Klarinet Archive - Posting 000164.txt from 2011/08

From: "Forest Aten" <forestaten@-----.com>
Subj: Re: [kl] Rant against a trend in pad work
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 09:16:41 -0400

Alvin

Valentino pads don't come on "big sheets"....and you don't have to "punch them out". This makes me wonder if we are
talking about the same pad brand.

Valentino pads, when properly seated are not "exposed and dangling". I have never seen or experienced the edge of a
Valentino pad curling or warping...over time.

Anthony and Stanley were "old farts" (I'm getting there).....so I suspect they used the best available
'at...the...time', which would have been double bladder and cork pads.

I suggest you purchase some Valentino pads and give them so that you can get up to snuff with the product. I would
welcome your review after you've worked with and observed the long term reliability and performance of Valentino's great
pad.

Forest

> -----Original Message-----
> From: sfdr@-----.com]
> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 7:42 AM
> To: klarinet@-----.com
> Subject: Re: [kl] Rant against a trend in pad work
>
>
> Hi Keith,
> I purchased my first Magnehelic testing machine in 1978 from Hugh cooper and Bob Williams of the
> Detroit Symphony.
> When I saw my former apprentice Wolfgang Lohff a few months ago, he showed me a Buffter R-13 with the
> new pads
> that he had invented. I was quite curious so I took a Moennig style cork pad clarinet and plugged the
> finger holes and
> lower tenon of the top joint with test tube corks. I used corks to eliminate the finger pressure
> factor. I then took a Lohff
> pad clarinet and plugged it in the same manner. When I tried to pull a soft vacuum on the Lohff
> clarinet I got no suction
> at all. However when I pulled a soft vacuum on the cork pad clarinet, the vacuum lasted for 2 minutes.
> I have never used Valentino pads because they remind me of paper dolls. They come on a big sheet and
> you have to
> punch them out. In the German-Moennig school of padding, the pad should always rest on the rim of the
> the key cup for
> support. The trouble with straight or trianglular shaped pads if that that are only attached on the
> bottom surface so the
> edges are left exposed and dangling. This exposed pad edge tends to curl and warp over time.
> Do you know what type of pads Anthony Gigliotti or Stanley Hasty used? Just wondering?
>
>
> Alvin Swiney
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Keith Bowen <keith.bowen@-----.com>
> To: 'The Klarinet Mailing List' <klarinet@-----.com>
> Sent: Fri, Aug 19, 2011 1:11 am
> Subject: Re: [kl] Rant against a trend in pad work
>
>
> The problem with the vacuum test (besides being very unquantitative - how
> hard can you suck? What's the finger pressure? At what pressure do you judge
> it has failed?) is that it is pushing the wrong way. Sucking will obviously
> improve a seal, but blowing will find any leaks that are masked by the
> sucking.
>
> A better test for leaks, now available, is a gentle blowing pressure,
> analogous to actual playing. The Magnehelic tester does just that. (See for
> example
> http://www.jlsmithco.com/LEAK-LOCATING/236044EU-MAG-MACHINE-EUROPEAN-VERSION
> ). This is even sensitive enough to tell the difference between the sealing
> qualities of dry and wet fingers.
>
> Using this tester I am able to fit synthetic Valentino pads (regular or
> Master) to as good or better seal than leather pads that have been fitted by
> the best German manufacturers. Like Forest, my experience is that the
> longevity is far better than bladder pads and probably similar to cork and a
> little better than leather.
>
> I've only had my Lohff pads for about six months though they have shown no
> signs of deterioration. However I have seen instruments that have had years
> of hard professional use with no problems.
>
> Valentino pads will conveniently bed in if heated gently after fitting. But
> this is no longer the recommended method; rather, they should be fitted and
> floated just as a trad pad. Once again I reiterate that good quality,
> well-adjusted keywork is essential. We are not talking student clarinets.
> Nor are we talking about soft, spongy pads that take up all the leaks, for a
> time.
>
> Keith Bowen
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sfdr@-----.com]
> Sent: 19 August 2011 01:27
> To: klarinet@-----.com
> Subject: Re: [kl] Rant against a trend in pad work
>
> Hi Forest,
> I have overhauled over 3,000 clarinets in my career as a repairman. As an
> apprentice, I watched Hans Moennig Overhaul instruments for Robert
> Marcellus, Harold Wright and David Weber. He always used handmade cork pads
> on the top joint and double skinned bladder pads on the lower joints made
> with compressed felt. He tested his work by closing all of the tone holes
> and pulling a lip vacuum on the joints. Mr. Moennig would then walk across
> the room numerous times to see how long it would take for the the vacuum to
> to dissipate. The cork pad Moennig overhaul vacuum usually lasted two or
> three minutes. He felt that a good pad seat in cork would improve over time
