 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: smill01
Date: 2019-05-12 10:17
Some teachers (e.g. Opperman via Chris Jones?) have recommended keeping the left pinky on the E/B key when the finger is idle. Though this helps keep all the fingers close to the keys, it feels like it will take some rewiring to make it a habit. Do any of you have any experience with this? Worth doing?
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Author: RKing
Date: 2019-05-13 16:46
That is exactly how I was taught to do it back in 5th grade. The left pinky sat on the E/B key and it was an easy slide to the F#/C# key or the alternate F/C key.
My right pinky was taught to sit on the F/C key and I learned to find the others in similar fashion from that "home" key.
Cheers,
Ron
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-05-13 19:36
I recommend "hovering" over the "E/B" key. Since you have to use the alternate "C" and "C#" sharp keys often enough that maintaining physical contact sounds like more of a hindrance. Think of the way you type. I doubt if you keep your index fingers ON "F" and "J" all the time.
Another concept I'll throw out there is that using the left "F/C" key as your main "go to" for scales C, F, Bb, Eb and G may make the technique even more fluid.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2019-05-14 04:51
I don't think most students are going to do well with the 'hovering' idea. They need something tactile to help them learn good hand position. While typing this some of my fingers are nearly always in contact with the keyboard and this helps my brain to know exactly where to aim the ones in motion so that they connect with proper key when landing (most of the time) without me looking.
Unless it's been addressed in their studies most aspiring clarinetists seem to have hands that move excessively and chaotically making technical proficiency and ease much more challenging to achieve. The home keys do change with the tonal context of the music, but the practice of having them has more benefits than disadvantages in my experience. My own pinkies do hover at times but more as the exception than the rule.
I'd also take issue with the idea of using the left hand C as the primary fingering except perhaps when smaller hands might make it necessary. The right hand C is a much more efficient mechanism and the one that most of us end up preferring.
How your fingers and hands work the clarinet is ultimately a matter of habits. Choose the ones you wish to rely on carefully. Efficiency and lack of unnecessary tension are key. Scales and arpeggio practice are a good arena to work out those choices.
Anders
Post Edited (2019-05-14 04:53)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2019-05-14 17:40
As I read these comments, I'm wondering how easy it is to teach a young student to hold his left pinky *on* (touching) the E/B lever and the right pinky *on* the F/C key without occasional mishaps involving accidentally pressing those keys down. Neither would need to go down to full closure to cause small glitches in technical passages work or even in slower legato lines - just far enough down to affect the color or quality of the notes that are intended.
Obviously, I wasn't taught this or I wouldn't need to ask the question, but my knee-jerk reaction is that a finger resting on a key is one that sooner or later will unconsciously press it while the player isn't paying close attention (or is attending to something else).
Karl
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Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2019-05-15 00:57
Karl,
I agree with the sentiment you raise, but both the E/B and the F/C keys are "normally open", and it's a good way to reinforce independence of the fingers to have them 'loosely anchored' as my saxophone instructor used to tell me about the Low C key. He also advocated anchoring my LH pinky on the G# key which is normally closed and a hair-trigger away from disaster, it does help with the instantaneous 'finding' of the Bell Keys...
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2019-05-15 02:31
Karl,
I've always thought that this was a standard part of clarinet pedagogy, but the fact that both you and Paul find it questionable/unfamiliar makes me wonder about that a little. It's certainly a widely known and used concept.
To answer your question - rarely and only in the beginning. I did have it happen with my most recent beginner student and it took him a couple of weeks to master playing the low G without also pressing the F key. I see this as an advantage though as it trains the hands from the beginning to have the degree of independence between the ring finger and pinkie needed to play the clarinet as shmuelyosef mentioned. It also trains the fingers to be well positioned without being overly tense. Once the habit is established I've never seen issues with it.
Anders
Post Edited (2019-05-15 08:50)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-05-15 20:51
But what habit? You have four keys on the right and four keys (if you include the C#/G#) on the left. I personally believe that the actual contact is training one to CHOOSE a primary key which is not the case.
