Klarinet Archive - Posting 000172.txt from 2011/08

From: "Forest Aten" <forestaten@-----.com>
Subj: Re: [kl] Klarinet Digest, Vol 18, Issue 28
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 11:16:30 -0400

Barrie

The "foam" in the Valentino pad is a type of neoprene.....with a viton cover. The cover does two things: 1 allows a
reliable seat to the clarinet tone hole, 2. Seals extremely well

Forest

> -----Original Message-----
> From: grant barrie [mailto:bionic.baz@-----.uk]
> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 10:10 AM
> To: klarinet@-----.com
> Subject: Re: [kl] Klarinet Digest, Vol 18, Issue 28
>
> Hi, Is there any reason that you could not use Neoprene rubber? It is used
> in many engineering valves that use very much higher pressure than the lungs
> can produce.
>
>
> Barrie
>
> On 19 August 2011 13:42, <klarinet-request@-----.com> wrote:
>
> > Send Klarinet mailing list submissions to
> > klarinet@-----.com
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > http://lists.serve-music.com/mailman/listinfo/klarinet
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > klarinet-request@-----.com
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > klarinet-owner@-----.com
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of Klarinet digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: Rant against a trend in pad work (sfdr@-----.com)
> > 2. Re: Rant against a trend in pad work (Forest Aten)
> > 3. Re: Rant against a trend in pad work (Keith Bowen)
> > 4. Re: Rant against a trend in pad work (sfdr@-----.com)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 20:26:42 -0400 (EDT)
> > From: sfdr@-----.com
> > Subject: Re: [kl] Rant against a trend in pad work
> > To: klarinet@-----.com
> > Message-ID: <8CE2C1DCDE07B4A-19FC-3314E@-----.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > Hi Forest,
> > I have overhauled over 3,000 clarinets in my career as a repairman. As an
> > apprentice, I watched Hans Moennig Overhaul instruments for Robert
> > Marcellus, Harold Wright and David Weber. He always used handmade cork pads
> > on the top joint and double skinned bladder pads on the lower joints made
> > with compressed felt. He tested his work by closing all of the tone holes
> > and pulling a lip vacuum on the joints. Mr. Moennig would then walk across
> > the room numerous times to see how long it would take for the the vacuum to
> > to dissipate. The cork pad Moennig overhaul vacuum usually lasted two or
> > three minutes. He felt that a good pad seat in cork would improve over time
> > and last for many years. However, pads made of foam like material have a
> > tendency to loose their seat over time. This three minute vacuum standard is
> > the one that I have used throughout my career.
> > I have seen the Lohff vinyl pad as well as the Valentino pads. In my
> > experience, they tend to collapse, shrink and loose their shape after six
> > months of playing. I have also had problems with getting them to seal for
> > more than 15 seconds. I inherited two clarinets that once belonged to Ralph
> > McLane. These instruments were overhauled by Hans Moennig in 1950. After all
> > these years, they still will hold a 90 second vacuum.
> >
> >
> > Just another opinion,
> >
> >
> > Alvin Swiney
> > 3126 W Cary St. #237
> > Richmond, VA 23221
> > sfdr@-----.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Forest Aten <forestaten@-----.com>
> > To: 'The Klarinet Mailing List' <klarinet@-----.com>
> > Sent: Thu, Aug 18, 2011 10:41 am
> > Subject: Re: [kl] Rant against a trend in pad work
> >
> >
> > Clark
> >
> > I haven't experienced the things you describe in/on my synthetic pad
> > clarinets.
> > I do all of my own pad/repair work and
> > have all (about 15) clarinets done in Valentino pads. They are tight and
> > the
> > sound off the pads even and clean. I have
> > no issues with legato playing, using synthetic pads. Also, because the pads
> > seal
> > so very well, technique is cleaner and
> > sound is quicker out the instrument. And the work is "clean". :-)
> > I use Valentino's on my bass as well....but only up to 20mm pads. Anything
> > larger are extremely difficult to seat and
> > the pad slap is not acceptable.
> >
> > Your comment about "easier to install" might be misleading. When moving
> > from
> > traditional pads to the "stiff" Greenback
> > Valentino pad, it requires complete removal of all key work, this to ensure
> > absolute clean pad cups at installation.
