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Klarinet Archive - Posting 000055.txt from 2002/05

From: "Stacy-Michelle" <>
Subj: RE: [kl] Bad behavior on eBay auctions
Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 23:29:11 -0400

great points!

>-- Original Message --
>Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 13:52:26 -0400
>From: efarmer <>
>Subject: RE: [kl] Bad behavior on eBay auctions
> The way to deal with it is to bid your max price, not $1 above=

>the last person, and if anyone bids above that- oh well, it is more than=

>you would be willing to pay for the item. So it really doesn't matter
>when they bid, if they were willing to pay more that you are for it so
>they will "win" the item. And really you do get a notice of a dead line-=

>it is the time the auction ends.
> The real reason this is done is to limit "shill" bidding. If you
>bid say $50 for an item that is at $10 now say 4 days before it ends, if=

>the seller is dishonest and has any other eBay ID's or friends on eBay
>they can slowly bid a dollar here and there and drive the price up.
>You'll see this as a lot of small bids from one or two people with no or=

>few feedback points, and the part I love is the points are often from
>that seller!! They use low feed back accounts because if eBay finds out
>they will close the account and they haven't lost much, and also it
>looks like beginners are bidding, since they never want to bid their max=

>at the beginning. It is VERY hard to prove the seller was part of the
>game. The eBay and the police won't look into it unless it involves big
>money, and even then it is very hard to prove. That was Sotheby's
>executives A. Alfred Taubmans' mistake-- he made millions of dollars,
>abet in a different scam. Remember they are not willing to
>actually buy the item, just trying to drive the price up, but if they do=

>top your max price playing this game, well, some outcomes are:
> 1. You'll bid again, and they got the price up higher then
>anyone else was willing to pay.. they win. (Since what an auction needs
>to work is at least two people willing to pay for an item - if you only
>have one bidder the price won't go up- even if that one bidder was
>willing to pay more.)
> 2. It ends with the shill bid as the top bid by one dollar, and
>the seller writes you that the top bidder backed out of the deal but
>they are willing to sell to you the 2nd highest bidder for you last bid.=

>If you buy at that price -they still win, the price is much higher than
>if the shill bids were not placed. It should at the least go back to the=

>price before the shill bidder started, but they never want to do that!
> 3. Just re list the item in a few weeks (saying they found
>another one and this one is in better shape then the last one, may even
>write you -since you got outbid on the last one, how nice of them!) and=

>now if you bid again they have a really good idea how much you'll pay
>don't they? This time they won't overbid with the shills.
>They win again.
> So how do limit this problem? Well you could limit the time
>they'd have to play games by ..... welll..... aaa..... bidding
>near the end of the auction? Oh wait that is what you don't like isn't
>it? Sorry, but this shill business is where that whole late bidding
>problem comes from, and oh this last second bidding is called "snipeing"=

>if you want to read about it on the web. There are at least 4 or 5
>companies making software to do sniping. They work quite well in fact,
>most can get the 1st bids to show up 30 to 10 seconds before the end, as=

>you've found out.
> Some other auction sites do have a any bids in the last 15
>minutes will continue the auction rule, but then ( if your not willing
>to bid your max in the 1st place) it can become an endurance game, are
>you willing to stay up later countering their bids? Because they can
>also counter each of your bids, I've seen them add 8 to 48 hours to the
>closing time. And you still get shill bidding.
> The last second bidding also happens at live auctions if you
>really watch them, the "winner" jumps in at the very end only, they
>don't generally start the bidding. And they do have shills, how often I
>don't really know.
> So, your choices are not to play on eBay or like I said at the
>top, bid your max, some where near the end of the auction (as close as
>you feel is "fair") and accept that any increases in price after that
>may or may not be legit. Generally eBay is a fair, real auction but
>sometimes people play games on it, all you can do is protect your self
>as much as possible.
> Edward
>-----Original Message-----
>Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 11:28 AM
>Subject: [kl] Bad behavior on eBay auctions
>I just sent this e-mail to eBay, reporting what I consider actions of
>very dubious morality:
><<I want to report some behavior which will, if it continues, stop me
>from buying on eBay.
>Twice in recent auctions, I was out bid, in the last 20 seconds of the
>auction, by someone who had never bid before.
>By the time one notices this, even when hitting the F5 key repeatedly,
>to refresh the screen every 5 seconds or so. It is too late to bid
>Surely this is NOT what was intended when your service was put into
>place. A real auction has a "going, going, Gone" warning for serious
>This lurking behavior, bidding only in the last few seconds, I view as
>immoral, dishonest and disgusting.
>I think that eBay needs to find a way to block this kind of behavior.
>Walter Grabner
>I know some people think this is smart or clever behavior, but it is
>really p*****g ne off! Has anyone else had this experience, and if so,
>what have you done?


Stacy-Michelle Valentine

"Music is your own experience, your own thoughts, your wisdom. If you don=
live it, it won't come out of your horn. They teach you there's a boundar=
line to music. But, man, there's no boundary line to art."
- Charlie Parker

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