Klarinet Archive - Posting 000162.txt from 2011/08

From: "Keith Bowen" <keith.bowen@-----.com>
Subj: Re: [kl] Rant against a trend in pad work
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 05:10:54 -0400

The problem with the vacuum test (besides being very unquantitative - how
hard can you suck? What's the finger pressure? At what pressure do you judge
it has failed?) is that it is pushing the wrong way. Sucking will obviously
improve a seal, but blowing will find any leaks that are masked by the
sucking.

A better test for leaks, now available, is a gentle blowing pressure,
analogous to actual playing. The Magnehelic tester does just that. (See for
example
http://www.jlsmithco.com/LEAK-LOCATING/236044EU-MAG-MACHINE-EUROPEAN-VERSION
). This is even sensitive enough to tell the difference between the sealing
qualities of dry and wet fingers.

Using this tester I am able to fit synthetic Valentino pads (regular or
Master) to as good or better seal than leather pads that have been fitted by
the best German manufacturers. Like Forest, my experience is that the
longevity is far better than bladder pads and probably similar to cork and a
little better than leather.

I've only had my Lohff pads for about six months though they have shown no
signs of deterioration. However I have seen instruments that have had years
of hard professional use with no problems.

Valentino pads will conveniently bed in if heated gently after fitting. But
this is no longer the recommended method; rather, they should be fitted and
floated just as a trad pad. Once again I reiterate that good quality,
well-adjusted keywork is essential. We are not talking student clarinets.
Nor are we talking about soft, spongy pads that take up all the leaks, for a
time.

Keith Bowen

-----Original Message-----
From: sfdr@-----.com]
Sent: 19 August 2011 01:27
To: klarinet@-----.com
Subject: Re: [kl] Rant against a trend in pad work

Hi Forest,
I have overhauled over 3,000 clarinets in my career as a repairman. As an
apprentice, I watched Hans Moennig Overhaul instruments for Robert
Marcellus, Harold Wright and David Weber. He always used handmade cork pads
on the top joint and double skinned bladder pads on the lower joints made
with compressed felt. He tested his work by closing all of the tone holes
and pulling a lip vacuum on the joints. Mr. Moennig would then walk across
the room numerous times to see how long it would take for the the vacuum to
to dissipate. The cork pad Moennig overhaul vacuum usually lasted two or
three minutes. He felt that a good pad seat in cork would improve over time
and last for many years. However, pads made of foam like material have a
tendency to loose their seat over time. This three minute vacuum standard is
the one that I have used throughout my career.
I have seen the Lohff vinyl pad as well as the Valentino pads. In my
experience, they tend to collapse, shrink and loose their shape after six
months of playing. I have also had problems with getting them to seal for
more than 15 seconds. I inherited two clarinets that once belonged to Ralph
McLane. These instruments were overhauled by Hans Moennig in 1950. After all
these years, they still will hold a 90 second vacuum.

Just another opinion,

Alvin Swiney
3126 W Cary St. #237
Richmond, VA 23221
sfdr@-----.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Forest Aten <forestaten@-----.com>
To: 'The Klarinet Mailing List' <klarinet@-----.com>
Sent: Thu, Aug 18, 2011 10:41 am
Subject: Re: [kl] Rant against a trend in pad work

Clark

I haven't experienced the things you describe in/on my synthetic pad
clarinets.
I do all of my own pad/repair work and
have all (about 15) clarinets done in Valentino pads. They are tight and the

sound off the pads even and clean. I have
no issues with legato playing, using synthetic pads. Also, because the pads
seal
so very well, technique is cleaner and
sound is quicker out the instrument. And the work is "clean". :-)
I use Valentino's on my bass as well....but only up to 20mm pads. Anything
larger are extremely difficult to seat and
the pad slap is not acceptable.

Your comment about "easier to install" might be misleading. When moving from

traditional pads to the "stiff" Greenback
Valentino pad, it requires complete removal of all key work, this to ensure
absolute clean pad cups at installation.
This takes a lot of time. In addition, the placement of the pad in the cup
and
adjustment of key work to "get it
right"....takes careful consideration....just as careful as using
traditional
pads. In some cases, it's better to use
the traditional Valentino and use the traditional "float" method.

I have never experienced "noise" from a Valentino pad...or perhaps I should
say,
"not any more noise than from a
traditional felt/bladder pad".

All Valentino pads that I've ever used, have very stiff cardboard backing.
????
I don't understand your "eventually
creep up into any gaps" statement??

I'll sure agree with your observation about the lack of "artist level repair

work". Not much of that going on....

Forest

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Clark Fobes [mailto:claroneman@-----.net]
> Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 11:40 AM
> To: klarinet@-----.com
> Subject: [kl] Rant against a trend in pad work
>
> I so rarely post to the Klarinet any more, but I have been seeing a
disturbing
trend in clarinet
> repair that I want to address. This is the use of synthetic pads for ALL
pads
on the clarinet.
>
> I want to say first that I am not against the use of synthetic pads
entirely-
they have a use,
> particularly in the upper joint pads of the bass clarinet. They are
probably
a good idea for student
> instruments that receive a lot of abuse. But for professional level
clarinets
I only use them in two
> places: the Ab/Eb pad on the lower joint and the F# ring key pad on the
upper
joint (opens over the
> throat G tone hole). Synthetic pads are not a good choice for pads that
are
sprung open.
>
> Here are several reasons. Once synthetic pads are seated they have almost
no
give at all. In the case
> of the long E/B of the lower joint, this can cause leaks unless the
mechanism
has absolutely no play
> and the F/C and E/B pads are in perfect synch. Because synthetic pads have

almost no "give" or
> "cushion" they slap the tone hole and it is virtually impossible to make a

good legato when slurring
> from G/D to E/B. The very crisp edge of the pads create turbulence and
noise
unless the pad is
> adjusted very high from the tone hole, which changes the pitch (towards
sharpness) and creates too
> much distance for facile playing. And finally, most of the synthetic pads
I
have seen do not have a
> stiff backing, consequently the pad cup must be filled with glue
completely
(that technique seems to
> escape most repair men) other wise the synthetic pad will eventually creep
up
into any gaps in the
> glue and will eventually leak.
>
> A good pad job should be quiet, have a soft feel and look CLEAN.
>
> I understand the trend. Synthetic pads are much easier to install than
traditional pads and do not
> require the skill or the sensitivity required to "float" a skin or leather
pad
and the job can be done
> faster.
>
> I am distressed at the lack of artist level repair work in general. I hope

that players will start
> looking more carefully at the work they are paying for and demand a higher

standard.
>
> Clark W Fobes
> _______________________________________________
> Klarinet mailing list
> Klarinet@-----.com
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> http://klarinet-list.serve-music.com

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