> > This takes a lot of time. In addition, the placement of the pad in the cup
> > and
> > adjustment of key work to "get it
> > right"....takes careful consideration....just as careful as using
> > traditional
> > pads. In some cases, it's better to use
> > the traditional Valentino and use the traditional "float" method.
> >
> > I have never experienced "noise" from a Valentino pad...or perhaps I should
> > say,
> > "not any more noise than from a
> > traditional felt/bladder pad".
> >
> > All Valentino pads that I've ever used, have very stiff cardboard backing.
> > ????
> > I don't understand your "eventually
> > creep up into any gaps" statement??
> >
> > I'll sure agree with your observation about the lack of "artist level
> > repair
> > work". Not much of that going on....
> >
> > Forest
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Clark Fobes [mailto:claroneman@-----.net]
> > > Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 11:40 AM
> > > To: klarinet@-----.com
> > > Subject: [kl] Rant against a trend in pad work
> > >
> > > I so rarely post to the Klarinet any more, but I have been seeing a
> > disturbing
> > trend in clarinet
> > > repair that I want to address. This is the use of synthetic pads for ALL
> > pads
> > on the clarinet.
> > >
> > > I want to say first that I am not against the use of synthetic pads
> > entirely-
> > they have a use,
> > > particularly in the upper joint pads of the bass clarinet. They are
> > probably
> > a good idea for student
> > > instruments that receive a lot of abuse. But for professional level
> > clarinets
> > I only use them in two
> > > places: the Ab/Eb pad on the lower joint and the F# ring key pad on the
> > upper
> > joint (opens over the
> > > throat G tone hole). Synthetic pads are not a good choice for pads that
> > are
> > sprung open.
> > >
> > > Here are several reasons. Once synthetic pads are seated they have almost
> > no
> > give at all. In the case
> > > of the long E/B of the lower joint, this can cause leaks unless the
> > mechanism
> > has absolutely no play
> > > and the F/C and E/B pads are in perfect synch. Because synthetic pads
> > have
> > almost no "give" or
> > > "cushion" they slap the tone hole and it is virtually impossible to make
> > a
> > good legato when slurring
> > > from G/D to E/B. The very crisp edge of the pads create turbulence and
> > noise
> > unless the pad is
> > > adjusted very high from the tone hole, which changes the pitch (towards
> > sharpness) and creates too
> > > much distance for facile playing. And finally, most of the synthetic pads
> > I
> > have seen do not have a
> > > stiff backing, consequently the pad cup must be filled with glue
> > completely
> > (that technique seems to
> > > escape most repair men) other wise the synthetic pad will eventually
> > creep up
> > into any gaps in the
> > > glue and will eventually leak.
> > >
> > > A good pad job should be quiet, have a soft feel and look CLEAN.
> > >
> > > I understand the trend. Synthetic pads are much easier to install than
> > traditional pads and do not
> > > require the skill or the sensitivity required to "float" a skin or
> > leather pad
> > and the job can be done
> > > faster.
> > >
> > > I am distressed at the lack of artist level repair work in general. I
> > hope
> > that players will start
> > > looking more carefully at the work they are paying for and demand a
> > higher
> > standard.
> > >
> > > Clark W Fobes
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Klarinet mailing list
> > > Klarinet@-----.com
> > > To do darn near anything to your subscription, go to:
> > > http://klarinet-list.serve-music.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Klarinet mailing list
> > Klarinet@-----.com
> > To do darn near anything to your subscription, go to:
> > http://klarinet-list.serve-music.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 21:54:34 -0500
> > From: "Forest Aten" <forestaten@-----.com>
> > Subject: Re: [kl] Rant against a trend in pad work
> > To: "'The Klarinet Mailing List'" <klarinet@-----.com>
> > Message-ID: <0a4d01cc5e1b$53b91c30$fb2b5490$@-----.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > Alvin
> >
> > I've had Valentino pads on several of my clarinets for over seven years
> > now, without a change in pad or single issue.
