 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2017-12-04 00:15
Quick reference to the Rose Etude I’m talking about... it’s #35 that starts with a sextuplet, little two octave chromatic cadenza form D to D two-thirds through...no idea which book it is, but y’all probably know what I’m referring to...
In Texas, they are showing the max suggested tempo as 104. Arguably slow for most stronger players. (Heck we pushed it to 132 when I was in HS...probably too quick to maintain integrity). In theory a player is allowed a +/- 20 bpm for tempos. For this etude adding 20 sounds way out of the norm to the judges (they thought it too flashy).
So my student has been executing very well while pushing the tempo to 120ish +. He’s got clean technique, nice core sound, and exceptional musicality and style compared to his peers during tryouts with his performance.
So here’s the rub, he gets nervous, as most of as would, and his adrenaline pushes everything to the brink of craziness. He’s done all the classic relaxation techniques...deep breaths, etc. I have not given him metoprolol... I’m not an MD. But when he needs to execute; his excitement gets hectic - borderline out of control.
I plan on ‘zip tying’ a metronome to his forehead for the next month. But do you guys have a secret that works for you to help maintain control. Something that hasn’t been discussed to death previously.
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2017-12-04 00:48
I am assuming you are talking about the Rose studies? There are only 32 Rose etudes.
Post Edited (2017-12-04 02:07)
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2017-12-04 02:01
Geesh...this is the reason so many are fearful of posting on the Bboard. Already someone is bogged down in the minutia of a title that they can’t offer anything informative to say.
So how above this...the etude doesn’t matter. (The last time I checked the Rose 40 studies were still etudes). Does anyone have a chill, relax technique they employ besides deep breaths and heart regulators?
Still determined to make clarinet playing a fun activity,
Robert L Schwebel
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Author: Ed
Date: 2017-12-04 02:12
I was looking for clarification, so I could refer to the study you were discussing. I thought perhaps I could offer an answer in the specific context of the piece being played. I assumed that since you took the time to mention it that it is relevant information. My mistake. I apologize for offending you.
Post Edited (2017-12-04 02:24)
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Author: brycon
Date: 2017-12-04 02:31
Could be a technical issue instead of a psychological one. With my own students, I've noticed the ones who have similar problems have, in general, difficulty controlling their technique and maintaining a steady tempo. So I have them practice with the metronome on beats two and four.
If the etude goes 120, then, put the met on 60 and make it the weak beats. If your student has a fancy metronome that can go rather slow, put it on 30 and make it beat two of every bar. He could also play through the etude at 120 but make the metronome beat the upbeat rather than the downbeat.
The moral of the story: practicing with the metronome on every beat is, for the most part, a waste of practice time. Maybe working to solidify pulse and tempo will prevent anxiousness? Moreover, I find that practicing with the beat on two and four keeps things more relaxed and flowing under duress.
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Author: echi85
Date: 2017-12-04 02:36
I successfully went through the system when I was in high school and I help many students today do the same thing. Here are things that have worked for me and my students:
1.) Preparation is key. If you know the etudes like the back of your hand, it's very unlikely you are going to play poorly. Auditions are honest. How you play is representative of how well prepared you are. Obsession is a must. Drill everything.
2.) Practice relaxed. If you plan on playing easily during an audition, you have to practice doing it at home.
3.) Play for others or record yourself often. If you try to simulate the conditions of an audition regularly, they become far less intimidating.
4.) Take 10% off your tempo. If you get really nervous, make sure you take it at least 10% slower in the actual audition. In Texas, cleanliness is the name of the game.
5.) Visualization. Do what many professional athletes do. You have to imagine yourself going through the process of the audition and doing well. From what you are going to eat in the morning to how you play. Do it often.
6.) Keep it in perspective. It's just music. You are not going to war. Be appreciative that you live in a society in which we have the luxury of playing music competitively.
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2017-12-04 03:03
I like brycon's answer - use the metronome to play accurately slower. But beyond that, a bad tempo is one that fails to serve the music being played. Think about the music without a clarinet in hand. Develop a good strong feeling of how the music needs to sound, its character, its logic, its expression, the "message". The right tempo will then sort of self-internalize. Technical execution should then develop naturally. Focusing on a tempo as a goal can miss what's important, and it not working is a sign of just that.
