Klarinet Archive - Posting 000364.txt from 2010/09

From: "Kent Krive" <k.krive@-----.com>
Subj: Re: [kl] Vinegar turns mpc green
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 12:28:27 -0400

A one-part acid to four-parts water will clean plaque rapidly enough that
one needn't suffer unpleasant-to-dangerous exposure. It's more of a
challenge to handle and store the acid...

Kent
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jennifer Jones" <helen.jennifer@-----.com>
To: "The Klarinet Mailing List" <klarinet@-----.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 2:06 AM
Subject: Re: [kl] Vinegar turns mpc green

On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 10:48 PM, Bill Hausmann <bhausmann1@-----.net>
wrote:
> Muriatic acid is what we typically use for cleaning mouthpieces and
> flushing
> brass instruments and cleaning woodwind keys before repadding. You can
> leave a mouthpiece in it for quite a long time without damage, as happens
> accidentally from time to time. I don't know the concentration myself.

I don't believe that -Jennifer.

> Bill Hausmann
>
> If you have to mic a saxophone, the rest of the band is TOO LOUD!
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jennifer Jones [mailto:helen.jennifer@-----.com]
>> Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 12:13 AM
>> To: The Klarinet Mailing List
>> Subject: [kl] Vinegar turns mpc green
>>
>> For the record:
>>
>> A ~1 hour soak in a 5% solution of room temperature (~78F) distilled
>> white vinegar did not remove the white/tan deposits and turned my
>> Selmer C85 mouthpiece green. In addition to turning the region below
>> the liquid green, fumes also turned the portion above the liquid line
>> green. The portion of the submerged facing also became paler. My
>> mouthpiece now has a vinegar induced "suntan". The cork was not
>> submerged.
>>
>> The region traditionally under the ligature did not turn colors nearly
>> as much as the rest (incl. the portion above the liquid line). This
>> and the fact that this mp has not been out in the sun much argues
>> against a purely sun-induced color change of mouthpieces. The storage
>> of the mouthpiece with the ligature in place probably restricts oxygen
>> exposure of the mouthpiece, such that the region under the ligature
>> does not receive as much exposure to oxygen and hence does not rot and
>> turn green to the extent that the exposed portions do. Vinegar must
>> either accelerate rotting of the deteriorated portion, leech materials
>> out or otherwise change its color.
>>
>> The mouthpiece was purchased in late 1998 or early 1999. It now
>> smells like vinegar and my old greened vulcanized rubber mouthpiece
>> that it replaced. There was no residual vinegar taste, but there was
>> a mild smell. I also washed the mp with soap and water after using
>> vinegar.
>>
>> Given that lime-away and CLR are stronger mixtures of acids, it does
>> not make sense to try them on the mouthpiece, as it will probably turn
>> greener.
>>
>> -Jennifer
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On hard rubber degradation:
>> incl. continuing sulfur chemistry, oxidative degradation, as well as
>> catalytic effects of internal and external stresses, heat and light
>> http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2003/12/000374.txt
>>
>> Post by Lelia Loban on a hard rubber clarinet that has relatively
>> untarnished silver keys:
>> http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/1998/11/000487.txt
>> It is generally understood that the sulfur in vulcanized rubber
>> tarnishes silver. Lelia questions the chemical differences between
>> hard and soft rubber. She has found that soft rubber cause a lot of
>> tarnish whereas hard rubber causes little or none, based upon silver
>> trimming on hard rubber pens and hard rubber sax and clarinet
>> mouthpieces with silver ligatures that do not have tarnish that
>> appears to be caused by the rubber. I think it may be a matter of the
>> extent of cross-linking.
>>
>> This post indicates that acids reverse the color change:
>> http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2004/05/000519.txt
>> I argue that this is wrong, because my mouthpiece turned green when I
>> put it in acid. There is further argument that the reaction causing
>> the color change can be reversed. I argue that the reactions in
>> rotting rubber cannot be completely reversed because of oxygen induced
>> breakage of the carbon chains of the rubber molecules.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The searches conducted:
>> hard rubber sulfur mouthpiece
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> My post on mouthpiece cleaning with ingredients of lime away and CLR:
>> http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2010/09/000221.txt
>>
>> My post on vulcanized rubber deterioration with jumbled thoughts about
>> the mechanism:
>> http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2010/09/000114.txt
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