> > I've never had shrinkage or change in shape in any Valentino pad. I use my
> > clarinets very hard. (Six hour opera
> > rehearsal days plus teaching/practice.) In my experience, the vacuum in the
> > synthetic pad is always much better than any
> > cork pad I've ever seen/used (and I've owned two Moennig Buffet R13s,
> > worked on by Moennig). I used to take lots of time
> > seating cork pads on upper joints and had good success but the Valentino
> > has always worked better for me. My Valentino
> > padded clarinets have the best seal I've ever experienced.
> > I have no direct knowledge or experience with Lohff's pad.
> >
> > Forest
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: sfdr@-----.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 7:27 PM
> > > To: klarinet@-----.com
> > > Subject: Re: [kl] Rant against a trend in pad work
> > >
> > > Hi Forest,
> > > I have overhauled over 3,000 clarinets in my career as a repairman. As
> > an apprentice, I watched
> > > Hans Moennig Overhaul instruments for Robert Marcellus, Harold Wright
> > and David Weber. He always used
> > > handmade cork pads on the top joint and double skinned bladder pads on
> > the lower joints made with
> > > compressed felt. He tested his work by closing all of the tone holes and
> > pulling a lip vacuum on the
> > > joints. Mr. Moennig would then walk across the room numerous times to
> > see how long it would take for
> > > the the vacuum to to dissipate. The cork pad Moennig overhaul vacuum
> > usually lasted two or three
> > > minutes. He felt that a good pad seat in cork would improve over time and
> > last for many years.
> > > However, pads made of foam like material have a tendency to loose their
> > seat over time. This three
> > > minute vacuum standard is the one that I have used throughout my career.
> > > I have seen the Lohff vinyl pad as well as the Valentino pads. In my
> > experience, they tend to
> > > collapse, shrink and loose their shape after six months of playing. I
> > have also had problems with
> > > getting them to seal for more than 15 seconds. I inherited two clarinets
> > that once belonged to Ralph
> > > McLane. These instruments were overhauled by Hans Moennig in 1950. After
> > all these years, they still
> > > will hold a 90 second vacuum.
> > >
> > >
> > > Just another opinion,
> > >
> > >
> > > Alvin Swiney
> > > 3126 W Cary St. #237
> > > Richmond, VA 23221
> > > sfdr@-----.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Forest Aten <forestaten@-----.com>
> > > To: 'The Klarinet Mailing List' <klarinet@-----.com>
> > > Sent: Thu, Aug 18, 2011 10:41 am
> > > Subject: Re: [kl] Rant against a trend in pad work
> > >
> > >
> > > Clark
> > >
> > > I haven't experienced the things you describe in/on my synthetic pad
> > clarinets.
> > > I do all of my own pad/repair work and
> > > have all (about 15) clarinets done in Valentino pads. They are tight and
> > the
> > > sound off the pads even and clean. I have
> > > no issues with legato playing, using synthetic pads. Also, because the
> > pads seal
> > > so very well, technique is cleaner and
> > > sound is quicker out the instrument. And the work is "clean". :-)
> > > I use Valentino's on my bass as well....but only up to 20mm pads.
> > Anything
> > > larger are extremely difficult to seat and
> > > the pad slap is not acceptable.
> > >
> > > Your comment about "easier to install" might be misleading. When moving
> > from
> > > traditional pads to the "stiff" Greenback
> > > Valentino pad, it requires complete removal of all key work, this to
> > ensure
> > > absolute clean pad cups at installation.
> > > This takes a lot of time. In addition, the placement of the pad in the
> > cup and
> > > adjustment of key work to "get it
> > > right"....takes careful consideration....just as careful as using
> > traditional
> > > pads. In some cases, it's better to use
> > > the traditional Valentino and use the traditional "float" method.
> > >
> > > I have never experienced "noise" from a Valentino pad...or perhaps I
> > should say,
> > > "not any more noise than from a
> > > traditional felt/bladder pad".
> > >
> > > All Valentino pads that I've ever used, have very stiff cardboard
> > backing. ????
> > > I don't understand your "eventually
> > > creep up into any gaps" statement??
> > >
> > > I'll sure agree with your observation about the lack of "artist level
> > repair
> > > work". Not much of that going on....