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Author: Brickbinder
Date: 2017-12-04 03:25
Yes the etude does matter because if you want people to help you, they need to know what piece you are looking for help with.
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Author: echi85
Date: 2017-12-04 03:35
Its etude 35 out of the Rose 40 although the question is really about audition preparation.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2017-12-04 03:39
It's no. 35 in G major from the Rose 40; page 37 in the Hite "Artistic Studies from the French School" (Southern Music). The marked tempo is quarter note = 100. Rose copied the etude from Jacques Fereol Mazas.
By the way, Eric Chi (echi85) knows what he's talking about; he's made excellent recordings of Rose etudes on YouTube to model performance for students.
Here he is playing the etude in question (for some reason here labeled #3):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NngGcD_Ue8Q
Lots of the French virtuoso clarinetists have found the answer to assuring a nerve-defiant performance of etudes like these by singing them while they finger the passage without a clarinet in their hands. Augustine Duques at Julliard, for example, was famous for being about to solfeggio sing through etudes faster than most players can play them. (I say "nerve-defiant" rather than "nerve-free" because there is no way to make yourself not nervous; but you can learn to make yourself play well despite your nerves).
When rhythm singing, you don't have to get the pitch just right; in fact, just singing the rhythms rapidly with great exactitude will do the trick. Use syllables to sing the rhythm da-da-dat-da-da-da ta-ta-ta-ta da-da-da-da da-da-da-da la, for example, for the first two bars, and so on. If you solfeggiate through it rapidly and finger the notes without the instrument, it will help to set the pattern in your body/mind to make it easier when you play it.
Jose Franch Ballester said in a master class that when he is travelling on airplanes he often fingers through passages and (silently) articulates their rhythm patterns.
Post Edited (2017-12-06 06:37)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-12-04 03:55
There are a lot of tricks to do while playing. But I need to know the piece. Rats!
For example if it is a slower piece one of the tricks is to press down on the keys before you lift your fingers up. Also slowly move your fingers down very slowly and don't snap your fingers. So press down and lift and very slowly let your finger melt to the keys.
If the piece is on the faster side always get louder as the notes go up and softer and the notes go down the scales.
Think of a story when playing a piece. Don't play the notes. For example when I perform the Mozart Quintet and the Concerto the slow movements I know that Mozart loved to dance with beautiful women on the weekends. So in my mind I think of these beautiful women slow dancing flawlessly to the music he wrote so well. As a performer we have to get into the MOOD of the piece. We have to SEE the piece in color, not notes.
Another piece that is so often played wrong is the Copland Concerto. The cadena was written according to Copland himself, yes I talked to him about this piece. It was written for Benny Goodman and he and Benny grew up in the 1940's in New York City both loving Big Band music. This was to be played with a jazz feel. A Big Band feel. But as we all know some players try to triple tongue this part and get through it in about 8 seconds or less! Yes a joke, but you get the idea.
So get your student to FEEL what is going on here. What does the music remind him of? Then he should be OK. His nerves should be under control or at least the idea of what the piece is about will settle him down.
Hope this helps
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2017-12-04 04:07
Guys these are amazing suggestions. I feel like I turn on a metronome in a lesson and he’s steady like a rock. Executing well. But in an actual performance situation it all goes out the window. He’s is own worst enemy.
He’s super competitive and knows clean technique will usually win the day. A characteristic sound is of course crucial. Sadly actually creating music always takes a back burner. Hence I’m insistent on making more than the notes in front of them. Hopefully (some) judges will appreciate the extra effort. {On the etude in question a fellow judge commented what pity for the player...he’s obviously the strongest player here. My student said to me did the same thing on the other fast etude.}
Again that y’all so much. He has work to do, but the foundation is strong.
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: brycon
Date: 2017-12-04 04:11
Quote:
It's no. 35 in G major from the Rose 40; page 37 in the Hite "Artistic Studies from the French School (Southern Music). The marked tempo is quarter note = 100. Rose copied the etude from Jacques Fereol Mazas.
