Klarinet Archive - Posting 000166.txt from 2011/08
From: "Forest Aten" <forestaten@-----.com>
Subj: Re: [kl] Rant against a trend in pad work
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 09:28:30 -0400
Alvin
Ah...that would explain it! Try here for info on Valentino... http://www.jlsmithco.com/INFO-VALENTINO-PADS
Best
Forest
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sfdr@-----.com]
> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 8:27 AM
> To: klarinet@-----.com
> Cc: sfdr@-----.com
> Subject: Re: [kl] Rant against a trend in pad work
>
> Forest,
> Sorry, I must have been mistaken. Perhaps this the junk that I was stinking of:
>
>
> http://www.free-scores.com/boutique/boutique-uk-frame-eur-acc.php?clef=156874&CATEGORIE=100
>
>
> Alvin Swiney
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Forest Aten <forestaten@-----.com>
> To: 'The Klarinet Mailing List' <klarinet@-----.com>
> Sent: Fri, Aug 19, 2011 5:17 am
> Subject: Re: [kl] Rant against a trend in pad work
>
>
> Alvin
>
> Valentino pads don't come on "big sheets"....and you don't have to "punch them
> out". This makes me wonder if we are
> talking about the same pad brand.
>
> Valentino pads, when properly seated are not "exposed and dangling". I have
> never seen or experienced the edge of a
> Valentino pad curling or warping...over time.
>
> Anthony and Stanley were "old farts" (I'm getting there).....so I suspect they
> used the best available
> 'at...the...time', which would have been double bladder and cork pads.
>
> I suggest you purchase some Valentino pads and give them so that you can get up
> to snuff with the product. I would
> welcome your review after you've worked with and observed the long term
> reliability and performance of Valentino's great
> pad.
>
> Forest
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: sfdr@-----.com]
> > Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 7:42 AM
> > To: klarinet@-----.com
> > Subject: Re: [kl] Rant against a trend in pad work
> >
> >
> > Hi Keith,
> > I purchased my first Magnehelic testing machine in 1978 from Hugh cooper
> and Bob Williams of the
> > Detroit Symphony.
> > When I saw my former apprentice Wolfgang Lohff a few months ago, he showed me
> a Buffter R-13 with the
> > new pads
> > that he had invented. I was quite curious so I took a Moennig style cork pad
> clarinet and plugged the
> > finger holes and
> > lower tenon of the top joint with test tube corks. I used corks to eliminate
> the finger pressure
> > factor. I then took a Lohff
> > pad clarinet and plugged it in the same manner. When I tried to pull a soft
> vacuum on the Lohff
> > clarinet I got no suction
> > at all. However when I pulled a soft vacuum on the cork pad clarinet, the
> vacuum lasted for 2 minutes.
> > I have never used Valentino pads because they remind me of paper dolls. They
> come on a big sheet and
> > you have to
> > punch them out. In the German-Moennig school of padding, the pad should always
> rest on the rim of the
> > the key cup for
> > support. The trouble with straight or trianglular shaped pads if that that are
> only attached on the
> > bottom surface so the
> > edges are left exposed and dangling. This exposed pad edge tends to curl and
> warp over time.
> > Do you know what type of pads Anthony Gigliotti or Stanley Hasty used? Just
> wondering?
> >
> >
> > Alvin Swiney
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Keith Bowen <keith.bowen@-----.com>
> > To: 'The Klarinet Mailing List' <klarinet@-----.com>
> > Sent: Fri, Aug 19, 2011 1:11 am
> > Subject: Re: [kl] Rant against a trend in pad work
> >
> >
> > The problem with the vacuum test (besides being very unquantitative - how
> > hard can you suck? What's the finger pressure? At what pressure do you judge
> > it has failed?) is that it is pushing the wrong way. Sucking will obviously
> > improve a seal, but blowing will find any leaks that are masked by the
> > sucking.
> >
> > A better test for leaks, now available, is a gentle blowing pressure,
> > analogous to actual playing. The Magnehelic tester does just that. (See for
> > example
> > http://www.jlsmithco.com/LEAK-LOCATING/236044EU-MAG-MACHINE-EUROPEAN-VERSION
> > ). This is even sensitive enough to tell the difference between the sealing
> > qualities of dry and wet fingers.