> > >
> > > Forest
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Clark Fobes [mailto:claroneman@-----.net]
> > > > Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 11:40 AM
> > > > To: klarinet@-----.com
> > > > Subject: [kl] Rant against a trend in pad work
> > > >
> > > > I so rarely post to the Klarinet any more, but I have been seeing a
> > disturbing
> > > trend in clarinet
> > > > repair that I want to address. This is the use of synthetic pads for
> > ALL pads
> > > on the clarinet.
> > > >
> > > > I want to say first that I am not against the use of synthetic pads
> > entirely-
> > > they have a use,
> > > > particularly in the upper joint pads of the bass clarinet. They are
> > probably
> > > a good idea for student
> > > > instruments that receive a lot of abuse. But for professional level
> > clarinets
> > > I only use them in two
> > > > places: the Ab/Eb pad on the lower joint and the F# ring key pad on
> > the upper
> > > joint (opens over the
> > > > throat G tone hole). Synthetic pads are not a good choice for pads that
> > are
> > > sprung open.
> > > >
> > > > Here are several reasons. Once synthetic pads are seated they have
> > almost no
> > > give at all. In the case
> > > > of the long E/B of the lower joint, this can cause leaks unless the
> > mechanism
> > > has absolutely no play
> > > > and the F/C and E/B pads are in perfect synch. Because synthetic pads
> > have
> > > almost no "give" or
> > > > "cushion" they slap the tone hole and it is virtually impossible to
> > make a
> > > good legato when slurring
> > > > from G/D to E/B. The very crisp edge of the pads create turbulence and
> > noise
> > > unless the pad is
> > > > adjusted very high from the tone hole, which changes the pitch (towards
> > > sharpness) and creates too
> > > > much distance for facile playing. And finally, most of the synthetic
> > pads I
> > > have seen do not have a
> > > > stiff backing, consequently the pad cup must be filled with glue
> > completely
> > > (that technique seems to
> > > > escape most repair men) other wise the synthetic pad will eventually
> > creep up
> > > into any gaps in the
> > > > glue and will eventually leak.
> > > >
> > > > A good pad job should be quiet, have a soft feel and look CLEAN.
> > > >
> > > > I understand the trend. Synthetic pads are much easier to install than
> > > traditional pads and do not
> > > > require the skill or the sensitivity required to "float" a skin or
> > leather pad
> > > and the job can be done
> > > > faster.
> > > >
> > > > I am distressed at the lack of artist level repair work in general. I
> > hope
> > > that players will start
> > > > looking more carefully at the work they are paying for and demand a
> > higher
> > > standard.
> > > >
> > > > Clark W Fobes
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Klarinet mailing list
> > > > Klarinet@-----.com
> > > > To do darn near anything to your subscription, go to:
> > > > http://klarinet-list.serve-music.com
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Klarinet mailing list
> > > Klarinet@-----.com
> > > To do darn near anything to your subscription, go to:
> > > http://klarinet-list.serve-music.com
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Klarinet mailing list
> > > Klarinet@-----.com
> > > To do darn near anything to your subscription, go to:
> > > http://klarinet-list.serve-music.com
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 10:10:54 +0100
> > From: "Keith Bowen" <keith.bowen@-----.com>
> > Subject: Re: [kl] Rant against a trend in pad work
> > To: "'The Klarinet Mailing List'" <klarinet@-----.com>
> > Message-ID: <002b01cc5e4f$e65f14c0$b31d3e40$@-----.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > The problem with the vacuum test (besides being very unquantitative - how
> > hard can you suck? What's the finger pressure? At what pressure do you
> > judge
> > it has failed?) is that it is pushing the wrong way. Sucking will obviously
> > improve a seal, but blowing will find any leaks that are masked by the
> > sucking.
> >
> > A better test for leaks, now available, is a gentle blowing pressure,
> > analogous to actual playing. The Magnehelic tester does just that. (See for
> > example
> >
> > http://www.jlsmithco.com/LEAK-LOCATING/236044EU-MAG-MACHINE-EUROPEAN-VERSION
> > ). This is even sensitive enough to tell the difference between the sealing
> > qualities of dry and wet fingers.
> >
> > Using this tester I am able to fit synthetic Valentino pads (regular or
> > Master) to as good or better seal than leather pads that have been fitted
> > by
> > the best German manufacturers. Like Forest, my experience is that the
> > longevity is far better than bladder pads and probably similar to cork and
> > a
> > little better than leather.