One last point about contact: Our right middle finger has only one job, but you wouldn't advocate keeping it down on the second tone hole of the lower joint.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2019-05-16 00:29
Paul Aviles wrote:
> One last point about contact: Our right middle finger has
> only one job, but you wouldn't advocate keeping it down on the
> second tone hole of the lower joint.
If you don't like the concept and want to dismiss it out of hand that's fine. However setting up a straw man isn't really fair or helpful.
Both rationale and source have been mentioned If anyone would like to see published material on this they can refer to Ridenour's " The Educator's Guide to the Clarinet".
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-05-16 01:08
I'd just like to see what Hawley, Klug, Shifrin have to say about it.
Straw man? We are talking about the SAME THING. You hover over all your other keys when you play an open G, what's the difference? I just wouldn't put a student through that cofusion.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2019-05-16 04:50
Paul Aviles wrote:
> Straw man? We are talking about the SAME THING. You hover
> over all your other keys when you play an open G, what's the
> difference? I just wouldn't put a student through that
> cofusion.
Paul, I apologize. It's not a straw man if you just don't understand what's being presented, which you seem not to. I give up. Just know that no student of mine has ever had the slightest confusion with it. The failure here must be mine at being unable to make it clear without a clarinet in hand. It's very simple when applied.
It's funny you should mention Klug. His endorsement of Ridenour's book on the back cover is quite effusive. It ends with "I highly recommend Tom's book for everyone who loves the clarinet and wants to get better." Ricardo calls it "a comprehensive book that addresses every aspect of clarinet pedagogy written by a master teacher...." You might find it interesting.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2019-05-16 15:26
OP wrote:
>> Some teachers (e.g. Opperman via Chris Jones?) have recommended keeping the left pinky on the E/B key when the finger is idle.>>
Perhaps Nellsonic can explain for me how this works in a bit more detail.
If you play an upper register harmonic minor scale C5 to C6, so that the notes are C, D, Eb, F, G, Ab, B, C, the LH little finger must stop being 'idle' at some point, in order to play the Ab.
When, in your case? Or is it 'off' the E/B key from the beginning, even if you're a student?
Ridenour's book may well deal with all this, but copies are difficult and expensive to obtain, and I haven't succeeded in getting one. And, while I'm about it, what does Ridenour's book say about diphragmatic support?
As someone who has engaged with this, both here and in my chapter in the Cambridge Companion, I have found no intelligible treatment in the literature. Every tutor I've encountered fudges the issue, including Russianoff, Stubbins and Pino; so what does Ridenour say? (Arnold Jacobs is just plain WRONG, for a clarinet player.)
Tony
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2019-05-16 20:42
nellsonic wrote:
> It's funny you should mention Klug. His endorsement of
> Ridenour's book on the back cover is quite effusive. It ends
> with "I highly recommend Tom's book for everyone who loves the
> clarinet and wants to get better." Ricardo calls it "a
> comprehensive book that addresses every aspect of clarinet
> pedagogy written by a master teacher...."
The endorsements of Tom's book by Ricardo Morales and Howard Klug don't necessarily imply their endorsement of every detail the book contains. Looking at a couple of Youtube videos of Klug and Morales (and having seen a good deal of Morales in live performance), neither seems to rest his left pinky (or his right one) on any particular key.
I agree that we're free to do this or dismiss it out of hand. And I admit that I "just don't understand what's being presented." But, if you're citing authorities (beyond Tom Ridenour himself) for support, at least the authorities might actually be relevant. They're endorsing the book, not necessarily (or apparently, from their own playing) this technique.
> Both rationale and source have been mentioned If anyone would like
> to see published material on this they can refer to Ridenour's " The
> Educator's Guide to the Clarinet".
More than a published source, I'd much rather see examples of this approach in actual use. Do you know of any players whose YouTube (or any) videos would provide examples?
Karl
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2019-05-18 05:40
I may have learned that way back in 1963, who knows. I've not heard of any professionals or good amateurs doing this and would not recommend it. Both pinkys must be free to hit any of the keys.