Side bar: I grew up in TX and did the all-state thing; I also taught there for a couple of years and had to usher people through the all-state thing.
At any rate, I never understood why they used that damned Hite book. The expressive markings are horribly counterintuitive, the tempo markings are all over the place, and the Italian text markings are often the sort of absurd abstrusiousities that never appear in real music (this particular etude is marked chiaramente, which is infuriating).
What's worse, however, is that the band directors judging these competitions often don't know enough about music to understand the basics of style and expression. So if a savvy student leaves out a nonsensical crescendo, he or she is liable to lose points in some judges' minds.
Alright, rant over. Apologies.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2017-12-04 04:24
I guess the Rose have achieved the status of the ACT and SAT tests for college entrance. You hate them, but there they are.
Musically I'd go with the Polatchek Advanced Studies, or the Frederick Thurston
Passage Studies, or the H.Voxman Bach transcriptions in his Classical Studies or
the Drucker edition of Scarlatti transcriptions any day. But for some unexplained reason these have not lodged themselves into the clarinet canon the way the Rose have.
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Author: brycon
Date: 2017-12-04 04:26
Not so much a problem with the Rose but with Hite's terrible editing job.
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2017-12-04 04:36
Brycon...
We just discussed this exact thing. It’s dumbfounding.
I had to literally fight to hear the ‘a’ turns in m13 and 15 (I could be slightly off with my measure). I told the band directors few students will be able to play them accurately. They let me win the battle to select the cut...with grumbling under their breadth. When we finished they all laughed how poorly they played the turns; glad ‘we’ picked that part.
But yes there are ton of errors and every edition that comes out doesn’t seem to ever fix all the mistakes. I don’t mind the etudes, just wish the kids had to play a few scales and the chromatic. Sight reading is a great way to separate the masses out too.
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: echi85
Date: 2017-12-04 05:05
I was very good at the all-state system when I was in high school. I was even first in the state my senior year.
I agree 100% with Brycon, particularly about the whole band director situation. It's astounding that you can go through a 4 year degree in music education and somehow still lack musicianship AND the ability to teach. It's baffling.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-12-04 05:16
ClarinetRobt wrote:
> Guys these are amazing suggestions. I feel like I turn on a
> metronome in a lesson and he’s steady like a rock. Executing
> well. But in an actual performance situation it all goes out
> the window. He’s is own worst enemy.
>
Maybe he's over-dependent on the metronome and isn't developing a strong inner sense of pulse?
Karl
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Author: zhangray4
Date: 2017-12-04 07:46
Just a couple videos I would like to share regarding how to prepare for concerts and auditions. I agree with almost all the advices in the videos.
How to impress in auditions: https://youtu.be/SdAnogOKR0I
(really liked Stefan Schweigert, the second guy's, advice, since that is EXACTLY what I do. I tell my own story.)
How to prepare for concerts: https://youtu.be/oKIIDJOt7DA
I am a high school senior and has been in all state for the last 4 years, not planning to go for a 5th year however. For me, I was nervous my first few years. But later on, I did not feel nervous at all. I would play the audition music at home so much my tone-deaf dad started singing it. I played it while warming up in band and it would become familiar to most people in my band. And within a few months, I would be practicing the audition music without the actual music: I've memorized it already. I listen to the music wherever I go. By listening and playing the music wherever I go, it makes me feel that I can play the music whenever I want to for whoever wants to hear it.
I go in the audition room and play the pieces all by memory. Personally, I close my eyes so that I don't distracted by anything. [My friend once told me that she swear she saw the person motion her to stop out of the corner of her eyes, but when she stopped, they were confused. so she had to play from the beginning but she was nervous and didn't play as well]. And since I know I practiced all I could, I am not that nervous.
-- Ray Zhang
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-12-04 07:51
seabreeze - Thanks! Yes I think we all know this etude. Even after all of these years I think I can play it by memory! Hated it actually. Pretty boring. But it's actually pretty hard. I was looking through the 32 etudes. There's so many other nicer etudes in the books. I also hated the Brahms Sonata's but love the quintet. I enjoy the Spohr Concertos too but no one ever plays them.