> >
> > I've only had my Lohff pads for about six months though they have shown no
> > signs of deterioration. However I have seen instruments that have had years
> > of hard professional use with no problems.
> >
> > Valentino pads will conveniently bed in if heated gently after fitting. But
> > this is no longer the recommended method; rather, they should be fitted and
> > floated just as a trad pad. Once again I reiterate that good quality,
> > well-adjusted keywork is essential. We are not talking student clarinets.
> > Nor are we talking about soft, spongy pads that take up all the leaks, for
> > a
> > time.
> >
> > Keith Bowen
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: sfdr@-----.com]
> > Sent: 19 August 2011 01:27
> > To: klarinet@-----.com
> > Subject: Re: [kl] Rant against a trend in pad work
> >
> > Hi Forest,
> > I have overhauled over 3,000 clarinets in my career as a repairman. As an
> > apprentice, I watched Hans Moennig Overhaul instruments for Robert
> > Marcellus, Harold Wright and David Weber. He always used handmade cork pads
> > on the top joint and double skinned bladder pads on the lower joints made
> > with compressed felt. He tested his work by closing all of the tone holes
> > and pulling a lip vacuum on the joints. Mr. Moennig would then walk across
> > the room numerous times to see how long it would take for the the vacuum
> > to
> > to dissipate. The cork pad Moennig overhaul vacuum usually lasted two or
> > three minutes. He felt that a good pad seat in cork would improve over time
> > and last for many years. However, pads made of foam like material have a
> > tendency to loose their seat over time. This three minute vacuum standard
> > is
> > the one that I have used throughout my career.
> > I have seen the Lohff vinyl pad as well as the Valentino pads. In my
> > experience, they tend to collapse, shrink and loose their shape after six
> > months of playing. I have also had problems with getting them to seal for
> > more than 15 seconds. I inherited two clarinets that once belonged to Ralph
> > McLane. These instruments were overhauled by Hans Moennig in 1950. After
> > all
> > these years, they still will hold a 90 second vacuum.
> >
> >
> > Just another opinion,
> >
> >
> > Alvin Swiney
> > 3126 W Cary St. #237
> > Richmond, VA 23221
> > sfdr@-----.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Forest Aten <forestaten@-----.com>
> > To: 'The Klarinet Mailing List' <klarinet@-----.com>
> > Sent: Thu, Aug 18, 2011 10:41 am
> > Subject: Re: [kl] Rant against a trend in pad work
> >
> >
> > Clark
> >
> > I haven't experienced the things you describe in/on my synthetic pad
> > clarinets.
> > I do all of my own pad/repair work and
> > have all (about 15) clarinets done in Valentino pads. They are tight and
> > the
> >
> > sound off the pads even and clean. I have
> > no issues with legato playing, using synthetic pads. Also, because the pads
> > seal
> > so very well, technique is cleaner and
> > sound is quicker out the instrument. And the work is "clean". :-)
> > I use Valentino's on my bass as well....but only up to 20mm pads. Anything
> > larger are extremely difficult to seat and
> > the pad slap is not acceptable.
> >
> > Your comment about "easier to install" might be misleading. When moving
> > from
> >
> > traditional pads to the "stiff" Greenback
> > Valentino pad, it requires complete removal of all key work, this to ensure
> > absolute clean pad cups at installation.
> > This takes a lot of time. In addition, the placement of the pad in the cup
> > and
> > adjustment of key work to "get it
> > right"....takes careful consideration....just as careful as using
> > traditional
> > pads. In some cases, it's better to use
> > the traditional Valentino and use the traditional "float" method.
> >
> > I have never experienced "noise" from a Valentino pad...or perhaps I should
> > say,
> > "not any more noise than from a
> > traditional felt/bladder pad".
> >
> > All Valentino pads that I've ever used, have very stiff cardboard backing.
> > ????
> > I don't understand your "eventually
> > creep up into any gaps" statement??
> >
> > I'll sure agree with your observation about the lack of "artist level
> > repair
> >
> > work". Not much of that going on....