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Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2019-05-20 10:45
Thanks, Tony, for finding those videos. I hope they make things clearer than I was able to. It's been a busy weekend and I hadn't had time to make another attempt.
I think it's a very sound system for starting beginners and correcting hand position issues in intermediate players. It's also a good possible approach when technical difficulties seem intractable for more experienced players. I have found it useful in my own playing. To me personally, it's a methodology that can be helpful rather than a set of rules to be followed blindly for all time. My understanding is that it comes from Kal Opperman who certainly had a very successful track record as a teacher.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2019-05-20 18:48
Well, from those videos, I can mostly that the fingers where possible should find their way to the next key they will need to press - anticipating action beforehand. I didn't get the idea that he was suggesting using LH E/B and/or RH F/C as anchors. Maybe I need to watch again.
Interesting to me, I paid closer attention than usual to what I was doing with respect to anticipating the notes. I realized that I naturally do this (at least, I was never taught to do it explicitly) and that when I get into trouble in a sight-reading exercise, it's almost always because my fingers are not where they need to be for the upcoming notes and are consequently late. So, if my understanding of Tom's point in the video is the importance of anticipation, I think that's almost a given beyond a certain level of technical demand. The goal of keeping fingers from flying out by keeping them close to or even touching keys before needing to press them is, likewise, to an extent the result of efficient finger position. Although, I have noticed that sometimes having fingers too close to open holes can cause problems as well - for example I have from time to time produced bad effects by not lifting my ring fingers far enough to clear the tone holes or the RH rings.
I don't see that anchoring on LH E/B by resting on it as a normal finger position is part of this. But I haven't read Tom's book and there may be other videos that make that point more clearly.
Karl
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2019-05-21 02:21
Nellsonic wrote, in part:
>> I have found it useful in my own playing. To me personally, it's a methodology that can be helpful rather than a set of rules to be followed blindly for all time. >>
That seems to me to sum it up.
That ......Paul Aviles wrote:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpezl7wiHrQ
>> Arguably one of Cal Opperman's more famous students. I'm not catching either pinky resting on a particular key.
>> Just sayin' >>
Yes, it's what you do: SAY a lot.
There's a culture on this BBoard that overemphasises the degree to which players who have studied with a particular teacher 'inherit' that teacher's playing and ideas.
Many don't.
Tony
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-05-21 07:53
I find this an interesting idea. It seems that something as simple as what pieces you pull out the the case first how you assemble them is due to your earliest instructors.
Ideally we should seek out a wide variety of instructors and various approaches so that we can choose the bits we like best and incorporate them into what works best for us as individual players. But that still means we got the information from someone.
Even though there will be new generations of great clarinetists taking the art form ever further, it is because they stood on the shoulders of giants.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: michele zukovsky
Date: 2019-05-27 09:14
i would suggest resting the fingers on e,d,c,b flat, a, and g.
then practice the first exercise of baerman book 4 and get the pinkies up to speed and strength.
that will be ten dollars, please.
please note new email
michelezukovsky@gmail.com
michelezukovsky@gmail.com
Post Edited (2019-05-28 12:50)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2019-05-27 16:32
michele zukovsky wrote:
> that will be ten dollars, please.
>
You should charge more. At that price no one will respect you. ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
Karl
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Author: smill01
Date: 2021-03-17 12:28
Just an update on this older thread, that Larry Guy in his book Hand and Finger Development for Clarinetists recommends "hovering over or lightly touching" the E/B (LH) and F/C (RH) keys.
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2021-03-17 21:23
This is the first time I have heard of this pinky resting on the key idea. Logically it doesn't sound good because if you have to use that pinky on any other key you first have to move it (or slide it as suggested, which is doable but not the best idea unless necessary). Moving it off the key is an extra step.
I like Paul's idea of "hovering" and have used that term myself when teaching. I also have advised keeping fingers as close to the holes as possible without affecting the note's pitch. Again, the less movement you need to get to the next note the better. That is also my theory as to why I think playing Eb clarinet it a tiny bit easier for speed, since fingers are all closer together.
