Klarinet Archive - Posting 000361.txt from 2010/09

From: "Bill Hausmann" <bhausmann1@-----.net>
Subj: Re: [kl] Vinegar turns mpc green
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 11:21:59 -0400

You can't leave brass instruments in it very long or it will loosen the
lacquer. Five minutes is OK. But I must admit, if things fall to the
bottom of the barrel, we fish them out with a long-handled scoop, not our
hands and arms! And, of course, we wash the mouthpieces with soap and water
afterwards.

Bill Hausmann

If you have to mic a saxophone, the rest of the band is TOO LOUD!

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Charles Levine [mailto:chardy2@-----.com]
> Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 9:48 AM
> To: The Klarinet Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [kl] Vinegar turns mpc green
>
> When it was suggested to use on my trombone slide, I was warned not
> toget it
> on anything with laquer or on my hands. Put it in my mouth? aaaargh
> charlie
>
> On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 9:28 AM, Karl Krelove
> <karlkrelove@-----.net>wrote:
>
> > Apparently, that's what Bill's shop does, and within his experience,
> > nothing
> > bad has happened. What's the basis/experience for your so strongly
> contrary
> > advice?
> >
> > Karl
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Charles Levine [mailto:chardy2@-----.com]
> > Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 6:57 AM
> > To: The Klarinet Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [kl] Vinegar turns mpc green
> >
> > Muriatic acid on your mouthpiece? NO NO NO NO NOOOOOOOOOO
> >
> > On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 2:06 AM, Jennifer Jones
> > <helen.jennifer@-----.com>wrote:
> >
> > > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 10:48 PM, Bill Hausmann
> <bhausmann1@-----.net>
> > > wrote:
> > > > Muriatic acid is what we typically use for cleaning mouthpieces
> and
> > > flushing
> > > > brass instruments and cleaning woodwind keys before repadding.
> You can
> > > > leave a mouthpiece in it for quite a long time without damage, as
> > happens
> > > > accidentally from time to time. I don't know the concentration
> myself.
> > >
> > > I don't believe that -Jennifer.
> > >
> > > > Bill Hausmann
> > > >
> > > > If you have to mic a saxophone, the rest of the band is TOO LOUD!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > >> From: Jennifer Jones [mailto:helen.jennifer@-----.com]
> > > >> Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 12:13 AM
> > > >> To: The Klarinet Mailing List
> > > >> Subject: [kl] Vinegar turns mpc green
> > > >>
> > > >> For the record:
> > > >>
> > > >> A ~1 hour soak in a 5% solution of room temperature (~78F)
> distilled
> > > >> white vinegar did not remove the white/tan deposits and turned
> my
> > > >> Selmer C85 mouthpiece green. In addition to turning the region
> below
> > > >> the liquid green, fumes also turned the portion above the liquid
> line
> > > >> green. The portion of the submerged facing also became paler.
> My
> > > >> mouthpiece now has a vinegar induced "suntan". The cork was not
> > > >> submerged.
> > > >>
> > > >> The region traditionally under the ligature did not turn colors
> nearly
> > > >> as much as the rest (incl. the portion above the liquid line).
> This
> > > >> and the fact that this mp has not been out in the sun much
> argues
> > > >> against a purely sun-induced color change of mouthpieces. The
> storage
> > > >> of the mouthpiece with the ligature in place probably restricts
> oxygen
> > > >> exposure of the mouthpiece, such that the region under the
> ligature
> > > >> does not receive as much exposure to oxygen and hence does not
> rot and
> > > >> turn green to the extent that the exposed portions do. Vinegar
> must
> > > >> either accelerate rotting of the deteriorated portion, leech
> materials
> > > >> out or otherwise change its color.
> > > >>
> > > >> The mouthpiece was purchased in late 1998 or early 1999. It now
> > > >> smells like vinegar and my old greened vulcanized rubber
> mouthpiece
> > > >> that it replaced. There was no residual vinegar taste, but
> there was
> > > >> a mild smell. I also washed the mp with soap and water after
> using
> > > >> vinegar.
> > > >>
> > > >> Given that lime-away and CLR are stronger mixtures of acids, it
> does
> > > >> not make sense to try them on the mouthpiece, as it will
> probably turn
> > > >> greener.
> > > >>
> > > >> -Jennifer
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On hard rubber degradation:
> > > >> incl. continuing sulfur chemistry, oxidative degradation, as
> well as
> > > >> catalytic effects of internal and external stresses, heat and
> light
> > > >> http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2003/12/000374.txt
> > > >>
> > > >> Post by Lelia Loban on a hard rubber clarinet that has
> relatively
> > > >> untarnished silver keys:
> > > >> http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/1998/11/000487.txt
> > > >> It is generally understood that the sulfur in vulcanized rubber
> > > >> tarnishes silver. Lelia questions the chemical differences
> between
> > > >> hard and soft rubber. She has found that soft rubber cause a
> lot of
> > > >> tarnish whereas hard rubber causes little or none, based upon
> silver
> > > >> trimming on hard rubber pens and hard rubber sax and clarinet
> > > >> mouthpieces with silver ligatures that do not have tarnish that
> > > >> appears to be caused by the rubber. I think it may be a matter
> of the
> > > >> extent of cross-linking.
> > > >>
> > > >> This post indicates that acids reverse the color change:
> > > >> http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2004/05/000519.txt
> > > >> I argue that this is wrong, because my mouthpiece turned green
> when I
> > > >> put it in acid. There is further argument that the reaction
> causing
> > > >> the color change can be reversed. I argue that the reactions in
> > > >> rotting rubber cannot be completely reversed because of oxygen
> induced
> > > >> breakage of the carbon chains of the rubber molecules.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> The searches conducted:
> > > >> hard rubber sulfur mouthpiece
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> My post on mouthpiece cleaning with ingredients of lime away and
> CLR:
> > > >> http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2010/09/000221.txt
> > > >>
> > > >> My post on vulcanized rubber deterioration with jumbled thoughts
> about
> > > >> the mechanism:
> > > >> http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2010/09/000114.txt
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