> and last for many years. However, pads made of foam like material have a
> tendency to loose their seat over time. This three minute vacuum standard is
> the one that I have used throughout my career.
> I have seen the Lohff vinyl pad as well as the Valentino pads. In my
> experience, they tend to collapse, shrink and loose their shape after six
> months of playing. I have also had problems with getting them to seal for
> more than 15 seconds. I inherited two clarinets that once belonged to Ralph
> McLane. These instruments were overhauled by Hans Moennig in 1950. After all
> these years, they still will hold a 90 second vacuum.
>
>
> Just another opinion,
>
>
> Alvin Swiney
> 3126 W Cary St. #237
> Richmond, VA 23221
> sfdr@-----.com
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Forest Aten <forestaten@-----.com>
> To: 'The Klarinet Mailing List' <klarinet@-----.com>
> Sent: Thu, Aug 18, 2011 10:41 am
> Subject: Re: [kl] Rant against a trend in pad work
>
>
> Clark
>
> I haven't experienced the things you describe in/on my synthetic pad
> clarinets.
> I do all of my own pad/repair work and
> have all (about 15) clarinets done in Valentino pads. They are tight and the
>
> sound off the pads even and clean. I have
> no issues with legato playing, using synthetic pads. Also, because the pads
> seal
> so very well, technique is cleaner and
> sound is quicker out the instrument. And the work is "clean". :-)
> I use Valentino's on my bass as well....but only up to 20mm pads. Anything
> larger are extremely difficult to seat and
> the pad slap is not acceptable.
>
> Your comment about "easier to install" might be misleading. When moving from
>
> traditional pads to the "stiff" Greenback
> Valentino pad, it requires complete removal of all key work, this to ensure
> absolute clean pad cups at installation.
> This takes a lot of time. In addition, the placement of the pad in the cup
> and
> adjustment of key work to "get it
> right"....takes careful consideration....just as careful as using
> traditional
> pads. In some cases, it's better to use
> the traditional Valentino and use the traditional "float" method.
>
> I have never experienced "noise" from a Valentino pad...or perhaps I should
> say,
> "not any more noise than from a
> traditional felt/bladder pad".
>
> All Valentino pads that I've ever used, have very stiff cardboard backing.
> ????
> I don't understand your "eventually
> creep up into any gaps" statement??
>
> I'll sure agree with your observation about the lack of "artist level repair
>
> work". Not much of that going on....
>
> Forest
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Clark Fobes [mailto:claroneman@-----.net]
> > Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 11:40 AM
> > To: klarinet@-----.com
> > Subject: [kl] Rant against a trend in pad work
> >
> > I so rarely post to the Klarinet any more, but I have been seeing a
> disturbing
> trend in clarinet
> > repair that I want to address. This is the use of synthetic pads for ALL
> pads
> on the clarinet.
> >
> > I want to say first that I am not against the use of synthetic pads
> entirely-
> they have a use,
> > particularly in the upper joint pads of the bass clarinet. They are
> probably
> a good idea for student
> > instruments that receive a lot of abuse. But for professional level
> clarinets
> I only use them in two
> > places: the Ab/Eb pad on the lower joint and the F# ring key pad on the
> upper
> joint (opens over the
> > throat G tone hole). Synthetic pads are not a good choice for pads that
> are
> sprung open.
> >
> > Here are several reasons. Once synthetic pads are seated they have almost
> no
> give at all. In the case
> > of the long E/B of the lower joint, this can cause leaks unless the
> mechanism
> has absolutely no play
> > and the F/C and E/B pads are in perfect synch. Because synthetic pads have
>
> almost no "give" or
> > "cushion" they slap the tone hole and it is virtually impossible to make a
>
> good legato when slurring
> > from G/D to E/B. The very crisp edge of the pads create turbulence and
> noise
> unless the pad is
> > adjusted very high from the tone hole, which changes the pitch (towards
> sharpness) and creates too
> > much distance for facile playing. And finally, most of the synthetic pads
> I
> have seen do not have a
> > stiff backing, consequently the pad cup must be filled with glue
> completely
> (that technique seems to
> > escape most repair men) other wise the synthetic pad will eventually creep
> up
> into any gaps in the
> > glue and will eventually leak.
> >
> > A good pad job should be quiet, have a soft feel and look CLEAN.
> >
> > I understand the trend. Synthetic pads are much easier to install than
> traditional pads and do not
> > require the skill or the sensitivity required to "float" a skin or leather
> pad
> and the job can be done
> > faster.
> >
> > I am distressed at the lack of artist level repair work in general. I hope
>
> that players will start
> > looking more carefully at the work they are paying for and demand a higher
>
> standard.
> >
> > Clark W Fobes
> > _______________________________________________
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