphonic and concert band and most people in symphonic and concert band were in the marching band even though it was not required. Also, a few people were only in marching band.
Most liked marching band a lot for reasons other than just music- myself included. Many used marcing band to learn a second instrument; our double reeds went to saxophone and percussion and a lot of others switched around.
IMO- ANY exposure to live music is better than none. If kids get to play in marching band in high school, one day they might pick it up again. They will likely support their kids more in music because of fun memories. The audience at the games likes it, too. Someone mentioned that thousands hear the marching band but only 500 come to the concert band performance, but think how much less it would be if there were no marching band.
Post Edited (2008-08-12 15:11)
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-08-12 15:12
David Blumberg wrote:
> Sherman, Langham is great. That would be the band that I would use as
> an example of Concert Band - nothing to do with Marching Band though.
When I was in school (in Texas), the best concert bands were by and large also the ones to beat at the marching band competitions. I'd be willing to bet Sherman had a similar experience.
Just for the record, Langham made it to the state UIL marching contest in 2006, incidentally. (you only get to go every 2 years, so that was the last one they could have gone to) In Langham's area (suburban Houston), the competition is extremely stiff (Spring, Klein, Westfield, Pearland, and Clements, to name a few), so just getting to state is a real challenge.
And apparently, their choir program is just as good (if not better) than their band.
When I was in school they had some good players--we'd always see some at region/area band--but their band program as a whole hadn't yet taken off like it has now. They're really good!
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Author: pewd
Date: 2008-08-12 15:34
>even though it was not required
At many high schools, it IS required.
If you drop out of marching band, you can not perform with the concert band, you'll simply be removed from the band program.
Like it or not, thats how it works around here, band is a full year commitment - you can not only participate in the spring semester - you must also participate in marching band.
That should be a consideration for the OP.
Also, if the student in question goes off and majors in music education, with the goal of becoming a band director, you'll need that marching experience.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: William
Date: 2008-08-12 15:57
The only reasons for marching band are to add visual and auditory enterainment during boring sports events and to attract students who are only impressed with loud sounds and lots of showmanship. After all, kids (like muskies) are attracted by activity, not necessarily quality and to get them to "eat the cake" of musical aesthetics, it is necessary to offer lots of "frosting" on top. Marching bands, per se, have nothing to do with music, which is the business that we clarinetists should be all about--right????
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-08-12 16:07
Another consideration, which just occurred to me is that at a lot of schools where marching band is integrated into the regular band curriculum, you get phys. ed. credit for the marching component. For instance, I never had to take phys. ed. in high school, because band satisfied all those requirements.
If music is what you are happy doing, then the choice between band and phys. ed. class is easy.
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Author: Mark Charette ★2017
Date: 2008-08-12 17:06
mrn wrote:
> For instance, I never had to take phys.
> ed. in high school, because band satisfied all those
> requirements.
Lucky you. Not here in the Detroit area. You want to be in symphonic band - you get to march. No choice. If you don't want to march, try orchestra. Whoops - many schools don't have orchestra anymore.
If you want to hear a really good symphonic band and orchestra, try attending an Interlochen Arts Academy concert. Better than a lot of mid-size city symphonies. The top summer camp ensembles are no slouches, either.
No marching required - but you won't be getting any break by not marching ...
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-08-12 18:13
"You want to be in symphonic band - you get to march. No choice. If you don't want to march, try orchestra. Whoops - many schools don't have orchestra anymore."
There are four high schools in my area, and each has taken a different approach over the last decade.
School A: exactly as above, marching is mandatory. The director has every expectation that band is THE most important thing offered in the school.
School B: Marching is mandatory, and the program is losing talented musicians who don't want to have anything to do with it. The principal of this school has just overturned the Marching requirement.
School C: Marching is mandatory, but non-competitive. They only perform for home football games.
School D: Marching is optional. They field a slightly smaller band that is highly competitive. The wind ensemble of this school is excellent.
My personal opinion is that school D is the best of the bunch, followed by school A. The other two are in the middle. The whole idea of taking a concert band, having them stand up, move around and make pretty pictures while they play is a little ridiculous in my opinion...oh well!
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: OldClarinetGuy
Date: 2008-08-12 20:38
....The only reasons for marching band are to add visual and auditory enterainment during boring sports events and to attract students who are only impressed with loud sounds and lots of showmanship. After all, kids (like muskies) are attracted by activity, not necessarily quality and to get them to "eat the cake" of musical aesthetics, it is necessary to offer lots of "frosting" on top. Marching bands, per se, have nothing to do with music, which is the business that we clarinetists should be all about--right????....
The above is a cynical and mean spirited comment on students.
My kids are high achieving academic and motivated students who are fine musicians, one a clarinet performance major in college. They enjoyed marching band and along the way got a whole bunch of athletic letters and positive experiences out of the those "boring sports events".
For some of us who play clarinet and teach it a little, maybe our business is to introduce music to kids any way we can.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-08-12 21:07
"For some of us who play clarinet and teach it a little, maybe our business is to introduce music to kids any way we can."