I still stand behind what I said regarding thinking of what the piece reminds the player of. This will keep the player from rushing the easier passages and getting hung up on the articulation if you push it to 128 or something in that area, then have to slow down. Clear and really LIGHT articulation really makes the piece exciting. Also very strict attention to the rhythms. Maybe a very French approach to this piece. (Huge Hint to practice habits) Meaning the tongue should be almost touching the reed at all times to give you that light French attack to the reed. This can separate the good players from the very best player. To achieve this sometimes the player has to play just a note or 2 in just one measure to get this technique correct. Light, light, light articulation. This will also slow down the student when working on just a few notes at a time. Once he nails it correctly make him do it 5 times correctly.
I guess this is why I still know this by memory. The articulation drills over and over. The tongue hitting the reed so lightly with strong air flow through the horn.
Ask the student what it reminds him of. I know what I feel, but let the student find his way. Hope this will help his approach to the articulation, which I think is the key to making the piece light and lively. Oh, maybe try practicing on a shade softer reed at first. This prevents biting when articulating in the upper register, plus air flow.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-12-04 08:07
I have to add that the player Eric did OK, but if you read what I wrote above about getting louder and softer as the notes go up and down really make a huge difference. His dynamics were the same. No change. So he was playing the notes only. We have to see more than notes. Mozart saw beautiful dancers in my opinion in the slow movements. Also take note how hard Eric's tongue is pretty heavy in the lower registers. It's almost a German feel instead of a light French feel. So he gets about a B+ for a grade in my opinion. You have to keep the air moving. Some minor tempo issues, but I can live with those.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2017-12-04 08:52
Oh, well. I think Eric did a fine job. When it comes to interpreting Rose, there is no end of opinions. I went through the Rose 32 with Ron deKant when he was with the New Orleans Philharmonic. One of his best friends was fellow Bonade student Robert Listokin. Every summer, Ron and Robert would get together to critique each other's playing.
I learned from them that when Daniel Bonade was asked to record the Rose 32, he chose Listokin to play the etudes. Bonade hovered over Listokin like a helicopter parent, asking for his reed after nearly every take so he could "fix" it and giving coaching admonitions interspersed with cheerleading. deKant said that Bonade felt Listokin played the Rose 32 exactly according to Bonade's preferences. Perhaps a few years' earlier, Bonade would have had Mitchell Lurie or Robert Marcellus (his two favorite pupils) do the recording, but at the time, Listokin was his man.
Anyway, after these many years, someone has posted all of the Listokin performances of the Rose 32 on YouTube. I wish they would also post the wonderful recording of the Zampa solo with Bonade himself playing that was on the same recording.
Here, as a sample, are 4 of the Rose etudes that will probably be familiar to anyone who has studied them, as played by Robert Listokin under the very watchful eye of Bonade himself:
Rose 32--etudes 9, 10, 11, and 12. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAps4XbAnLo.
Comments anyone?
Post Edited (2017-12-04 09:45)
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Author: jonathan.wallaceadams
Date: 2017-12-04 10:12
My instructor has made me hum a song that's approx. 104 for the etude. Habanera from Carmen is 100. I can't rush Habenera mentally because the triplets keep me in check.
Just an aspiring student.
Buffet Tradition
Mpc.: Hawkins "G", Barrel: Moba, Reeds: Reserve 3.5+
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-12-04 10:51
Seabreeze, what a pleasure it was to hear that! That was an A+!
Lot's of emotion! That is what I was trying get write and there it was performed so well! You found it!
You mentioned my old dear friend Mitchell Lurie. Well read this -
Mitchell Lurie had a very French sound and feel for the horn. A very light tongue as well. A super man to know. We had a lot of dinners together when I worked at Rico and made his reeds. He did something unusual though and kept the tip of the reed just a shade higher than the tip on the mouthpiece. My guess is you could hardly hear him articulate.
One story that few are aware of - During WW2 when most of the great musicians were in the military bands Mitchell Lurie flew bombers! Yes he was a bomber in World War 2! Yet he is the nicest man you'd ever want to meet. Had the biggest heart too. Had to share this. Sure he could have been in the bands like Iggie Gennusa and Tony Gilliotti. Nope he flew bombers! He wasn't tall. 5'6" 140 pounds I guess. Glad he made it home.
