Klarinet Archive - Posting 000143.txt from 2010/11

From: "Tom Servinsky" <tompiano@-----.net>
Subj: Re: [kl] RES: Orchestral Pitch
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 19:23:57 -0500

Keith
One correction to your comments about "tuners". By tuners I'm assuming you
re referring to the basic electronic tuning devices that most musicians
carry with them. Pitch on those tuning devices are not tuned to equaled
tempered scales. They are in fact set chromatically to the international
standards of pitch which should not be confused with as an equaled tempered
scale. Two entirely different relationships.
My other hat that I where is that of concert piano technician and deal with
these issues daily. I'm also a former Certified Tuning Examiner for the
Piano Technicians Guild.
With regard to your #3 point about finding the correct tuning within a
triad, you are referring to "Just" tuning. Your points are correct as the
tuning basis is completely relative to whatever the chord is being built
upon. If a section of the orchestra is giving the low G and they happen to
be the high side, then all relationships with the given triad need to adjust
for the given chord. Which is the very reason that orchestras can float up
and down on pitch throughout a given work.
Tom Servinsky, RPT

----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith Bowen" <keith.bowen@-----.com>
To: "'The Klarinet Mailing List'" <klarinet@-----.com>
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: [kl] RES: Orchestral Pitch

> Martin
>
> I would still maintain that it is very stupid! The reasons are as follows.
>
> 1. The overall pitch normally does change slightly during a performance,
> maybe as instruments warm up, maybe as the temperature of the hall or
> outside changes. Strings go sharp as temperature rises, wind goes flat.
> Maybe they average, maybe one 'side' wins. But in any event it is
> imperceptible to the audience as long as all the players try to stay in
> tune
> with each other. Rather than listen to the oboe, the better technique is
> to
> listen to the bass instruments as they are the fundamental of the chord.
> If
> the oboe or anyone is tuning with the needle of the meter and not with
> their
> ears, THEY will be out of tune.
>
> 2. Tuners usually show equal temperament; thus the needle will anyway only
> be right at A and its octaves. Orchestras don't play equal temperament.
>
> 3. More subtly, a pitch depends on its position in a chord. Here's an
> example to show, with two players with good ears. First they play a
> perfect
> fifth, C to G, and tune it so that it sounds good, ie beatless. Then the
> second player changes from G to B and again makes it beatless (by the
> second
> player tuning his note) - an in-tune major seventh. Then the first player
> changes to a G, being careful to play the same pitch as the second player
> originally did. The second player now retunes his B to sound well in tune
> (beatless) with the G. He will have to lower the pitch quite audibly.
>
> The reason is that the tonality has changed; B is now the third of the
> dominant chord rather than the seventh of the tonic, and the pitches at
> which one gets beatless (in tune) chords have changed with the key. This
> is
> of course another consequence of five octaves not equalling eight fifths.
>
> When we play with string or wind instruments we are doing this sort of
> thing
> all the time. The oboe a'=440 might start off as the seventh of a work in
> B
> major. If the work eventually modulates to Bb she is now playing the third
> of the dominant, and it will almost certainly be a different pitch.
>
> See Eskelin's book for more details.
>
> Keith
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Baxter [mailto:martinbaxter1@-----.com]
> Sent: 12 November 2010 16:21
> To: The Klarinet Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [kl] RES: Orchestral Pitch
>
>
> On 12 Nov 2010, at 12:26, Keith Bowen wrote:
>
> Claiming the whole orchestra was flat is as stupid as the first oboe
> pointing to their tuner and saying that everyone else is out of tune.
> Keith
> If the Orchestra's tuning note is taken from the oboe, and the oboist is
> in
> tune with his tuner I would maintain that there is nothing stupid in the
> oboist's contention.
> Martin
>
>
>
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