> >
> > Using this tester I am able to fit synthetic Valentino pads (regular or
> > Master) to as good or better seal than leather pads that have been fitted by
> > the best German manufacturers. Like Forest, my experience is that the
> > longevity is far better than bladder pads and probably similar to cork and a
> > little better than leather.
> >
> > I've only had my Lohff pads for about six months though they have shown no
> > signs of deterioration. However I have seen instruments that have had years
> > of hard professional use with no problems.
> >
> > Valentino pads will conveniently bed in if heated gently after fitting. But
> > this is no longer the recommended method; rather, they should be fitted and
> > floated just as a trad pad. Once again I reiterate that good quality,
> > well-adjusted keywork is essential. We are not talking student clarinets.
> > Nor are we talking about soft, spongy pads that take up all the leaks, for a
> > time.
> >
> > Keith Bowen
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: sfdr@-----.com]
> > Sent: 19 August 2011 01:27
> > To: klarinet@-----.com
> > Subject: Re: [kl] Rant against a trend in pad work
> >
> > Hi Forest,
> > I have overhauled over 3,000 clarinets in my career as a repairman. As an
> > apprentice, I watched Hans Moennig Overhaul instruments for Robert
> > Marcellus, Harold Wright and David Weber. He always used handmade cork pads
> > on the top joint and double skinned bladder pads on the lower joints made
> > with compressed felt. He tested his work by closing all of the tone holes
> > and pulling a lip vacuum on the joints. Mr. Moennig would then walk across
> > the room numerous times to see how long it would take for the the vacuum to
> > to dissipate. The cork pad Moennig overhaul vacuum usually lasted two or
> > three minutes. He felt that a good pad seat in cork would improve over time
> > and last for many years. However, pads made of foam like material have a
> > tendency to loose their seat over time. This three minute vacuum standard is
> > the one that I have used throughout my career.
> > I have seen the Lohff vinyl pad as well as the Valentino pads. In my
> > experience, they tend to collapse, shrink and loose their shape after six
> > months of playing. I have also had problems with getting them to seal for
> > more than 15 seconds. I inherited two clarinets that once belonged to Ralph
> > McLane. These instruments were overhauled by Hans Moennig in 1950. After all
> > these years, they still will hold a 90 second vacuum.
> >
> >
> > Just another opinion,
> >
> >
> > Alvin Swiney
> > 3126 W Cary St. #237
> > Richmond, VA 23221
> > sfdr@-----.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Forest Aten <forestaten@-----.com>
> > To: 'The Klarinet Mailing List' <klarinet@-----.com>
> > Sent: Thu, Aug 18, 2011 10:41 am
> > Subject: Re: [kl] Rant against a trend in pad work
> >
> >
> > Clark
> >
> > I haven't experienced the things you describe in/on my synthetic pad
> > clarinets.
> > I do all of my own pad/repair work and
> > have all (about 15) clarinets done in Valentino pads. They are tight and the
> >
> > sound off the pads even and clean. I have
> > no issues with legato playing, using synthetic pads. Also, because the pads
> > seal
> > so very well, technique is cleaner and
> > sound is quicker out the instrument. And the work is "clean". :-)
> > I use Valentino's on my bass as well....but only up to 20mm pads. Anything
> > larger are extremely difficult to seat and
> > the pad slap is not acceptable.
> >
> > Your comment about "easier to install" might be misleading. When moving from
> >
> > traditional pads to the "stiff" Greenback
> > Valentino pad, it requires complete removal of all key work, this to ensure
> > absolute clean pad cups at installation.
> > This takes a lot of time. In addition, the placement of the pad in the cup
> > and
> > adjustment of key work to "get it
> > right"....takes careful consideration....just as careful as using
> > traditional
> > pads. In some cases, it's better to use
> > the traditional Valentino and use the traditional "float" method.