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tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
Post Edited (2021-03-17 21:24)
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Author: brycon
Date: 2021-03-18 01:35
Quote:
I like Paul's idea of "hovering" and have used that term myself when teaching. I also have advised keeping fingers as close to the holes as possible without affecting the note's pitch. Again, the less movement you need to get to the next note the better. That is also my theory as to why I think playing Eb clarinet it a tiny bit easier for speed, since fingers are all closer together.
It's important to keep in mind we tell some things to very young students because they tend to develop all sorts of crazy habits. I'm sure when I used to teach young students, I told them to keep their fingers near the keys to which they belong. (But I also had to remind a few that the left hand goes on top!)
With more advanced players, though, a blanket "the less movement you need, the better" approach is a bad teaching and playing strategy. Good technique is the result of, among other things, proper finger motion and rhythm.
As an example: If you play an F major scale beginning on throat-tone F and going upward, your right hand doesn't have to do anything until you reach C. If we're playing F major in continuous 16th-notes, then, the right hand is up on beat one and closes on beat two; it moves, in other words, in a quarter-note pulse. Teaching a student to feel the rhythm of a quarter-note in the right hand and moving the fingers from the large knuckles will give him or her good technique here. Stressing keeping the fingers as close to the keys as possible can screw up both these aspects and introduce unnecessary tension in the hands.
When I studied piano, my teachers were always commenting on finger rhythm and motion. We'd do scales very slowly and feel the upbeat pulse in the fingers as well as the motion from the large knuckles. But they never mentioned keeping my fingers as close to the keyboard as possible. With piano, rather, you need a range of finger motions and finger heights to express the music (legato, staccato, weighted accents, etc.). It would be rather silly to say, "just keep your fingers as close to the keyboard as possible." And I think the same is true of the clarinet as well.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-03-18 04:28
Hmmmmm...........
Never really thought about rhythm moving from one hand to the other. I usually play C, F, G major with BOTH left and right pinkies down going up (or down) because it avoids any gap in note and it would be necessary on a German horn anyway. Also I find myself using keys more from both rather than one or the other.
Odd you bring that up. Marcellus used to say that he preferred to keep technique in one hand or the other.
The piano may be a poor analogy because one moves up and down the keyboard but with clarinet it is more (in my opinion) like the typewriter. I tell students that if you move your hands around you can wind up hitting keys or part of tone holes you don't want to hit in a similar way one begins to type gibberish if one's hand or the other shifts off the home key position.
Maybe Marcellus was more of pianist :-)
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2021-03-18 05:15
Re: fingers close. Perhaps my teaching of that was in response to seeing young kids with fingers held way away from the holes, causing problems. Honestly, I'm not sure exactly where my fingers are when I'm playing, long as it works.
Re: Doing stuff with one hand if possible. Agree. Example: 4th space E going to 3rd space C#--- When I was young I played the C# with LH pinky--probably because I learned LH C# first. At some point I realized that (for me anyway), using the RH pinky on the C# was less risky regarding letting a little D slip in there. Anytime I can go from one note to another moving only one hand I will do that. There may be an exception or 2 in altissimo. Halve to think on that.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
Post Edited (2021-03-18 05:17)
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Author: brycon
Date: 2021-03-18 17:40
Quote:
Never really thought about rhythm moving from one hand to the other. I usually play C, F, G major with BOTH left and right pinkies down going up (or down) because it avoids any gap in note and it would be necessary on a German horn anyway. Also I find myself using keys more from both rather than one or the other.
Yes, there's a rhythm to the right hand in my F major scale example. But what's important is that there's always a sense of rhythm to technique, and for good players, it's a much more important facet of technique than keeping your fingers close to the keys.
Maybe one more example to show the point. Finger through the Alberti bass passage at the end of the Mozart exposition. Assuming you're playing a French system, the left-hand ring finger will move up and down from it's tone hole in eighth-note pulses; the right-hand index and ring fingers will move up and down in quarters except for beat 4, where they join the eighths; and the right-hand middle finger will move mostly in eighths, on beats 1, 2, and 4, but in quarters on beat 2.