> >
> > Forest
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Clark Fobes [mailto:claroneman@-----.net]
> > > Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 11:40 AM
> > > To: klarinet@-----.com
> > > Subject: [kl] Rant against a trend in pad work
> > >
> > > I so rarely post to the Klarinet any more, but I have been seeing a
> > disturbing
> > trend in clarinet
> > > repair that I want to address. This is the use of synthetic pads for ALL
> > pads
> > on the clarinet.
> > >
> > > I want to say first that I am not against the use of synthetic pads
> > entirely-
> > they have a use,
> > > particularly in the upper joint pads of the bass clarinet. They are
> > probably
> > a good idea for student
> > > instruments that receive a lot of abuse. But for professional level
> > clarinets
> > I only use them in two
> > > places: the Ab/Eb pad on the lower joint and the F# ring key pad on the
> > upper
> > joint (opens over the
> > > throat G tone hole). Synthetic pads are not a good choice for pads that
> > are
> > sprung open.
> > >
> > > Here are several reasons. Once synthetic pads are seated they have almost
> > no
> > give at all. In the case
> > > of the long E/B of the lower joint, this can cause leaks unless the
> > mechanism
> > has absolutely no play
> > > and the F/C and E/B pads are in perfect synch. Because synthetic pads
> > have
> >
> > almost no "give" or
> > > "cushion" they slap the tone hole and it is virtually impossible to make
> > a
> >
> > good legato when slurring
> > > from G/D to E/B. The very crisp edge of the pads create turbulence and
> > noise
> > unless the pad is
> > > adjusted very high from the tone hole, which changes the pitch (towards
> > sharpness) and creates too
> > > much distance for facile playing. And finally, most of the synthetic pads
> > I
> > have seen do not have a
> > > stiff backing, consequently the pad cup must be filled with glue
> > completely
> > (that technique seems to
> > > escape most repair men) other wise the synthetic pad will eventually
> > creep
> > up
> > into any gaps in the
> > > glue and will eventually leak.
> > >
> > > A good pad job should be quiet, have a soft feel and look CLEAN.
> > >
> > > I understand the trend. Synthetic pads are much easier to install than
> > traditional pads and do not
> > > require the skill or the sensitivity required to "float" a skin or
> > leather
> > pad
> > and the job can be done
> > > faster.
> > >
> > > I am distressed at the lack of artist level repair work in general. I
> > hope
> >
> > that players will start
> > > looking more carefully at the work they are paying for and demand a
> > higher
> >
> > standard.
> > >
> > > Clark W Fobes
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Klarinet mailing list
> > > Klarinet@-----.com
> > > To do darn near anything to your subscription, go to:
> > > http://klarinet-list.serve-music.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Klarinet mailing list
> > Klarinet@-----.com
> > To do darn near anything to your subscription, go to:
> > http://klarinet-list.serve-music.com
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Klarinet mailing list
> > Klarinet@-----.com
> > To do darn near anything to your subscription, go to:
> > http://klarinet-list.serve-music.com
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 08:42:26 -0400 (EDT)
> > From: sfdr@-----.com
> > Subject: Re: [kl] Rant against a trend in pad work
> > To: klarinet@-----.com
> > Message-ID: <8CE2C849560D253-19FC-39B0E@-----.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> >
> > Hi Keith,
> > I purchased my first Magnehelic testing machine in 1978 from Hugh cooper
> > and Bob Williams of the Detroit Symphony.
> > When I saw my former apprentice Wolfgang Lohff a few months ago, he showed
> > me a Buffter R-13 with the new pads
> > that he had invented. I was quite curious so I took a Moennig style cork
> > pad clarinet and plugged the finger holes and
> > lower tenon of the top joint with test tube corks. I used corks to
> > eliminate the finger pressure factor. I then took a Lohff
> > pad clarinet and plugged it in the same manner. When I tried to pull a soft
> > vacuum on the Lohff clarinet I got no suction
> > at all. However when I pulled a soft vacuum on the cork pad clarinet, the
> > vacuum lasted for 2 minutes.
> > I have never used Valentino pads because they remind me of paper dolls.
> > They come on a big sheet and you have to
> > punch them out. In the German-Moennig school of padding, the pad should
> > always rest on the rim of the the key cup for
> > support. The trouble with straight or trianglular shaped pads if that that
> > are only attached on the bottom surface so the
> > edges are left exposed and dangling. This exposed pad edge tends to curl
> > and warp over time.