> >
> > I have never experienced "noise" from a Valentino pad...or perhaps I should
> > say,
> > "not any more noise than from a
> > traditional felt/bladder pad".
> >
> > All Valentino pads that I've ever used, have very stiff cardboard backing.
> > ????
> > I don't understand your "eventually
> > creep up into any gaps" statement??
> >
> > I'll sure agree with your observation about the lack of "artist level repair
> >
> > work". Not much of that going on....
> >
> > Forest
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Clark Fobes [mailto:claroneman@-----.net]
> > > Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 11:40 AM
> > > To: klarinet@-----.com
> > > Subject: [kl] Rant against a trend in pad work
> > >
> > > I so rarely post to the Klarinet any more, but I have been seeing a
> > disturbing
> > trend in clarinet
> > > repair that I want to address. This is the use of synthetic pads for ALL
> > pads
> > on the clarinet.
> > >
> > > I want to say first that I am not against the use of synthetic pads
> > entirely-
> > they have a use,
> > > particularly in the upper joint pads of the bass clarinet. They are
> > probably
> > a good idea for student
> > > instruments that receive a lot of abuse. But for professional level
> > clarinets
> > I only use them in two
> > > places: the Ab/Eb pad on the lower joint and the F# ring key pad on the
> > upper
> > joint (opens over the
> > > throat G tone hole). Synthetic pads are not a good choice for pads that
> > are
> > sprung open.
> > >
> > > Here are several reasons. Once synthetic pads are seated they have almost
> > no
> > give at all. In the case
> > > of the long E/B of the lower joint, this can cause leaks unless the
> > mechanism
> > has absolutely no play
> > > and the F/C and E/B pads are in perfect synch. Because synthetic pads have
> >
> > almost no "give" or
> > > "cushion" they slap the tone hole and it is virtually impossible to make a
> >
> > good legato when slurring
> > > from G/D to E/B. The very crisp edge of the pads create turbulence and
> > noise
> > unless the pad is
> > > adjusted very high from the tone hole, which changes the pitch (towards
> > sharpness) and creates too
> > > much distance for facile playing. And finally, most of the synthetic pads
> > I
> > have seen do not have a
> > > stiff backing, consequently the pad cup must be filled with glue
> > completely
> > (that technique seems to
> > > escape most repair men) other wise the synthetic pad will eventually creep
> > up
> > into any gaps in the
> > > glue and will eventually leak.
> > >
> > > A good pad job should be quiet, have a soft feel and look CLEAN.
> > >
> > > I understand the trend. Synthetic pads are much easier to install than
> > traditional pads and do not
> > > require the skill or the sensitivity required to "float" a skin or leather
> > pad
> > and the job can be done
> > > faster.
> > >
> > > I am distressed at the lack of artist level repair work in general. I hope
> >
> > that players will start
> > > looking more carefully at the work they are paying for and demand a higher
> >
> > standard.
> > >
> > > Clark W Fobes
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Klarinet mailing list
> > > Klarinet@-----.com
> > > To do darn near anything to your subscription, go to:
> > > http://klarinet-list.serve-music.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Klarinet mailing list
> > Klarinet@-----.com
> > To do darn near anything to your subscription, go to:
> > http://klarinet-list.serve-music.com
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Klarinet mailing list
> > Klarinet@-----.com
> > To do darn near anything to your subscription, go to:
> > http://klarinet-list.serve-music.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Klarinet mailing list
> > Klarinet@-----.com
> > To do darn near anything to your subscription, go to:
> > http://klarinet-list.serve-music.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Klarinet mailing list
> > Klarinet@-----.com
> > To do darn near anything to your subscription, go to:
> > http://klarinet-list.serve-music.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Klarinet mailing list
> Klarinet@-----.com
> To do darn near anything to your subscription, go to:
> http://klarinet-list.serve-music.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Klarinet mailing list
> Klarinet@-----.com
> To do darn near anything to your subscription, go to:
> http://klarinet-list.serve-music.com
_______________________________________________
Klarinet mailing list
Klarinet@-----.com
To do darn near anything to your subscription, go to:
http://klarinet-list.serve-music.com