Among other things, the steadiness of the eighth notes in the left hand combined with the rhythmic integrity of the right hand, playing accurate quarters to and matching eighth notes with the motoric left-hand ring finger, are important technical aspects of playing this passage well. And while I myself don't pedantically think through passages this way, because I'm unconsciously competent in terms of good technique, it can help students who are struggling.
Quote:
The piano may be a poor analogy because one moves up and down the keyboard but with clarinet it is more (in my opinion) like the typewriter. I tell students that if you move your hands around you can wind up hitting keys or part of tone holes you don't want to hit in a similar way one begins to type gibberish if one's hand or the other shifts off the home key position.
Yes, pianists shift their hands up and down the keyboard. But for music where the position remains set--the opening phrase of Mozarts K. 545, for example--the finger motion is very similar to clarinet.
An exercise I do with good students--usually the types who want to please their teachers and therefore developed terrible habits from trying to keep their fingers ludicrously close to the clarinet--is to have them sit at the keyboard and play C-D-E-F-G-F-E-D-C, which remains in a single position. (I myself use a Brahms trill exercise as a similar finger "warmup.") The students can then hear which of their fingers moves improperly much more easily than they can while playing the clarinet. Once they can play the scale segment well, with good rhythm, articulation, etc., I'll have them play it while blowing air through a coffee stir straw. And finally, we'll play some games, such as do a crescendo-decrescedo through the straw while playing piano on the keyboard and so on. I find this exercise gets their fingers moving much more fluidly and naturally than much of the advice I read here.
But because you mentioned hand-position changes on the keyboard, I should point out that I think the hand position on the clarinet also engages in shifts. The left-hand throat-tone G# key or the right-hand side trill keys, for instance, both require a shift or pivot with your wrist. If you try to maintain your hand position (and yes, keep your fingers hovering above the tone holes) while engaging these keys, it's going to screw up your technique and possibly introduce unnecessary tension. So these shifts, such as occurs in the clarion F to Bb leaps in the second movement of Beethoven's 6 symphony, require some practicing. But again, it's that sort of thinking, not mindlessly keeping fingers hovering above keys, that leads to good technical facility.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-03-19 06:13
Interesting
I do not move at the wrist at all. In fact I teach that when you pivot at the wrist, you inherently move your fingers off their tone hole targets. It should be easy enough to move the index fingers laterally to the correct position for the throat "G#" and the side keys.
no tension
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: brycon
Date: 2021-03-19 07:37
Quote:
I do not move at the wrist at all. In fact I teach that when you pivot at the wrist, you inherently move your fingers off their tone hole targets. It should be easy enough to move the index fingers laterally to the correct position for the throat "G#" and the side keys.
If you have good technique, you probably already move some at the wrist. Do a trill, say from throat-tone A to Bb, with the right-hand side key and see if you're moving only the right index finger. Most likely, if you have somewhat fast trills, you're moving both the wrist and the finger in combination. Engaging the wrist in trills, by the way, is pretty common pedagogy.
But yes, when you shift positions with your wrist, whether on a side-key trill or a throat-tone G#, your other fingers will move slightly away from their tone holes. Moving them back into the "standard position" is something that requires practicing.
If you're set on keeping your hand position consistently locked in place (and I'm thinking about what Emerson says with regard to consistency here), try repeating an F# minor scale segment, throat-tone F#-G#-A-G#, in sixteenth-notes as an ostinato. How fast can you play it with your wrist locked?
Now I'm sure there are some instances in the repertoire where I play G# without changing hand positions, such as you advise. More often than not, though, I move my hand. But much more importantly, I don't teach students that they must keep their wrists set in place, must keep their fingers close to the instrument, etc. because these musts are often detrimental to healthy playing.
Post Edited (2021-03-19 08:05)
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2021-03-19 07:59
A side note on trills-- There are certain trills you can play really fast that involve the left hand. By holding the clarinet tight & steady with the R.H. and shaking the entire left arm. Can't be done with R.H. trills.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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