> > Do you know what type of pads Anthony Gigliotti or Stanley Hasty used?
> > Just wondering?
> >
> >
> > Alvin Swiney
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Keith Bowen <keith.bowen@-----.com>
> > To: 'The Klarinet Mailing List' <klarinet@-----.com>
> > Sent: Fri, Aug 19, 2011 1:11 am
> > Subject: Re: [kl] Rant against a trend in pad work
> >
> >
> > The problem with the vacuum test (besides being very unquantitative - how
> > hard can you suck? What's the finger pressure? At what pressure do you
> > judge
> > it has failed?) is that it is pushing the wrong way. Sucking will obviously
> > improve a seal, but blowing will find any leaks that are masked by the
> > sucking.
> >
> > A better test for leaks, now available, is a gentle blowing pressure,
> > analogous to actual playing. The Magnehelic tester does just that. (See for
> > example
> >
> > http://www.jlsmithco.com/LEAK-LOCATING/236044EU-MAG-MACHINE-EUROPEAN-VERSION
> > ). This is even sensitive enough to tell the difference between the sealing
> > qualities of dry and wet fingers.
> >
> > Using this tester I am able to fit synthetic Valentino pads (regular or
> > Master) to as good or better seal than leather pads that have been fitted
> > by
> > the best German manufacturers. Like Forest, my experience is that the
> > longevity is far better than bladder pads and probably similar to cork and
> > a
> > little better than leather.
> >
> > I've only had my Lohff pads for about six months though they have shown no
> > signs of deterioration. However I have seen instruments that have had years
> > of hard professional use with no problems.
> >
> > Valentino pads will conveniently bed in if heated gently after fitting. But
> > this is no longer the recommended method; rather, they should be fitted and
> > floated just as a trad pad. Once again I reiterate that good quality,
> > well-adjusted keywork is essential. We are not talking student clarinets.
> > Nor are we talking about soft, spongy pads that take up all the leaks, for
> > a
> > time.
> >
> > Keith Bowen
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: sfdr@-----.com]
> > Sent: 19 August 2011 01:27
> > To: klarinet@-----.com
> > Subject: Re: [kl] Rant against a trend in pad work
> >
> > Hi Forest,
> > I have overhauled over 3,000 clarinets in my career as a repairman. As an
> > apprentice, I watched Hans Moennig Overhaul instruments for Robert
> > Marcellus, Harold Wright and David Weber. He always used handmade cork pads
> > on the top joint and double skinned bladder pads on the lower joints made
> > with compressed felt. He tested his work by closing all of the tone holes
> > and pulling a lip vacuum on the joints. Mr. Moennig would then walk across
> > the room numerous times to see how long it would take for the the vacuum
> > to
> > to dissipate. The cork pad Moennig overhaul vacuum usually lasted two or
> > three minutes. He felt that a good pad seat in cork would improve over time
> > and last for many years. However, pads made of foam like material have a
> > tendency to loose their seat over time. This three minute vacuum standard
> > is
> > the one that I have used throughout my career.
> > I have seen the Lohff vinyl pad as well as the Valentino pads. In my
> > experience, they tend to collapse, shrink and loose their shape after six
> > months of playing. I have also had problems with getting them to seal for
> > more than 15 seconds. I inherited two clarinets that once belonged to Ralph
> > McLane. These instruments were overhauled by Hans Moennig in 1950. After
> > all
> > these years, they still will hold a 90 second vacuum.
> >
> >
> > Just another opinion,
> >
> >
> > Alvin Swiney
> > 3126 W Cary St. #237
> > Richmond, VA 23221
> > sfdr@-----.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Forest Aten <forestaten@-----.com>
> > To: 'The Klarinet Mailing List' <klarinet@-----.com>
> > Sent: Thu, Aug 18, 2011 10:41 am
> > Subject: Re: [kl] Rant against a trend in pad work
> >
> >
> > Clark
> >
> > I haven't experienced the things you describe in/on my synthetic pad
> > clarinets.