He sadly had heart troubles. His first heart attack was only at 48 years old. That didn't stop him though. He lived until maybe 86 or so. Died of a stroke.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2017-12-04 11:17)
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Author: echi85
Date: 2017-12-04 18:03
To be fair, I put very little effort into these videos. They always come out during a self imposed hiatus from playing clarinet (the month of July). I agree that they usually come out ok, not great.
Dynamically, I have yet to find a microphone or recording level that can handle real highs and lows. It's either so soft that everything sounds far away or so loud that the top end starts maxing out the microphone.
I make these to help students who don't have access to a good teacher. The intention is to give students a platform in which they can hear what the music is supposed to sound like and the ask questions about how to play it. If you want to hear what I really put effort into, come hear a concert.
Post Edited (2017-12-04 18:03)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2017-12-04 18:52
have him hum the star spangled banner to himself before playing. Or any other tune that is VERY well known and is ingrained at 120 bpm.
Similar to how CPR is done to the song of "Stayin' Alive" by the bee gees, humming or thinking of an overly familiar song that has been internalized at a certain tempo helps to get your bearings before you begin.
So in practice, (or lessons), I would NOT let him use a metronome, YOU can have the metronome. Have him take a few seconds and think of a march or some song he knows very well that is about 120, and THEN start playing the etude. You can have the metronome and tap the tempo he's playing for an integrity check.
This'll also teach him to start using familiar tunes/songs as references for tempo markings for the future.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: brycon
Date: 2017-12-04 19:01
Getting back to the OP...
Quote:
Maybe he's over-dependent on the metronome and isn't developing a strong inner sense of pulse?
This is what I was thinking too. But if a student uses the metronome as a practice tool--e.g. playing with the metronome on offbeats or on beats 2 and 4 in 4/4--it forces him or her to internally subdivide and therefore build a sense of pulse.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-12-04 20:36
sfalexi wrote:
> have him hum the star spangled banner to himself before
> playing. Or any other tune that is VERY well known and is
> ingrained at 120 bpm.
>
True for you as a military bandsman. Civilians whose main exposure to the National Anthem comes at the beginnings of athletic events aren't so routined to hearing this at 120 b/m.
Karl
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2017-12-05 08:29
After reading this thread I dug out my Rose 40. Haven't seen it in years. It's not the Hite edition, it's part of the Collection Jacques Lancelot, two volumes edited by Gerard Billaudot.
The etude being discussed isn't #35 in this edition, it's #34. Tempo is marked as 112. There are quite a few other differences in expression markings.
Sigh, my first hour today was spent reading this and other pieces at random from these 40 and also the 32 (which is a different edition, Fischer).
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Author: Wes
Date: 2017-12-05 23:19
It sounded very bright, but that may be due to my computer sound system.
This post also brought back memories of Mitchell Lurie who I studied with when he was employed by a studio, RKO I think. We also worked a lot on the Perier etudes and the Brahms sonatas. The Rose studies were not used by my first teacher, the "very serious" Earl Handlon of the Minneapolis Symphony.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2017-12-07 04:57
Quote:
True for you as a military bandsman. Civilians whose main exposure to the National Anthem comes at the beginnings of athletic events aren't so routined to hearing this at 120 b/m.
Karl Totally hear you for the Star Spangled Banner. That's MY 120 bpm reference.
But for your student (maybe this didn't come across well in my past post), it might be worth delving into his favorite songs or even how he tends to sing or hum childhood songs (ABCs, God Bless America, Christmas Songs, etc.). If there's something deeply internalized at a specific tempo, find the tempo and have him start building an internal reference library for tempos (much like how people build references for interval leaps of seconds, thirds, tritones, etc).
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2017-12-08 09:55
"I make these to help students who don't have access to a good teacher. The intention is to give students a platform in which they can hear what the music is supposed to sound like and the ask questions about how to play it. If you want to hear what I really put effort into, come hear a concert."
You will likely never have a more attentive or impressionable audience. In my view they deserve your finest effort as much or more than anyone else does. Not looking to start a debate, just something I feel very strongly about as a teacher and wanted to share as another perspective.
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