Old Clarinet Guy, I don't disagree with your opinion on William's comments which are strongly stereotypical (although I'm closer to William's opinion that yours perhaps).
However I would also take a little issue with an implication from your comment:
Music is literally everywhere in our culture. Our job as teachers is to introduce/instruct them in the active-performing of it (as opposed to the passive-listening which already exists). Isn't it also our job to influence what they believe is good or bad? And at the very least equip them with the skills necessary to make determinations for themselves that they can support?
Generally speaking I'm not going to teach my students that Marching Band is "great" or even "good" music (more like "necessary evil"). I'm also not going to discourage them from enjoying if they do.
James
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2008-08-12 21:09)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2008-08-12 21:17
I wonder what the brass or percussion community have to say about this issue (the professor asks a rhetorical question)? But why ask as several individuals here seem to have spoken for all (parents, students, the school, director, athletic teams, spectators, etc.). I wish I had that kind of insight and passion.
It may be time to remember the immortal words of Sergeant Hulka in the 1981 movie Stripes "Lighten up, Francis."
Post Edited (2008-08-13 00:37)
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-08-12 21:46
>you can not only participate in the spring semester - you must also participate in marching band.
It is interesting that you mention "in the spring"- I am getting the feeling that a lot of schools have this semester system where there is marching band half the year and concert the other half. Is that right for most of you?
I can't say that I agree with that. It's like requiring football for the kids that only want to play baseball.
My schools had all bands running simultaneously. Symphonic band had no down time as there were performances in the fall, just as "marching band" magically became "pep band" in the spring. Also, (maybe some of the educators here will like this idea) all the band classes were credited separately; taking symphonic band and marching band was 2 separate credits. Because of that, I remember that I graduated high school with something like 20 extra credits.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2008-08-12 22:52
My daughter's school (up until last year) had a semester system, and that was the case, although after the football team was done losing all their games, the kids in band divided up into the three concert bands they had for the rest of the year. Now with trimesters, kids are finding it difficult to remain in band for all three sessions, as certain other classes they have to have are only offered at one time in one section, especially for Honors/AP type classes. The ordinary stuff has plenty of section offerings, but the high-achieving kids are basically screwed when it comes to course selection under the new system.
Like Mark mentioned above, Marching Band is the only choice available as far as a band class in the Fall. At our school orchestra is not really an option, as the orchestra is exclusively strings. Fortunately, my daughter has convinced her counselor and dean to allow Marching Band as one of the Physical Education requirements, also. We are also in the metro Detroit area, much the same as Mark, and unfortunately, we seem to suffer from the same mentality on the part of the school boards around here. Millions for sports...but not a penny for the arts.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: bstutsman
Date: 2008-08-16 06:28
Scholarships can come from different sources and for different reasons. Even non-music majors can get money to play in their college bands if they play well enough and come from a good program. Funds can come from the university in general or they can come from the band department.
A girl who just graduated from our local high school got $10k to play in her university concert band and she is not a music major.
Talk to the college band director as well as other college sources.
Whether your grandson plays in the band or orchestra may be determined by his private teacher at the college. Generally, more advanced and experienced students are more likely to make the orchestras.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2008-08-16 14:56
>this semester system where there is marching band half the year
>and concert the other half. Is that right for most of you?
yes. marching usually ends in mid to late november, with the last football game. if the football team is winning, and makes the playoffs, the marching season is extended.
there are also regional, area, and state marching contests.
most of the bands around here are done by late november. then they have a few weeks to get ready for a holiday concert, at the end of the semester.
the spring semester is all concert band, except for the last week or 2 of the school year, when they have some marching refresher drills to get ready for the following year.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: bstutsman
Date: 2008-08-16 20:05
Hey David,
As a Langham parent and a clarinet player, I have some insight here. I happened to be in the band hall one day when they were taking inventory. Langham owns 3 A clarinets. Why? I don't know.
A week or so before the TMEA concert I watched a clarinet sectional. The kid was constantly fighting pitch on the A that he was using. Come the concert, he was very insecure.
The transcription calls for an A and the music takes the A down to a low E. Were it me, I would let the soloist play it on a Bb and give the second seat player the A with instructions to only play the low E.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-08-16 20:35
It would be awfully hard to pull that off with the kind of continuity required...it isn't at all easy just to interject that low E.
The musical context of the situation would decide exactly how feasible this is.
James
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2008-08-16 20:35)
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-08-17 03:57
bstutsman wrote:
> Langham owns 3 A clarinets. Why? I don't know.
When I was in HS band, the top X-number chairs in each band section would join the orchestra for UIL concert competition (since the orchestra program itself was strictly for strings, at least in those days). If Langham does the same thing, it would make sense that the band would have multiple A clarinets to use at orchestra competitions--and three would probably be sufficient for that purpose in most cases.
I suppose that, in theory, you could also use them for the all-region/all-state orchestra clinic/performance, if necessary. I don't remember ever having to use one at all-region orchestra, but that doesn't mean it never happens. We played Pines of Rome one year when I made all-region orchestra, but since we only played mvts. 2 & 4, I didn't need an A.
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