 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ruben
Date: 2025-11-01 15:40
By "air attacks", I don't mean bombs falling on one's head. I mean attacking a note-or rather starting some tones-without the use of the tongue. I was told by my one of my teachers never to do this, but it would seem to me this is an enlargement of one's expressive vocabulary.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
Post Edited (2025-11-01 23:50)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2025-11-01 16:03
Some altissimo notes in certain conditions will speak better using an 'air attack' than being tongued.
Although a lot of clarinet players I know are ATTACK WARNING RED! ATTACK WARNING RED! all the time.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repairer
Single and Double Reed Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2025-11-01 16:59
Sometimes floating a note into audibility, with no "attack' or pressure release, is effective.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2025-11-01 17:55
ruben wrote:
> ...attacking a note-or rather starting some tones-without the
> use of the tongue. I was told by my one of my teachers never
> to do this, but it would seem to me this is an enlargement of
> one's expressive vocabulary.
>
I think, from what I've read, that Marcellus opposed starting notes this way, so I imagine many of his students would have adopted the same attitude. He probably wasn't the only clarinetist in history who took that position.
The thing about tongueless starts is that you need to be in very good control so the note speaks when it needs to. You can produce a note that "just appears" without an obvious "attack" whether you use a slight push on the air column or a very light release of the reed by your tongue. To me, what's important is what the listener hears rather than how you produce it.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2025-11-01 19:46
There was an internet available master class given by Karl Leister at Northwestern University where there was a note in the Brahms 1st sonata that he wanted a student to execute without the tongue. It is a long, "accented" chalumeau note that actually sounds pretty cool with this technique because it merely "rounds out" the beginning of the note, like a singer starting a word that begins with a vowel rather than a consonant. Seems pretty clear that this sort of approach should be just another arrow in the quiver rather than a controversy, however, the student(s) had quite the problem executing this probably more out of habit than will.
Since I saw that, I look for opportunities to start notes without the tongue, and there are A LOT of great places to do so!
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: ruben
Date: 2025-11-01 20:21
Karl: Mitchell Lurie was also dead set against starting a note without using the tongue. He said that when teaching, he was always on the lookout for this in order to correct it. I don't understand why.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Ed
Date: 2025-11-01 20:54
I agree that it is another very effective musical approach. Over many years of playing, it was not something I did a lot, but there were instances where it served the music beautifully. I agree with Paul, that it is like using a vowel rather than a consonant.
When I think about the many varied ways a string player might use the bow or how a singer might approach a note, I see no reason why we should limit what we do. While I am all in favor of a good solid grounding in the pedagogy and techniques of the clarinet, I think it is also important to think about the best way to express the music.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2025-11-01 22:44
Ed wrote:
> I agree with Paul, that it is like using a vowel rather than a
> consonant.
>
I've done this, too, and it can produce a very ethereal beginning of a note, but I think the same effect can be had using a very gentle tongue *release* - starting with the tongue in light contact with the reed to hold it still, starting a very quiet air column and gently withdrawing the tongue without first pressing into the reed, which is what can cause the "pop" we're trying to avoid. I guess the choice depends on which produces a better result for the individual players.
When I studied voice in college (a long time ago) even a vowel needed to be started with a slight push - if not with a glottal start, then a quiet "hah" to give the beginning of the note/word definition. It was also something you did to cleanly end a note that ended with a vowel - a slight unvocalized "huh." Done correctly, the listener doesn't hear anything but the intended note.
> When I think about the many varied ways a string player might
> use the bow or how a singer might approach a note, I see no
> reason why we should limit what we do.
Agreed!
> While I am all in favor
> of a good solid grounding in the pedagogy and techniques of the
> clarinet, I think it is also important to think about the best
> way to express the music.
I don't think there's an "also" involved - anything you do to produce an intended musical effect *is* a technique, whether or not it's a part of generally accepted pedagogy. So, it's important to think about the best way to express the music ("also" deleted), pedagogy notwithstanding.
Karl
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Author: ruben
Date: 2025-11-01 23:52
As Chris P said, some..or the majority..of notes of the altissimo register respond better and more adroitly without activating the reed with your tongue.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Alexey
Date: 2025-11-02 00:19
I think sometimes it's useful to learn to start the note without the tongue, as it removes the tongue from the equation and helps to feel and understand what embouchure and breathing are doing.
Also, I think it's not an easy skill if done properly, meaning the note appears at the time we want, at the pitch we want, at the dynamic we want.
As for altissimo, I agree that often it responds better without tongue, but to me it's a sign that most likely smth is wrong with the movement of the tongue.
I noticed that when I have an issue with using the tongue in altissimo, most likely I have one or several issues: my tongue touches the reed in the wrong place, my tongue applies too much pressure on the reed, and, most importantly, I don't move the tip of my tongue separately from middle and back parts of the tongue and from pressure I created on the reed. It means that the movement of my tongue destroys the shape I created with my mouth to achieve the altissimo note.
Eventually, I came up with an exercise. I played the same note over and over again, alternating between starting notes with and without the tongue ( air-tongue-air-tongue-etc). Doing this, I try to ensure that the "air attack" sounds defined as possible, and "tongue attack" sounds as soft as possible, without characteristic harshness.
In other words, I try to approximate the two attack patterns so that they sound similar and the start of the note is clear and defined, but it's impossible to tell whether I was tonguing or not.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2025-11-02 00:26
Alexey: I love your exercise! I'll try it out tomorrow and I'm sure it is excellent.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: donald
Date: 2025-11-02 00:26
To be avoided at all cost at student level - SO MANY students I've taught over the years have been held back by their poor "initial articulation" (starting the sound) mostly caused by developing the HABIT of starting the sound without the tongue (and avoiding tonguing at all cost because they never got good/comfortable at it).
Once you are an advanced player, assuming you control of a variety of attacks, your tone quality and dynamics, you can do what you like so long as it sounds good and is musically appropriate.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2025-11-02 10:49
Donald: True! Students must be taught to use theur tongue. Many get into the bad habit of detaching notes by constricting their throats.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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