> > I do all of my own pad/repair work and
> > have all (about 15) clarinets done in Valentino pads. They are tight and
> > the
> >
> > sound off the pads even and clean. I have
> > no issues with legato playing, using synthetic pads. Also, because the pads
> > seal
> > so very well, technique is cleaner and
> > sound is quicker out the instrument. And the work is "clean". :-)
> > I use Valentino's on my bass as well....but only up to 20mm pads. Anything
> > larger are extremely difficult to seat and
> > the pad slap is not acceptable.
> >
> > Your comment about "easier to install" might be misleading. When moving
> > from
> >
> > traditional pads to the "stiff" Greenback
> > Valentino pad, it requires complete removal of all key work, this to ensure
> > absolute clean pad cups at installation.
> > This takes a lot of time. In addition, the placement of the pad in the cup
> > and
> > adjustment of key work to "get it
> > right"....takes careful consideration....just as careful as using
> > traditional
> > pads. In some cases, it's better to use
> > the traditional Valentino and use the traditional "float" method.
> >
> > I have never experienced "noise" from a Valentino pad...or perhaps I should
> > say,
> > "not any more noise than from a
> > traditional felt/bladder pad".
> >
> > All Valentino pads that I've ever used, have very stiff cardboard backing.
> > ????
> > I don't understand your "eventually
> > creep up into any gaps" statement??
> >
> > I'll sure agree with your observation about the lack of "artist level
> > repair
> >
> > work". Not much of that going on....
> >
> > Forest
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Clark Fobes [mailto:claroneman@-----.net]
> > > Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 11:40 AM
> > > To: klarinet@-----.com
> > > Subject: [kl] Rant against a trend in pad work
> > >
> > > I so rarely post to the Klarinet any more, but I have been seeing a
> > disturbing
> > trend in clarinet
> > > repair that I want to address. This is the use of synthetic pads for ALL
> > pads
> > on the clarinet.
> > >
> > > I want to say first that I am not against the use of synthetic pads
> > entirely-
> > they have a use,
> > > particularly in the upper joint pads of the bass clarinet. They are
> > probably
> > a good idea for student
> > > instruments that receive a lot of abuse. But for professional level
> > clarinets
> > I only use them in two
> > > places: the Ab/Eb pad on the lower joint and the F# ring key pad on the
> > upper
> > joint (opens over the
> > > throat G tone hole). Synthetic pads are not a good choice for pads that
> > are
> > sprung open.
> > >
> > > Here are several reasons. Once synthetic pads are seated they have almost
> > no
> > give at all. In the case
> > > of the long E/B of the lower joint, this can cause leaks unless the
> > mechanism
> > has absolutely no play
> > > and the F/C and E/B pads are in perfect synch. Because synthetic pads
> > have
> >
> > almost no "give" or
> > > "cushion" they slap the tone hole and it is virtually impossible to make
> > a
> >
> > good legato when slurring
> > > from G/D to E/B. The very crisp edge of the pads create turbulence and
> > noise
> > unless the pad is
> > > adjusted very high from the tone hole, which changes the pitch (towards
> > sharpness) and creates too
> > > much distance for facile playing. And finally, most of the synthetic pads
> > I
> > have seen do not have a
> > > stiff backing, consequently the pad cup must be filled with glue
> > completely
> > (that technique seems to
> > > escape most repair men) other wise the synthetic pad will eventually
> > creep
> > up
> > into any gaps in the
> > > glue and will eventually leak.
> > >
> > > A good pad job should be quiet, have a soft feel and look CLEAN.
> > >
> > > I understand the trend. Synthetic pads are much easier to install than
> > traditional pads and do not
> > > require the skill or the sensitivity required to "float" a skin or
> > leather
> > pad
> > and the job can be done
> > > faster.
> > >
> > > I am distressed at the lack of artist level repair work in general. I
> > hope
> >
> > that players will start
> > > looking more carefully at the work they are paying for and demand a
> > higher
> >
> > standard.
> > >
> > > Clark W Fobes
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Klarinet mailing list
> > > Klarinet@-----.com
> > > To do darn near anything to your subscription, go to:
> > > http://klarinet-list.serve-music.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Klarinet mailing list
> > Klarinet@-----.com
> > To do darn near anything to your subscription, go to:
> > http://klarinet-list.serve-music.com
> >
> >
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> >
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
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> > End of Klarinet Digest, Vol 18, Issue 28
> > ****************************************
> >
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